4x4 Debate

[CliveV]

Gio Gio Gio - Calm down - read what I said

You say:-

"you talk of arrogance! and yet again make assumption! there is only a few times when cleaning an Maf actually works! did you bother to ask if i had done this? NO instead you show your arrogance, yet again."

In my experience cleaning it works every time.

And I made sure that I said "usually".

Methinks you protest to much!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

clive v, who are you talking to clive? oh yes you make speaches

to the crowd, if there is one. why? aren't you soppose to be answering me? or is it a case of taking pot shots, as YOUR arrogence is nothing to bragg of.

i have made a comment in your box concerning MAFs what did you

do go to a ford site for the answer? because you certainly

did not reply earlier and you were replying to everything else!

note i reply in the comment box on the maf issue, why? because

unlike some i am responding to you, not the crowd.

You are the one that plays to the crowd!!!!! you talk of arrogance!

 

[CliveV]

Steve - I obviously hit home here then!

How can you possibly say that toeing to the max with a Horse box is somehow subject to the attention of the boys in blue whereas your doing the same with a caravan is somehow quite OK.

You are really barking if you think that most people out there are going to drop their tyre pressures to get out of a sticky situation. And as Deano says if they then run like that on the tarmac they will have problems!

Like as has been said before - You seem to want a good "debate" but get all upset and weepy if the "debate" does not go your own way.

Like I say - I do not care what you tow with - that is your decision - why are you so determined to convince me that what I tow with is wrong?

 

[Guest]

4 X 4,moan moan moan.

My daughters neighbours here have latest Nissan 3000Z another has a Porsche Boxter, + others around the villages have 911,Caterham 7. Brabus M class, Alpina 5 series, two new Ferraris and two other close neighbours have two MG's and a MZ5

and a 500 something Mercedes Sports car. All seem to have families and kids so there are at least 3 or 4 cars at most of the homes.

So driving a 4 X 4 is anti social!

We have our cars bacause they suit us and we like them, so they are 4 x 4, so bl**dy what.

I saw a privately owned Hummer on the M4. Somebodys choice but who am I to question him when the government is pleased to take his or hers cash % of that purchase.

Germany makes some of the fastest performing cars on the road.

So Lutz where do 6.1L Brabus and the likes of Alpina, AMG and Schnitzer sit into the equation, I understand Porshe R & D facility and test track outside Stutgart have a customer Q car dept where customers pay huge sums to get higher performance Porsches than standard.

May be you can explain the deeper emotional afinity for turning 150 mph cars into 200 mph cars compared to even the most humble 4 x 4 purchase.

We have cars that we like and suit our needs, where we drive them and the fact that we use them to tow is our choice. The numptys screaming Chelsea Tractor in mine and others direction need to look carefuly at their own ways and that of others before they preach save the planet.

If the cancer doctor says that smoking habit is killing you, and then lights one up himself and says - But if you pay another pound a packet to the Government it'll be fine you would think he was mad.

UK fuel is about the most highly taxed in Europe with garages on the least profit. Yet the numpties say that 4 x 4 owners should pay more when they already do. Ordering a new car I get no health warning, no incentive not to buy it. All the governments are interested in is that they will get the tax.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Yep! - and it shows!

shows what? that you like to use a cleaner that could actually

leave a filiment on the sensor so it doesn't work 100% therefore

upper you co2, doesn't surprise me.!!

 

[CliveV]

clive v, who are you talking to clive? oh yes you make speaches

to the crowd, if there is one. why? aren't you soppose to be answering me? or is it a case of taking pot shots, as YOUR arrogence is nothing to bragg of.

i have made a comment in your box concerning MAFs what did you

do go to a ford site for the answer? because you certainly

did not reply earlier and you were replying to everything else!

note i reply in the comment box on the maf issue, why? because

unlike some i am responding to you, not the crowd.

You are the one that plays to the crowd!!!!! you talk of arrogance!

You seem to know more about crowd playing than I do so I will bow to your greater knowledge and experience of attention seeking

 

[Val & Frank]

Morning Giovanni,

You have finally taken this debate down as low as as you can go. I for one have tired with your silly little game. I own a 4x4 because I want to. No one will persuade me otherwise, so as far as I am concerned debate is over.

I do draw your attention to the begining of this post please read the AA spokesperson comments "this needs clever thinking"

I am not insulting you by stating in my opinion you are not up to speed enough to take part in that debate. It's just my opinion.

Val & Frank

 

[CliveV]

Oh do come on Clive.

Lutz quite right the only real credable reason anyone could give for buying a 4X4 is it's traction both in tow capacity and grip.

Now then as for the so called "double standards" you seem so hell bent on accusing me of. also the thought that I use frazes to wind people up.

WELL I THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK INWARDLY TO YOUR SELF AT THAT ONE!!

Yes I tow a caravan that is the maximum "legal" weight behind behind a family car but the don't a lot of people. Because of that I have been checked a few times by the law, but because i could demonstrate to them that I knew what the capacity ofthe car was etc and they weighed the outfit and found nothing wrong I continued on my way.

On the nick names for 4X4 don't forget I've owned several chelsea tractor's myself, and put them to good use towing Ifor Williams goods trailers on the highway at 5500Kgs total gross train. But I have to say that only 30% of 4X4's get to see real mud slogging. The rest do get parked outside the school gates and at the supermarket.

Oh of coarse I do enjoy good debate and it's quite funny reading and imagining the keyboards being pounded to death by ranting and raving snipers trying to defend the car stuchk on the suburban driveway.

How's the old blood pressure now?

I'm sure mine and Lutz's are quite normal. After all we can produce a measured thought out debate.

Chin chin.

Steve L.

Steve - try to keep the debate on an adult level - there's a good chap

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Oh dear clive, What have you said? the master of co2!

you would buy a diesel and convert to lpg????

Earlier you showed me you ability to do chemistry equations.

You harp on about CO2 and doing more than your fair share? yet

you would convert to lpg? what ratio would you use?

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Sorry forgot to ask, and this question has no malise intended.

I looked into converting to a 70/30 ratio of diesel to lpg.

I was interested in the 8/10% power increase and the fact i

could say over 50% on 30% of my fuel.

wondered what implications it had on the mot emmission test?

Wondered if it would pass or even be allowed too.

Not saying i know that is why i am asking.

 

[CliveV]

Agreed Frank

In my view Steve and Gio seem determined to reduce the debate to a personal slanging match (Asking how my blood pressure is is just purile as is trying to make out that what I thought was quite helpful info on MAF's is somehow arrogant)

Sadly if they succedd the Moddies will be forced to delete the thread and so the limited knowledge imparted will be expunged from "the record".

Personally I am pleased that the Moddies have allowed what has been overall a sensible discussion.

Please Moddies - by all means delete whatever you feel to be offensive - but is at all possible keep the main debate posts.

 

[Guest]

As a note to an earler response from Giovanni.

Using that name there is a reasonable chance that Giovanni could be Italian of have Italian Family, so his trip to Italy could possibly be as a caring family member.

BUT NO. I was rude to make that as a possible assumption.

GIO is going to pollute all the way to Italy because HE WANTS TO and it where HE WANTS TO GO.

So Gioavanni all your belly aching about C02 and save the planet gets thrown out the window because of your choice.

It's OK for Gio to WANT and DO , but not OK for somebody to WANT and DO 4 x 4 ownership!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Frank, you seem to see this as a attack on 4x4! wow i have made

so many post on this thread, yet only 1 or 2 take issue in this.

I have on the otherhand made numerous posts on clives green issues, and also defended myself against an other after being

attacked, and yes i made a attack at him through his 4x4.

Yet all you see is the 1 or 2 posts on the 4x4?

note you don't comment on the anti diesel statement? nor the

green issue? which had taken over this thread. Am sorry i played

my part in that.

So i will answer you original question concern sales of 4x4.

personally i believe it is only a blip, sales will not fall

too dramaticly, and i believe they will go up again.

 

[CliveV]

Sorry forgot to ask, and this question has no malise intended.

I looked into converting to a 70/30 ratio of diesel to lpg.

I was interested in the 8/10% power increase and the fact i

could say over 50% on 30% of my fuel.

wondered what implications it had on the mot emmission test?

Wondered if it would pass or even be allowed too.

Not saying i know that is why i am asking.

Gio - for a diesel it depends entirely on the set up as dictated by the manufactuers settings.

On small engines the benefits seem hardly worth it from an economic viewpoint as the extra cost of the LPG does not impart significantly better economy but it does clean up the emmissions dramatically by increasing the efficiency. I would assume that the better efficiency would mean less costly catalytic converters will be required during the life of the car. That is certainly what the Aussies report, but our driving in the UK is far more "stop start" so this may be negligible.

On larger engines such as the Ford TDV6 and the new TDV8 I would expect significant improvements.

The Aussies have been using LPG as "piggy back" systems on large diesels for many years. The benefits seem to be better economy, a cleaner engine (injectors stay cleaner) and lower emmissions.

Great stuff this LPG you know!

And up until a few years ago - we just let it burn off at the oil rigs.

Amazing! Stupid!! - but amazing

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Am i correct euro, you live in two places? and you also travel

by car?

Have i once slatted you for this? or even mentioned it as such

in the debate on co2?

you know what i find strange, and it doesn't apply in full to

you, is that if i ask a question, and the person feels he cannot

give a good answer. then he does what you have just done.

change the argument around!!!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

4 X 4,moan moan moan.

My daughters neighbours here have latest Nissan 3000Z another has a Porsche Boxter, + others around the villages have 911,Caterham 7. Brabus M class, Alpina 5 series, two new Ferraris and two other close neighbours have two MG's and a MZ5

and a 500 something Mercedes Sports car. All seem to have families and kids so there are at least 3 or 4 cars at most of the homes.

So driving a 4 X 4 is anti social!

We have our cars bacause they suit us and we like them, so they are 4 x 4, so bl**dy what.

I saw a privately owned Hummer on the M4. Somebodys choice but who am I to question him when the government is pleased to take his or hers cash % of that purchase.

Germany makes some of the fastest performing cars on the road.

So Lutz where do 6.1L Brabus and the likes of Alpina, AMG and Schnitzer sit into the equation, I understand Porshe R & D facility and test track outside Stutgart have a customer Q car dept where customers pay huge sums to get higher performance Porsches than standard.

May be you can explain the deeper emotional afinity for turning 150 mph cars into 200 mph cars compared to even the most humble 4 x 4 purchase.

We have cars that we like and suit our needs, where we drive them and the fact that we use them to tow is our choice. The numptys screaming Chelsea Tractor in mine and others direction need to look carefuly at their own ways and that of others before they preach save the planet.

If the cancer doctor says that smoking habit is killing you, and then lights one up himself and says - But if you pay another pound a packet to the Government it'll be fine you would think he was mad.

UK fuel is about the most highly taxed in Europe with garages on the least profit. Yet the numpties say that 4 x 4 owners should pay more when they already do. Ordering a new car I get no health warning, no incentive not to buy it. All the governments are interested in is that they will get the tax.

in my opinion they should ALL pay higher road tax.

but i said that to start off with and you exploded and made

it a 4x4 thing.

Here we are full circle and you have brought it back to where

it began.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

right i must go now.

notice clive has called for the mods? why this morning i see no

name calling.

Is it a case of you not wanting to answer the diesel/lpg question.?

 

[CliveV]

Look again Gio - I have answered it in full as a comment

As for the name calling so far this morning you have accussed me of playing to the crowd and Steve has assumed my blood pressure is somehow affected by what he says.

Hardly edifying or mature comment I would suggest.

 

[CliveV]

See what I mean about "hiding" in "Comments".

For you ease of use - I repeat myself:-

Gio - for a diesel it depends entirely on the set up as dictated by the manufactuers settings.

On small engines the benefits seem hardly worth it from an economic viewpoint as the extra cost of the LPG does not impart significantly better economy but it does clean up the emmissions dramatically by increasing the efficiency. I would assume that the better efficiency would mean less costly catalytic converters will be required during the life of the car. That is certainly what the Aussies report, but our driving in the UK is far more "stop start" so this may be negligible.

On larger engines such as the Ford TDV6 and the new TDV8 I would expect significant improvements.

The Aussies have been using LPG as "piggy back" systems on large diesels for many years. The benefits seem to be better economy, a cleaner engine (injectors stay cleaner) and lower emmissions.

Great stuff this LPG you know!

And up until a few years ago - we just let it burn off at the oil rigs.

Amazing! Stupid!! - but amazing

You see I do pay attention Gio!

 

[KenWashington]

Once again a 4x4 thread has become a very personalised debate, liberally sprinkled with insulting comments, monopolised by 2 or 3 members.

As we have seen so many times before, this argument can go on forever and neither side will ever "win".

If you want to continue the debate, email me with your permission to pass your email address to any of the other participants.

PLEASE LET IT DROP NOW.

ANY FURTHER POSTS IN THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED.