4x4 Debate

[Guest]

Giovani I actually posted as a point of balance that one car does not make a person the complete enemy of Green issues.

What I posted was -

"Brits are well known for knocking those who have made a few bob and as far as I can see the majority of Chelsea tractor moaners only have green issues within their own eyes."

Yet you seemed to have lumped yourself in with my veiw, I wonder why.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight but I was pointing out FACT. You go off on juvenile "phalic" comments and about wealth, it is just plain fact that a lot of tax is paid on an expensive car. As you now appear to be hinting at your wealth and and godly like abstinence you are falling more into the hurt and jealous trap.

Many of the knockers re green issues soon fall from their high moral ground if you look close enough.

I never suggested that YOU could not afford whatever takes your fancy, so how come ou come acoss so hurt. For one trying to knock re green issues and 4 x 4's why the stoop to tired

" Chelsea Tractor and Phalic" comments.

For one who I assume is trying to make legitimate comment, silly name calling does not actually help your cause.

 

[Steve L]

Well Clive, I don't think I shot myself in the foot. i'd say you followed the three "P" route.

Fancey contemplating towing a double hose box loaded with around 1500Kgs of very valuable livestock.

The poor car must of beeen well over loaded!! Pity the boys in blue weren't about.

Now then as I stated before not everyone can either afford or justify buying and running a chelsea tractor for everyday life.

A lot of people have to put up with what company car they are given.

One Ford Mondaeno getting stuck on grass realy doesn't justify spending thousands on a tow tug.

As I was suggesting, a little bit of thinking ahead and planning what you do pays dividends. I can manage to climb grassy slopes of upto 1 in 10 gradient going straight just by lowering the front tyre pressure to 10psi. By taking an angular slalam route I can climb steeper. This is all with the van on and towing at max gross weight of 2945Kgs pulling 1300Kgs of van.

But by planning where I pitch and looking at how I'm going to exit too, I don't need to go to the limit of my ability to enjoy a holiday.

In days gone by, I used to use a light military land rover fitted with a winch front and back to tush out felled timber. We often had to lower the landy down the slopes with the rear winch and then attatch the front wire to the tree in question. Then by using the AWD plus working the winches we could get timber out where others failed, until the advent of the 6wheel drive tree harvesters.

With that and my past hobby of trial car driving, I have a good knowledge of how to drive on mud.

So as someone mentioned earlier, why can't all of us have a sensible debate and offer friendly advice rather than having to prove how fat the wallet is or how much of a poser some of us are.

A sensble debate and tips and advice are what the majority would like to see. After all a new convert to caravanning might not know what to do if they get stuck, or how to traverse a field and may not even know how to get down a steep slope in their 4X4 because if you hit the brakes to stop on a grassy slope even in a 4X4 you'll ski to the bottom all too quickly.

Steve L

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Giovani I actually posted as a point of balance that one car does not make a person the complete enemy of Green issues.

What I posted was -

"Brits are well known for knocking those who have made a few bob and as far as I can see the majority of Chelsea tractor moaners only have green issues within their own eyes."

Yet you seemed to have lumped yourself in with my veiw, I wonder why.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight but I was pointing out FACT. You go off on juvenile "phalic" comments and about wealth, it is just plain fact that a lot of tax is paid on an expensive car. As you now appear to be hinting at your wealth and and godly like abstinence you are falling more into the hurt and jealous trap.

Many of the knockers re green issues soon fall from their high moral ground if you look close enough.

I never suggested that YOU could not afford whatever takes your fancy, so how come ou come acoss so hurt. For one trying to knock re green issues and 4 x 4's why the stoop to tired

" Chelsea Tractor and Phalic" comments.

For one who I assume is trying to make legitimate comment, silly name calling does not actually help your cause.

Hang on, let me see.

Its ok for you to read a post, and decide it is a anti 4x4 post,

or rather your reply goes along them lines.

Yet you feel i do not have the same right? strange.

"the chelsea tractor brigade"

So you do not understand why so many people come across as so

called anti 4x4s?

Firstly let me repeat what i said in my first post.

"very few on this site, could be considered chelsea tractor owners"

Why? because within reason it is my assumption that the main

reason they have 4x4s is for towing/ or off road use.

this is a 4x4s major strength.

Now back to chelsea tractors.

Note.

Remember i am talking of the larger 4x4s here.

We have major problems with our environment

We have major problems with road structure [mainly urban]

We have to try to stretch our resources as best as can be done.

The onus has been on society to do their bit, because it is only

a bit.

With transport and car ownership the main aims where to firstly

use less fuel, and as time has gone on to bring down mainly

co emmissions.[resourses and emmissions}

In the market place the vast majority of cars can be considered

to meet this criteria, leaving a very small area that does not,

yet can be accepted.[any large gas guzzler 2wd or 4x4]

Over the last decade this balance has moved, but the wrong way

This has happened due to a revamping of what was once a small

rural/upperclass type of vehicle, the large luxury 4x4.

It is now in the hands of the masses,it has become affordable

and popular,but it hasn't replaced that small market of vehicles

that didn't really meet the criteria, it has added to it.

I don't want to go into the effects of traffic or emmissions

problems, as it would take an age to write down. [but i may have

to at a later date].

Thats why i believe in the new approach to car tax, and being

as it effects ALL large vehicles, i cannot see why the 4x4

brigade is up in arms.

NOTE.

I do not believe that cartax will go up to some of the figures

being mentioned, it may double, but we will not be the first eu

country to use a scale type roadtax.

 

[CliveV]

Look Steve, if you are happy to put yourself at a disadvantage when towing that is entirely up to you. Your emotional use of phrases such as "posing" and "chelsea tractor" is designed to offend and wind people up. Please look at what you are saying - you profess to want an adult debate but it is you that is trying to degenerate it into a name calling farce.

I fail to see how towing a Horse trailer with a Citroen would warrent attention from "the boys in blue" when you clearly do not think towing a large caravan with a Renault Laguna is any sort of problem at all?

Double standards or what?

 

[CliveV]

Could you not post in comments Gio - looks like you are hiding

Your comment:-

euro.

i thought my post was quite resonable, alas you seem to take

offence with everything that i said, which it would seem you

believe was aimed at you!

I am not going to go down the green lane, yet i note YOU did try

to earlier with your statement proclaiming the use of solar

power, balancing what extra pollution your vehicles make!

note.

I did say no one needs to justify their choice, you alas see the

need to do so!

Unfortunatly for you i do not fall into the what you call

jealous brigade, nor do i bragg about wealth, whether i have it

or not is my buisness, but you have made yours quite clear.!

You also presume that those who you believe to be knocking 4x4

and large cars, belong to the cannot afford brigrade.

Now that is chelsea tractor arrogance for you.

I do not want or need a chelsea tractor,but what makes you think

i cannot afford one?

the fact is i do not need to show off my wealth, i am

comfortable with out the need for fallic symbols.

clive v. mpg. did you check out the 4x4 against 2wd volvo?

Answer - yes and thet is one reason why I would not choose a Volvo - the Honda, Nissan, Freelander Kia all perform better economy wise - some even matching the 2wd Volvo and have higher ground clearance - something I need.

 

[DavidW1]

I was watchin Newsnight last night and there was a report about Portland Oregon's enlightened joined up transport system where residents are suposedly giving up their cars in drove because the Public Transport is so awesomely lovely.

One family were actually moving house and towing all their worldy goods using bikes adapted to carry stuff and towing trailers loaded with wardrobes and mattresses.

Now why did that remind me of someone?

 

[CliveV]

The funny thing is David that I regularly do business in Bath, Bristol and Plymouth for example. I love to use the Train to get to Bath and Bristol in particular as I can sit back with a coffe - read my notes - prepare for the meeting.

And on the way back dictate the notes, write the report and plan for the next day.

In comparrison a drive via the A36 is a real pain. Even tho' I love driving.

So why do I drive?

I would go bankrupt if I used public transport. The cost is just prohibitive. If two of us have to attend a meeting the combined train fare is such that we can tax a car for a whole year on what it costs for two return train fares!

Portsmouth was planning a super railway to connect the "islands" - but is was scrapped. So we will all have to continue to drive a long distance whereas this train would have taken the shortest route from A to B accross the dividing water.

Only when public transport is taken seriously will people get out of their cars.

The one man whome I believe should be held up as the criminal corporate vandal that he was? - Dr Beeching - his destruction of the railway network is a legacy of dispair.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Could you not post in comments Gio - looks like you are hiding

Your comment:-

euro.

i thought my post was quite resonable, alas you seem to take

offence with everything that i said, which it would seem you

believe was aimed at you!

I am not going to go down the green lane, yet i note YOU did try

to earlier with your statement proclaiming the use of solar

power, balancing what extra pollution your vehicles make!

note.

I did say no one needs to justify their choice, you alas see the

need to do so!

Unfortunatly for you i do not fall into the what you call

jealous brigade, nor do i bragg about wealth, whether i have it

or not is my buisness, but you have made yours quite clear.!

You also presume that those who you believe to be knocking 4x4

and large cars, belong to the cannot afford brigrade.

Now that is chelsea tractor arrogance for you.

I do not want or need a chelsea tractor,but what makes you think

i cannot afford one?

the fact is i do not need to show off my wealth, i am

comfortable with out the need for fallic symbols.

clive v. mpg. did you check out the 4x4 against 2wd volvo?

Answer - yes and thet is one reason why I would not choose a Volvo - the Honda, Nissan, Freelander Kia all perform better economy wise - some even matching the 2wd Volvo and have higher ground clearance - something I need.

clivev, please stop it,you know what you are doing.

On the one hand you try to claim a 4x4 to be as good on fuel

as a 2wd, then when someone actually gives you a proper

example CC for CC and same bhp, from THE SAME ENGINE, you come

up with something else, that does not,or rather you do not

show a comparison.

in other words show the kia engine in 4x4 against 2wd, do the

same for the freelander.

You cannot go round trying to change the laws of physics.

If the same type of engine is fitted into a 2wd or a 4wd car/van

whatever. the 2wd will have the better mpg.

you know that full well, so why are you playing politicians?

remember them, they are the same people you complain about

for using underhand tactics.....ditto.

 

[DavidW1]

Hope you didn't think It was you the programme reminded me of Clive - personally I loathe public transport, all those sweaty bodies crammed into scruffy boxes and as you say paying through the nose for the privilage - yuck, I would rather walk and very often do.

 

[CliveV]

Gio - It really is much easier if you post openly rather than hiding in "comments"

You posted:-

giovanni

16 Aug 2006 11:35 AM

clivev, please stop it,you know what you are doing.

On the one hand you try to claim a 4x4 to be as good on fuel

as a 2wd, then when someone actually gives you a proper

example CC for CC and same bhp, from THE SAME ENGINE, you come

up with something else, that does not,or rather you do not

show a comparison.

in other words show the kia engine in 4x4 against 2wd, do the

same for the freelander.

You cannot go round trying to change the laws of physics.

If the same type of engine is fitted into a 2wd or a 4wd car/van

whatever. the 2wd will have the better mpg.

you know that full well, so why are you playing politicians?

remember them, they are the same people you complain about

for using underhand tactics.....ditto.

Gio - the actual data is as follows:-

2.5T engine (210ps) Urban cycle = 19.6 mpg

2.5T engine (210ps) AWD Urban cycle - 19.1mpg

source Volvo UK.

So we have a diference of 0.5 mpg on a car that is 77kg heavier and sits 2 cm higher.

Surely the question is wether this MINISCULE increase in fuel consumption is worth the INCREDABLE increase in towing ability and ground clearance.

No doubt you would say certainly not.

I would say - "Why the heck buy a Volvo when my V8 Discovery does 20 mpg and is a far more capable vehicle? But that is where my personal opinion and choice come into it.

Others would no doubt say an X Trail, Freelander CRV or whatever is a far better choice.

And the important point here is choice - Why are you so intent on manipulating other peoples choice?

 

[CliveV]

Hi David

Public Transport in most EU cities is excellent - Paris and Brussells are the ones I have most experience of - and I find them inexpensive, clean and they go where I want.

In Paris a "rover" ticket can be purchased which is excellent value.

In Brussells you can pick up a tram that ususlly goes down the central resevation on the road! - and this will take you to their "underground" system (more a series of tunnels in reality) that swiftly and cheaply takes you to where you want to go.

French Trains are superb - and yes I know that as we have roughly the same population as France but on an island 20% of the size of France which does cause some planning and logistical problems. But why are we scrapping excellent transport systems such as the Portsmouth one I mentioned, that would get people out of their cars?

We just seem so shortsighted in this country!

Too many cars? - Tax them of the road!!

Why not come up with and put in place sensible alternatives so we have a choice. For business I love to go by train - I get back to the office having done all my work, and yes I am less tired.

Sadly, if Beeching had not vandalised the old Rail Network, I could have walked 5 min down the road an caught a Train to Bournmouth or Salisbury where I could then have continued my journey by train.

But today I have to drive to Salisbury, Bournemouth or Southampton Station and pay a fortune to park in order to use a train. So I do not bother - I just carry on driving, as 90% of the population seems to do.

 

[CliveV]

Personally I believe that the majority of 4x4 owners are posers and if you want to pose you pay.Jim

What about that Fresian on page 3!!

Pull the udder one!

 

[Guest]

Caravanning tends to be mainly a family orientated activity.

your country has a variety of problems linked to lack of road building, bad planning, failure to react known data re increased road use and failure to use cleaner fuels and engines earlier.

You can go on and on , but I for one am not going to don a Kaftan and plastic sandals and harang mums driving to school. How do these moaners have the time, of course they organise them selves these days with mobile phones and the internet. And most will have an Ipod attached to their ears.

Phone, Ipod and PC. Real green credentials ! Half can't cook theses days and rely on microwaves and packaging friendly meals and moan about naughty drivers as they munch a mango or kiwi fruit imported god knows how far! I get so excited about green credentials.

Taking it that Gio has his heart in the right place, go play with the boys on race cicuits at weekends, or pop down to Poole and have a word in the sell likes of the ater sports entusiast burning untold gallons of fual with engines who have little respect for any emmisions. Don't forget the Aston, Jag, MG, Jensen and other two seat car owners clubs many with old models that pump out god knows what as they were built prior to when Greens first wet a nappy.

Caravanners tend to drive healthy well kept cars as they tow, so go and annoy somebody that might listen do your endless drivel

 

[Guest]

Caravanning tends to be mainly a family orientated activity.

your country has a variety of problems linked to lack of road building, bad planning, failure to react known data re increased road use and failure to use cleaner fuels and engines earlier.

You can go on and on , but I for one am not going to don a Kaftan and plastic sandals and harang mums driving to school. How do these moaners have the time, of course they organise them selves these days with mobile phones and the internet. And most will have an Ipod attached to their ears.

Phone, Ipod and PC. Real green credentials ! Half can't cook theses days and rely on microwaves and packaging friendly meals and moan about naughty drivers as they munch a mango or kiwi fruit imported god knows how far! I get so excited about green credentials.

Taking it that Gio has his heart in the right place, go play with the boys on race cicuits at weekends, or pop down to Poole and have a word in the sell likes of the ater sports entusiast burning untold gallons of fual with engines who have little respect for any emmisions. Don't forget the Aston, Jag, MG, Jensen and other two seat car owners clubs many with old models that pump out god knows what as they were built prior to when Greens first wet a nappy.

Caravanners tend to drive healthy well kept cars as they tow, so go and annoy somebody that might listen do your endless drivel

Sorry

shel likes of water sport

 

[giovanni_5060838]

euro.

You seem to have preconcieved ideas, well of me atleast.

Finally i now know that you can keep them to youself.

Yes my cars are well maintained, and they are diesels.

Infact just fitted a new MAF sensor today, do you know what one

is? do you know or for that matter can you tell when one is not

working totally proper? or do you wait till it fails completely.

AS FOR THE REST OF YOUR STATEMENT,

can only assume its down to a misspent childhood, because for

the life of me i cannot fathom how on earth you have come to

such a conclusion, without a shread of evidence.

i do believe you are the first chelsea tractor driver on here.

welcome.

 

[CliveV]

Now Now guys

We were at last getting to have a real discussion on the subject of greenhouse gases and my point is that the Anti 4x4 lobby is being criminaly stupid in selecting a small section of the transport sector to have a go at.

It takes people attention away from the real issue.

We actually need CO2 - your question about where the other CO2 comes from (you assumed cars!) is just so nonsensical.

CO2 is produced naturally - without it the temperature would be at least 30 to 40 deg Centigrade lower than it is today. In other words you would be dead! (again I am struggling with the potential comments but I WIL control myself)

We need CO2 as a normal part of plant photosynthesis where plants take simple chemicals and make complex hydrocarbons out of them for us to eat.

We are releasing more CO2 than we have ever done before.

This is not a good thing

Nor is the 4x4 or any other vehicle solely responsible for this increase.

Cement production is the largest single producer.

This data taken from the DTI database shows the 2003 amounts of carbon equivalent in millions of tonnes Carbon equivalent.

Industry 43 million tonnes C equiv

Transport 41 million tonnes C equiv

(Trains Aircraft Buses Cars (incl 4x4's of course!))

Residential energy use 41 million tonnes C equiv

Other 27 million tonnes C equiv

(Commerce/agriculture/exports/land change etc)

So my point is that the Anti's by focussing attention on a small and relatively insignificant sector in a subdivision of Transport that in itself is not the largest polluting sector is criminally fudging the real issue that we should be tackling.

And you do not help Gio - your silly comment re "I can see where you are coming from - no cement - no roads therefore a "need" for a 4x4".

Pure bigotry - never mind the fact that roads are in the main NOT built of cement.

People are beginning to make their own minds up. Long may that continue

 

[CliveV]

Now Now guys

We were at last getting to have a real discussion on the subject of greenhouse gases and my point is that the Anti 4x4 lobby is being criminaly stupid in selecting a small section of the transport sector to have a go at.

It takes people attention away from the real issue.

We actually need CO2 - your question about where the other CO2 comes from (you assumed cars!) is just so nonsensical.

CO2 is produced naturally - without it the temperature would be at least 30 to 40 deg Centigrade lower than it is today. In other words you would be dead! (again I am struggling with the potential comments but I WIL control myself)

We need CO2 as a normal part of plant photosynthesis where plants take simple chemicals and make complex hydrocarbons out of them for us to eat.

We are releasing more CO2 than we have ever done before.

This is not a good thing

Nor is the 4x4 or any other vehicle solely responsible for this increase.

Cement production is the largest single producer.

This data taken from the DTI database shows the 2003 amounts of carbon equivalent in millions of tonnes Carbon equivalent.

Industry 43 million tonnes C equiv

Transport 41 million tonnes C equiv

(Trains Aircraft Buses Cars (incl 4x4's of course!))

Residential energy use 41 million tonnes C equiv

Other 27 million tonnes C equiv

(Commerce/agriculture/exports/land change etc)

So my point is that the Anti's by focussing attention on a small and relatively insignificant sector in a subdivision of Transport that in itself is not the largest polluting sector is criminally fudging the real issue that we should be tackling.

And you do not help Gio - your silly comment re "I can see where you are coming from - no cement - no roads therefore a "need" for a 4x4".

Pure bigotry - never mind the fact that roads are in the main NOT built of cement.

People are beginning to make their own minds up. Long may that continue

 

[CliveV]

Caravanning tends to be mainly a family orientated activity.

your country has a variety of problems linked to lack of road building, bad planning, failure to react known data re increased road use and failure to use cleaner fuels and engines earlier.

You can go on and on , but I for one am not going to don a Kaftan and plastic sandals and harang mums driving to school. How do these moaners have the time, of course they organise them selves these days with mobile phones and the internet. And most will have an Ipod attached to their ears.

Phone, Ipod and PC. Real green credentials ! Half can't cook theses days and rely on microwaves and packaging friendly meals and moan about naughty drivers as they munch a mango or kiwi fruit imported god knows how far! I get so excited about green credentials.

Taking it that Gio has his heart in the right place, go play with the boys on race cicuits at weekends, or pop down to Poole and have a word in the sell likes of the ater sports entusiast burning untold gallons of fual with engines who have little respect for any emmisions. Don't forget the Aston, Jag, MG, Jensen and other two seat car owners clubs many with old models that pump out god knows what as they were built prior to when Greens first wet a nappy.

Caravanners tend to drive healthy well kept cars as they tow, so go and annoy somebody that might listen do your endless drivel

I have to say euro that seeing tv footage of Greenpeace Inflatable roaring about "saving the planet" for us sinners really does make me laugh.

I think you and I probably know that the fuel efficiency of such vehicles is measured in gallons per mile.

Seems like one rule for them and another for the "saviours of the planet".

Have you noticed that Greenpeace never disclose how much diesel there fleet of ships use per year.

Funny that.

 

[CliveV]

Sorry - think something odd is hapening - this was not meant to be posted under "Comments"

I have to say euro that seeing tv footage of Greenpeace Inflatable roaring about "saving the planet" for us sinners really does make me laugh.

I think you and I probably know that the fuel efficiency of such vehicles is measured in gallons per mile.

Seems like one rule for them and another for the "saviours of the planet".

Have you noticed that Greenpeace never disclose how much diesel there fleet of ships use per year.

Funny that.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Now Now guys

We were at last getting to have a real discussion on the subject of greenhouse gases and my point is that the Anti 4x4 lobby is being criminaly stupid in selecting a small section of the transport sector to have a go at.

It takes people attention away from the real issue.

We actually need CO2 - your question about where the other CO2 comes from (you assumed cars!) is just so nonsensical.

CO2 is produced naturally - without it the temperature would be at least 30 to 40 deg Centigrade lower than it is today. In other words you would be dead! (again I am struggling with the potential comments but I WIL control myself)

We need CO2 as a normal part of plant photosynthesis where plants take simple chemicals and make complex hydrocarbons out of them for us to eat.

We are releasing more CO2 than we have ever done before.

This is not a good thing

Nor is the 4x4 or any other vehicle solely responsible for this increase.

Cement production is the largest single producer.

This data taken from the DTI database shows the 2003 amounts of carbon equivalent in millions of tonnes Carbon equivalent.

Industry 43 million tonnes C equiv

Transport 41 million tonnes C equiv

(Trains Aircraft Buses Cars (incl 4x4's of course!))

Residential energy use 41 million tonnes C equiv

Other 27 million tonnes C equiv

(Commerce/agriculture/exports/land change etc)

So my point is that the Anti's by focussing attention on a small and relatively insignificant sector in a subdivision of Transport that in itself is not the largest polluting sector is criminally fudging the real issue that we should be tackling.

And you do not help Gio - your silly comment re "I can see where you are coming from - no cement - no roads therefore a "need" for a 4x4".

Pure bigotry - never mind the fact that roads are in the main NOT built of cement.

People are beginning to make their own minds up. Long may that continue

sorry clive, you are missing the piont, cement is infact only

a large CO2 producer because it uses furnaces to produce the

product. And what do they use to fire them up? cement?

Actions speak louder than words and no one here can do much

about industries CO2 pollution without first loking at themselfs.

I made the piont about pennies and pounds, its a real valid one

we have to do our bit first before we can start to complain and

actually make a real difference about the larger polluters.

At the end of the day, these companies have people running them

with families, and if and when they also do their little bit

at home, then they may realise that they should do more at work

to make a difference.

One question, wonder what type of vehicles these people drive?

 

[CliveV]

Sorry Gio - but you fail to make any sensible point in my book!

You post:- and I answer each point in Capitals simply to show my responce - please do not interpretit as shouting

sorry clive, you are missing the piont, cement is infact only

a large CO2 producer because it uses furnaces to produce the

product. And what do they use to fire them up? cement?

YOUR POINT BEING WHAT EXACTLY - DO WE HAVE GRADES OF POLUTION THEN WITH POLUTION FROM A 4x4 MORE HENIOUS FROM THAT OF INDUSTRY?

Actions speak louder than words and no one here can do much

about industries CO2 pollution without first loking at themselfs.

WHY? - YOU DO NOT SEEM TO ME TO BE SELF DEFEATIST? THIS IS JUST A SOP SO THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE TO HAVE A GO AT 4x4's AND IGNORE THE REAL ISSUES

I made the piont about pennies and pounds, its a real valid one

we have to do our bit first before we can start to complain and

actually make a real difference about the larger polluters.

SO I HAVE TO STOP USING MY CAR AND WHEN I DO USE IT PAY A HUGE AMOUNT OF TAX BECAUSE THAT POLUTES A LITTLE BIT, BUT THE HUGE POLUTORS CAN CARRY ON BECAUSE THEY ARE BIG AND NOT SO EASILY TAXED! WOW! - I THINK YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE SELLING THAT CONCEPT ON THE HUSTINGS

At the end of the day, these companies have people running them

with families, and if and when they also do their little bit

at home, then they may realise that they should do more at work

to make a difference.

REALLY! - PERHAPS WE COULD GET WALT DISNEY TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT IT!

One question, wonder what type of vehicles these people drive?

AND BACK YOU COME AGAIN IN A NON TOO SUBTLE WAY TO TRY TO GET BACK TO VEHICLES AS YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY OUT OF YOUR DEPTH WHEN THE DISCUSSION DIPS INTO REAL ISSUES RATHER THAN PROPERGANDA

Like I say - forgive the capitals folks - I am not "shoutng" - but without italics, underlining or bold - this was the only way to cover each individual point.

 

[CliveV]

Sorry Gio

meant to add this but had to leave the office

You say that:-

"sorry clive, you are missing the piont, cement is infact only

a large CO2 producer because it uses furnaces to produce the

product. And what do they use to fire them up? cement?"

Gio - You really could NOT BE MORE WRONG - (still not shouting but I do need to emphasise this point!)

As part of the cement producing process Limestone (CaCO3) is converted to Lime (CaO) and CO2

CaCO3 > CaO + CO2

So hopefully you can see why cement production is SUCH a major problem when it comes to CO2 emmissions - not only does it emit CO2 from the energy it requires to heat the process, but the very process itself produces more gaseous CO2 that would be otherwise locked up in Limestone!.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

clive i do enjoy your post, wish i had the time to answer you better.

For now i will leave you with this.

I at least made some suggestion, as to how we should try to tackle things.

Exactly what suggestion did you make to try to improve the

situation.

Answer.. none.

All you did was pass the buck nothing more, thats very helpfull.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

I assumed that you were the type who was quick to critise.

as i know your thread and this one will be deleted, i hope

you have time to read it first.

your last post shows you to be a true pratt.

as for me chucking myself in front of a car! i can only

assume that you are a little person with spiecal needs.

go away before i shout at you and you wet yourself. pratt.

 

[CliveV]

Oh dear - going for the sympathy vote are we now Gio,

If you had suggested anything concrete (no pun intended!) I would listen with interest - but please please spare me the:-

"At the end of the day, these companies have people running them

with families, and if and when they also do their little bit

at home, then they may realise that they should do more at work

to make a difference."

- nonsense - all that does is allow the biggest polluters off the hook whilst attacking those that hardly have any affect at all in comparison.

The CO2 mistake you made just indicates to one and all that like most of the "Anti this Anti that" brigade, your grasp of the actual facts is sketchy at best and downright dangerously wrong at worst!

You haven't tried or suggested anything to actually make things better. You have tried to force your inaccurate views across which is worse than doing nothing at all because if you and others like you are successful - resources and effort will be wasted on the alter of prejudice.