Hmm, Hmm. It's elOquently, Trip Hazard not elEequently. I'm afraid you've got a little way to go yet before you are eloquent.
Come on Lutz, you're on a caravan forum here. It's one of the few places that have the view that bigger is better.
True, 4x4 owners rarely use the extra traction, but it's not the only reason for owning one.
I have mine because:-
1. It's heavy, so capable of towing my caravan with ease and safety.
2. Because I get a good view of the road ahead. I'm starting to get on in age and the reactions are not what they used to be, being able to see cars breaking early, helps a lot.
3. Its small for its weight, I could get an equivalent car of similar tonnage but it would be much larger than my 4x4 and I have no parking space for it.
4. It's easier to get in and out of than a regular car. The nearest and dearest has back problems and I'm getting that way too, it helps with this.
5. I like it! I feel safe in it, comfortable and more relaxed. I drive slower in it than I do a normal saloon and tend not to go for those little gaps in the traffic that set the heart racing.
6. It means that if I get stuck in a traffic jam, I can put it into four wheel drive and detour round the lot of it, through farmer's fields and peoples back gardens.
So apart from wanting one, it's also a necessity.
P.S.
I made up No6, but one day I'm gunna!
I always find it amazing at how hyprocritical people can be. There is a group of people who choose to pull an a large white brick behind them, which cuts their fuel consumption nearly in half, and they have the cheek to lecture others on what they choose to drive.
Carvaneers don't even have to get the thing taxed or MOT'd and are the last people who should lecture any other road users. I understand that some caravans weigh in excess of a tonne and have unneccessary items like fixed beds, fridges and ovens in them. This is a total waste of resources and if they must have caravan it should be lightweight and basic.
Carvaneers don't even have to get the thing taxed or MOT'd and are the last people who should lecture any other road users. I understand that some caravans weigh in excess of a tonne and have unneccessary items like fixed beds, fridges and ovens in them. This is a total waste of resources and if they must have caravan it should be lightweight and basic.
Well said that man!
As for why i originally chose a 4x4 - I am sure I have mentioned it before but I had a superb estate car - more practical when it came to carrying capacity than any of the 4x4's I have owned as being a Citroen it had air suspension that could be raised or lowered. BUT - and it is a big BUT! - it was absolutely useless at towing a horse box.
Front wheel drive - OK in the dryest of conditions - any wet and even the most careful and lightest of feet failed to stop wheel spin.
A Discovery came to our rescue - pulled both car and loaded horse box of the muddy wet field without a problem.
4x4's are more capable vehicles - that makes them safer in my book in any given situation.
If I just wanted comfort - I would probably buy a Jag, Audi, BMW or whatever. But seeing as I tow - a Land Rover is my choice and that selection is not just based upon comfort.
As for why i originally chose a 4x4 - I am sure I have mentioned it before but I had a superb estate car - more practical when it came to carrying capacity than any of the 4x4's I have owned as being a Citroen it had air suspension that could be raised or lowered. BUT - and it is a big BUT! - it was absolutely useless at towing a horse box.
Front wheel drive - OK in the dryest of conditions - any wet and even the most careful and lightest of feet failed to stop wheel spin.
A Discovery came to our rescue - pulled both car and loaded horse box of the muddy wet field without a problem.
4x4's are more capable vehicles - that makes them safer in my book in any given situation.
If I just wanted comfort - I would probably buy a Jag, Audi, BMW or whatever. But seeing as I tow - a Land Rover is my choice and that selection is not just based upon comfort.
What people need to realise is the source of the anti 4x4 debate. It originates in the US, where and SUV is a specific vehicle type, it alows certain vehicles to be classed as "light trucks", in the US companies have to stick to restrictions on gas mileage, safety and emissions for passegner cars, however these rules do not apply to "Light Trucks". Hence the high emissions bad fuel economy and poor safety record do apply to SUVs, however unless your one of the lunatic fringe who has imported a Dodge Ram or Ford F150 to this country, these accusations do not apply in Europe.
These vehicles are huge, A Dodge Ram will give in the region of 8mpg and dwarf transit, that is a gas guzzler. These vehicles are far removed from your average 4x4 you will see in this country.
As and aside most of the points the anti brigade like to score against 4x4 can be leveled at MPVs, Vans (how many transits out there that are not being used to their "full potential"), camper vans, cars built before 1980, any 200+bhp car etc.
These vehicles are huge, A Dodge Ram will give in the region of 8mpg and dwarf transit, that is a gas guzzler. These vehicles are far removed from your average 4x4 you will see in this country.
As and aside most of the points the anti brigade like to score against 4x4 can be leveled at MPVs, Vans (how many transits out there that are not being used to their "full potential"), camper vans, cars built before 1980, any 200+bhp car etc.
Lutz has made a good point. Not too dis-simlar to what I was suggesting.
May be Clive V's citreon needed a decent set of tyres. My original tow car for my twenty foot twin axle van(a Renault 25) had a set of budget tyres on it when I bought it for the princely sum of
May be Clive V's citreon needed a decent set of tyres. My original tow car for my twenty foot twin axle van(a Renault 25) had a set of budget tyres on it when I bought it for the princely sum of
Steve me old mate - you just shot yourself in the foot on this!
The cars tyres where fine - front wheel drive towing a horse box with two 16 hand horses in it on wet grass was not! The Discovey that came to my aid all those years ago never even "broke into a sweat" and pulled out the Citroen and the loaded Horse Box all in one go!
As for "Desert Mats", "winches" etc - i have never needed them.
My point has always been and was demonstrated in spades at the Easter meet when a Mondeo failed to gain traction on wet grass on the most inoccuous slope - in fact it was not even a slope.
Steve (Sparkes) in his TD5 Discovery sorted it out in no time.
I have seen more damage to fields from wheel slip with Front Wheel Drive cars than with Rear wheel drive, and an all wheel drive car never.
As for "Engaging one's brain and thinking about how to get yourself out of sticky situations" - surely being suitably prepared so that you never get into said "sticky situation" would be the best preparation of all!
Must be my Boy Scout days! Be prepared!
The cars tyres where fine - front wheel drive towing a horse box with two 16 hand horses in it on wet grass was not! The Discovey that came to my aid all those years ago never even "broke into a sweat" and pulled out the Citroen and the loaded Horse Box all in one go!
As for "Desert Mats", "winches" etc - i have never needed them.
My point has always been and was demonstrated in spades at the Easter meet when a Mondeo failed to gain traction on wet grass on the most inoccuous slope - in fact it was not even a slope.
Steve (Sparkes) in his TD5 Discovery sorted it out in no time.
I have seen more damage to fields from wheel slip with Front Wheel Drive cars than with Rear wheel drive, and an all wheel drive car never.
As for "Engaging one's brain and thinking about how to get yourself out of sticky situations" - surely being suitably prepared so that you never get into said "sticky situation" would be the best preparation of all!
Must be my Boy Scout days! Be prepared!
We have two BMW X5's. a 3 litre D for my wife and my 4.8s. It's our choice get it!
We've towed with other very capable cars but the higher 4 X 4 stream lines the air flow better over the van and we get a good view over hedge rows the cars ahead etc. And we just fell in love with the car.
You would need to be pretty brave to use the pefomance to the full but it suits our needs and life style. We very rarely fly now compared to thousands of flights in the past, our home when finished will have ground source heat pump and cooling systems and with all the French sun we also have Solar panel for power and water heating for water and the pool, with our own water supply as well pumped partialy by wind.
Our one excess is our cars these days and I see no reason to defend our choice quite frankly.
Brits are to fond of sticking their noses into others choices.
We've towed with other very capable cars but the higher 4 X 4 stream lines the air flow better over the van and we get a good view over hedge rows the cars ahead etc. And we just fell in love with the car.
You would need to be pretty brave to use the pefomance to the full but it suits our needs and life style. We very rarely fly now compared to thousands of flights in the past, our home when finished will have ground source heat pump and cooling systems and with all the French sun we also have Solar panel for power and water heating for water and the pool, with our own water supply as well pumped partialy by wind.
Our one excess is our cars these days and I see no reason to defend our choice quite frankly.
Brits are to fond of sticking their noses into others choices.
Personally I believe that the majority of 4x4 owners are posers and if you want to pose you pay.Jim
I once belonged to an exclusive golf club where people would pull up in Porsches and Bentleys etc and at present I beleive the green fees are over
Clive, I think you do overemphasise the benefit of better traction of a 4x4. Just because one of us got stuck with their Mondeo on the grass at the Easter Meet is hardly sufficient to warrant the purchase of a 4x4 for all the mileage done during the rest of the year.
It's probably not just luck Lutz, a combination of hard work/risk and luck normally gets you to the position Euro is in.
It's our choice what we buy, as for saving the planet, our childrens children will have that responsibility, and if you look back 50 years I have every confidence that they will have a solution.
Val & frank
Your opinion Lutz - and whilst it is interesting - it is hardly relevent to my situation.
Whilst you and i have large 4x4 - me because i tow a lot more than just my caravan - most modern 4x4's are as fuel efficient as any other medium sized car but tow a caravan with a far greater margin of both safety and ability.
As for why you have a large 4x4 - frankly I am not interested - your choice - nothing to do with me.
Steve in leo keeps going on about having to "plan" better and construct roads out of some "cardboard and sticky backed plastic" to get him out of trouble and to park his caravan on a south facing slope when the moon is full and whilst wearing your favourite socks!
Sorry guys but that seems to much like hard work compensating for inadequate equipment. Far better to go better equiped in the first place
If you have a good tow car like a TD4 Freelander, or Sorento or XTrail etc etc - you get about the same economy as you would from a large saloon you would need to tow your caravan with!
And you would be "better prepared" for those difficult conditions!
And for a front wheel drive Mondeo - it would seem that "difficult conditions" could constitute just about any grass pitch in the UK considering how good the pitch was at Easter!
We go away a lot at weekends to CL's in the main - most it not all that we have been to would cause a Mondeo problems based upon the excellent pitch we had at Easter.
I actually found it hard to believe that any car had a problem on that pitch! Just goes to show.
Whilst you and i have large 4x4 - me because i tow a lot more than just my caravan - most modern 4x4's are as fuel efficient as any other medium sized car but tow a caravan with a far greater margin of both safety and ability.
As for why you have a large 4x4 - frankly I am not interested - your choice - nothing to do with me.
Steve in leo keeps going on about having to "plan" better and construct roads out of some "cardboard and sticky backed plastic" to get him out of trouble and to park his caravan on a south facing slope when the moon is full and whilst wearing your favourite socks!
Sorry guys but that seems to much like hard work compensating for inadequate equipment. Far better to go better equiped in the first place
If you have a good tow car like a TD4 Freelander, or Sorento or XTrail etc etc - you get about the same economy as you would from a large saloon you would need to tow your caravan with!
And you would be "better prepared" for those difficult conditions!
And for a front wheel drive Mondeo - it would seem that "difficult conditions" could constitute just about any grass pitch in the UK considering how good the pitch was at Easter!
We go away a lot at weekends to CL's in the main - most it not all that we have been to would cause a Mondeo problems based upon the excellent pitch we had at Easter.
I actually found it hard to believe that any car had a problem on that pitch! Just goes to show.
Thank you so much for that lesson in spelling clutz im afraid i was too busy taking my mother advice about manners and how to treat others rather than spelling lessons from my so obvious betters.
I always find it that interesting that my intellectual betters have to resort to personal insults rather than debate
martin
I always find it that interesting that my intellectual betters have to resort to personal insults rather than debate
martin
Lutz.
Luck has a part in most things in life. Taking chances and working hard are also a large part of life. Sitting back and realising that you can enjoy without expensive golf and yacht clubs or very expensive hotels etc has nothing to do with luck.
When we had three houses one wrecked by squatters in the 70's with huge interest payments to pay and a local authority threatening legal action as the squatters had caused a health hazzard that the LA and police did not want to know about and the other where the tennants claimed squatters rights and refused to pay the rent for 11 months. Luck was thin on the ground with business to be run and our kids to feed.
Wife and I working up to 20 hour 7 day weeks and spending weeks apart and finding
Luck has a part in most things in life. Taking chances and working hard are also a large part of life. Sitting back and realising that you can enjoy without expensive golf and yacht clubs or very expensive hotels etc has nothing to do with luck.
When we had three houses one wrecked by squatters in the 70's with huge interest payments to pay and a local authority threatening legal action as the squatters had caused a health hazzard that the LA and police did not want to know about and the other where the tennants claimed squatters rights and refused to pay the rent for 11 months. Luck was thin on the ground with business to be run and our kids to feed.
Wife and I working up to 20 hour 7 day weeks and spending weeks apart and finding
Would anyone like a signed photo of me in my posing pouch seductively laying on the bonnet of my Discovery?
I have some available
Oh dear, I'm being got at from two sides now. From Euro because of my reference to luck and from Clive for apparently supporting a recommendation to tow with a car "unfit for the conditions".
Whether unlucky or not, a lot of people have to make do with the car they've got and that, in most cases, is a humble family saloon. All I am saying is that they can still enjoy caravanning even though the car may be less than ideal for the purpose. If you are on a tight budget, you have to be able make certain compromises and that means using equipment that may not be optimal for a fraction of the time that it's in use. After all, I don't buy a 7-seater just because the children and grandparents want to come along together on holiday once a year.
Whether unlucky or not, a lot of people have to make do with the car they've got and that, in most cases, is a humble family saloon. All I am saying is that they can still enjoy caravanning even though the car may be less than ideal for the purpose. If you are on a tight budget, you have to be able make certain compromises and that means using equipment that may not be optimal for a fraction of the time that it's in use. After all, I don't buy a 7-seater just because the children and grandparents want to come along together on holiday once a year.
We made do in years gone by, we have two caravans and tow cars so family can join us on the road. We could tow a smaller van, but we enjoy the space and can take our grand kids. I guess we are making up for time we missed with our own kids, so spend money for the times we are able to afford the family a few luxuries that we never had.
OK, we've got a difference in philosophy here, Euro. Mine is, if the equipment is optimal for 95% of the time, forget the remaining 5%. Often, the cost over covering the rest is as high as the cost to meet the first 95% of one's requirements and to me, that's not a healthy relationship.
I take you point doubly Lutz!
We could leave the money in the bank but prefer to spread it around to benefit our family and friends.
The money will do us no good when we shed our mortal coils, so we enjoy it our way. We've travelled with family and friends from New Zealand and Australia around Europe in the past five years and had some wonderful times.
We could leave the money in the bank but prefer to spread it around to benefit our family and friends.
The money will do us no good when we shed our mortal coils, so we enjoy it our way. We've travelled with family and friends from New Zealand and Australia around Europe in the past five years and had some wonderful times.
I use the money I've saved in covering 95% instead of 100% to cover 95% of something else. It's just a difference of scale
ps
I have winter wheels and tyres for the X5's and in the mountains and in Switzerland and Italy you need 4 x 4 or you can not use some roads in winter. If I did not have 4 x 4 I would not be able to use our cars on some trips. So by having 4 X 4 we are actually very in tune with 95% + optimal use of our cars Lutz
I have winter wheels and tyres for the X5's and in the mountains and in Switzerland and Italy you need 4 x 4 or you can not use some roads in winter. If I did not have 4 x 4 I would not be able to use our cars on some trips. So by having 4 X 4 we are actually very in tune with 95% + optimal use of our cars Lutz
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