4x4 Debate

Jun 23, 2005
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Well done Carl at Large in September 06's magazine. At last unbiased honest information about 4x4's as a choice of tow car. I hope the Governtment takes notice of all the information when they set the new road tax's or tolls. For too long here and in the media we caravaners who choose a 4x4 as a tow car have been harranged by misinformed members of the forum, general public as well as jounalists. Well done carl and before the knives come out READ THE ARTICLE and loose the misinformatiion

Martin
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Ok, lets make this a clean fight, no shoulder barging, no biting and definately no quoting from obscure publications with an agenda!

Or, how about we crash the forum for the blessed peace?
 
Jun 23, 2005
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Lol

Its not ment to be a fight with each other we must all sick together. we are facing a serious issue with the government determind to screw as much tax out of us as possible.

We all love our vans cars 4x4 or what ever we drive or tow with its getting to the stage when we will be priced off the road.

Our voices need heard as one not as many bickering together.

Martin
 
Aug 6, 2006
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whenever the British Government needs money - Plan A. Increase motoring costs. You just have to look at how much Government receives annually from motorist compared to how much is spent on public roads.

I agree that time is VERY shortly coming where the motorist will no longer be used as an open cheque book to top up Government purses - because thay can't balance their books.

It is well and trully beyond a joke and I for one will consider breaking any new motoring rules that are used to raise extra money for this corrupt Government
 
Jun 23, 2006
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Ah well those Nasty guzzlers.

4 x 4 diesel giving and average of 28 mpg 9000 miles pa and a Diesel Rnault averaging 42mpg and 14000 mpg.

The neighbours with a fast hatch that does 30000 miles pa at 26 - 27 mpg and the company Porsche that does X mpg and 35000

miles pa whose driver mocks my friends gas guzzler 4 x 4 and the caravan.

So even without the jet set holidays who is Mr and Mrs Green?

No doubt Blair's canceled holiday did not include a jet flight ;)

He has his green credentials to think about as well,along with all his buddies !
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Lol

Its not ment to be a fight with each other we must all sick together. we are facing a serious issue with the government determind to screw as much tax out of us as possible.

We all love our vans cars 4x4 or what ever we drive or tow with its getting to the stage when we will be priced off the road.

Our voices need heard as one not as many bickering together.

Martin
That's the trouble Martin, even on this hallowed forum, where a heavy tow car makes sense, there are those that would like the 4x4 banned. There is no winner in this debate with each side sticking to their own argument without bothering to see the other side of the coin. The only winner where the 4x4 argument is concerned is the Government. Because of so called pressure from the "Greens" they now have a licence to charge pretty much what they want to and when the cries are heard of "robbery" they just say "It's all to save the environment".

What tickles me is the fact that my large 4x4 is grouped with a two litre Mondeo for the purpose of tax. As far as I am concerned the "Box" has been opened and we now have to pay the dividend, 4x4 owners and ordinary cars alike.

When everyone realises what mugs we have been, count me in on a demo or two, until then I'm weary of an argument that we have already won. It's just that nobody wants to accept that fact.

Pete, if you think the money will be ploughed back into small cars, think again. Does all your road tax go on roads?
 
Jun 23, 2005
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That's the trouble Martin, even on this hallowed forum, where a heavy tow car makes sense, there are those that would like the 4x4 banned. There is no winner in this debate with each side sticking to their own argument without bothering to see the other side of the coin. The only winner where the 4x4 argument is concerned is the Government. Because of so called pressure from the "Greens" they now have a licence to charge pretty much what they want to and when the cries are heard of "robbery" they just say "It's all to save the environment".

What tickles me is the fact that my large 4x4 is grouped with a two litre Mondeo for the purpose of tax. As far as I am concerned the "Box" has been opened and we now have to pay the dividend, 4x4 owners and ordinary cars alike.

When everyone realises what mugs we have been, count me in on a demo or two, until then I'm weary of an argument that we have already won. It's just that nobody wants to accept that fact.

Pete, if you think the money will be ploughed back into small cars, think again. Does all your road tax go on roads?
Lol

As usual you make perfect sence
 
Aug 6, 2006
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Totally agree. I've just ordered a CR-V (diesel) today (was going to order a X-trail, but found out they are in partnership with Renault).

Anyway the CR-V would appear to average close to 40mpg. How many 1.8 ltr saloon cars can do this. Yet even as a soft offroader/SUV, many people automatically think vehicles like CR-V's, Santa-fe's, X-Trials guzzle fuel. These people obviously have no idea!

I spoke to a collegue at work the other day and he was bragging his petrol Vectra did 32mpg :)
 
Jun 11, 2005
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Hi,

this is an on-going chestnut. I have just decided to buya Mondeo Td at 47mpg in place of my wifes Saab 9000CSE . The Saab was written off and though we both would have loved a Saab 9-5 estate, asa second car with around 30mpg it did not make any financail sens eas the second car tends to do more miles per year. We reckon that the fuel costs saved will come to around
 
Dec 30, 2009
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Dont know Frank but i bet hes on drugs after todays outburst.

What wories me is that we pay for these idiots to come up with these statements and sit in westminster for days on end debating how we get screwed more. Earning there 35k plus another 30k on to for so called expenses!

Kevin H
 
Mar 14, 2005
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whenever the British Government needs money - Plan A. Increase motoring costs. You just have to look at how much Government receives annually from motorist compared to how much is spent on public roads.

I agree that time is VERY shortly coming where the motorist will no longer be used as an open cheque book to top up Government purses - because thay can't balance their books.

It is well and trully beyond a joke and I for one will consider breaking any new motoring rules that are used to raise extra money for this corrupt Government
Same name - same views - and well said
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I think you will find this is a revenue neutral tax where the money taken from "gas guzzlers" will be used to reduce the tax on the smaller cars.
Hang on! - I have just seen a couple of pigs fly by my window
 
Aug 28, 2005
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Trip Hazard,

What are you saying; this article has got to be one of the worst I've read all year. The only car he could find was the Renault Grand Espace about the biggest car on the road and even then he argued over exactly 1 inch or 25mm.

I love the one about why "SUV"'s are less likely to be involved in a crash - the "truth" lies within the Demographic and geography of who drives them. The reason people crash in the states is EXACTLY THE SAME as here ..Youth and in experience.

People should be intelligent to make their own opinions without the need for poorly written copy which is short on facts and even shorter on substance. If the new ed does anything he want move Carl his dream move to the "New Statesman". I actually subscribe to this rubbish.

Monkeys Husband
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Godamnit why did I read this!

I said 'that's it!' the last time the bigots crawled out from under their rocks but here I am again...

Apart from the rights of freedom to buy whichever vehicle you want, there are also other factors involved.

I read earlier, a post from someone saying that their rig was almost a 100% match and they were concerned (as they might well be). However stick 2 tonnes of Discovery or Range Rover on the front and suddenly the tail is no longer in danger of 'wagging the dog'.

Let's take it a step further shall we?

The statistics used so vehemently by the Anti's apart from being fatally flawed, stem from research gleaned almost 10 years ago in the US. The most famous and factually inaccurate information states that "pedestrians are 27 times more likely to be killed in a collision with a 4x4/SUV" is based on a survey into side impact with other vehicles rather than pedestrians and has been used over and over in the wrong context by the Anti's. Especially as it was conducted on mostly commercial vehicles rather than 4x4's.

EnCAP results prove a totally different story with 4x4's scoring highly on pedestrian safety.

Now then, how about the huge number of urban 4x4's?

In London, we are talking 3.5%. Wow, that's immense!! Actually only 1 in 14 cars bought new are a 4x4/SUV raher than 1 in 5 as spouted by the 'holier than thou'. Apparently the highest sales appear to be in, dare I say it, rural areas!

Urban sales tend to be at the bottom of the sales lists. Shock Horror!!

And to the crux of the post...

These massive 4x4's that should be taxed from the roads.

The Freelander 4459mm long

A Vx Vectra 4596mm long!

A Discovery 4700mm long

Mundaneo 4731mm long or a Citroen C5 Estate 4839mm

Let's not leave it there shall we?

Width is another point.

Mundaneo 1958mm

Discovery 1890mm

Lexus GS3000 1820mm

Freelander 1810mm

Emissions from the Lexus and the Subaru Imprezza are higher than both Freelander Td4 and Discovery Td5. Even the '2.4 children'avreage family hack, the Focus Zetec and Mundaneo 3l spout more CO2 into the air than the Freeby!

Of course this could just be yet another wind-up, in which case perhaps the perpetrators should go get a job, as it has been noted that most demonstrators (had you spotted the 'demon' in demonstrator) tend to be seen during the hours of the working day rather than outside of it?

Taking it a step beyond...

Ever heard of Rover Rescue or 4x4 Response?

Well they are the owners/enthusiats of the various 4x4 marques who give up their spare time to train and prepare for emergencies where the use of all wheel drive vehicles might be needed (otherwise known as VOG's or Voluntary Orgaanisation Groups). All the councils within the UK are duty bound to have voluntary groups in place to help out in times of civil emergency.

For instance, it is snowing heavily and the ambulance control has no one to relieve the staff already in place: The local VOG will use it's members to get people to where they need to be.

A walker on a national park slips and breaks an ankle in woodland: How close do you think a conventional ambulance will get?

Due to Health & Safety guidelines not anywhere neaar as close as you'd think! Basically the tarmac is their limit.

So there you are, truth rather than fabrication for a change.

It won't matter a jot to the anti's though as you can't tell them anything.
 
May 21, 2008
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I'll chip in my ten peneth.

Before I've even started some of you will have me pegged as anti 4x4 and a Renaullt buff. (I thought I'd get the snipe's and condemnation settled myself first)

I agree with Clive (cumbernauld), the goverment fly's straight to the motorist when it needs a quick cash fix.

On the other hand though I do think that road tax and insurance should be charged through the fuel taxation system.

You see, how many times do you hear of people having accidents only to find out that the other party is not insured, and this is not the preserve of the not so well off either!

At least by having a "pay as you drive" system, those who want to was their cash by driving what people have quite rightly nick named "chelsea tractors" around the conjestion charging capital, then they would pay a proportionate amount of taxation. On the other hand the person driving the smart car would pay considerably less and hence be rewarded for their contribution to reduction of pollution.

As a by-product of this, all the un-taxed and insured transits would have to become road legal. Especially if the goverment abolished transportyard fuel storage tanks and made everyone purchase all fuel from the garage. The road haulage industry would not be affected as they currently enjoy bulk fuel discount via key fuels and other such fuel systems.

Finally onto trip hazards point.

Having owned both 4x4, cars and commercial vehicles, I hold the view that each one has a place in the wheel of motoring. As is often the case with most things in life, we have to make a compromise between what we would like and what makes either practical or finacial sense. Here's just my example.

I own a large twin axle caravan, but commute every day 60 miles to and from work, my good lady need's a car too as we live in the countryside.

Should I by a 4X4 just to tow the van once a month, or by a fuel efficient car to use everyday, oh of coarse then there's the question of what does her lady ship drive because she doesn't like big cars.

The compromise.

I buy two cars, one just big enough to tow the van and small enough for her in doors to drive, hence the Laguna estate (well the dogs do have to come too), and for me a cheap and cheerfull Renault 5 campus, because it does 55mpg all day what ever you do to it.

I'd probably be bankrupt by now if I'd bought a disco and left the missus to get a taxi to go shopping.

Then on the other hand, if I lived in the middle of the welsh hills a disco would be more practical.

The only thing that get's my goat is why when we have any discussion about all wheel drive vehicles, is that you inevitably get the defencive "I've got a 4x4 and I don't care" plonkers instead of those who genuinely want to debate the pro's and con's of vehicles.

Besides singing the praises of Renault (because I've had good experience with them) I can also give detailed evaluation of Diahatsu F70's (because I've driven them too).

All I'll say in closing is, a balanced, good spirited debate is a good debate and those who get all touchy about their hang ups need to, sit it out.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Watching the debate from the sideline, it does amaze me a bit how many people feel the need to scrape the barrel to try to find some logical reason to justify the purchase of a 4x4. Surely, the maybe once every year or two chance of getting stuck in a field while trying to extricate a caravan isn't a good enough reason to lug a 4x4 around for the vast majority of the mileage driven while not towing. For those who go CL'ing often and are faced with a potential traction problem on a regular basis, fair enough, but why don't the others just own up and say they want a 4x4 because they like them without the urge to find some feeble excuse?
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I feel I have certainly expounded the "grin factor" of driving a 4x4 Lutz - As a self confessed Land Rover nut - nothing puts a grin on my face like a Classic Range Rover or any Series Vehicle. As for the more modern stuff - I personally could not see myself greenlaning in a
 
Mar 14, 2005
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OK Lutz WE own up we just wanted one. It's big and comfy

Val & Frank
That makes at least two of us! I'm not anti but I do wish people would stop thinking of an obscure justification for a decision that was really purely emotional and really not so much based on common sense.
 

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