4x4 Debate

[Val & Frank]

I can see both sides in this, well not sides just a difference of opinion. I think it all has to do with at what time of life you are at. Which I find is very relevant to what you can afford.

I can afford a big 4x4 to tow my equally big caravan. I can afford the fuel etc to go where I please.

Some young couples starting out, can afford a tent to fit in the boot. it's just a case of what you can afford and what do you want to spend it on. Personally I don't give a toss what other people think, I did get sucked into trying to defend my choices not anymore !!!. My choice my money, spent on what we want not what someone else thinks we shouldhave

Val & Frank

 

[Guest]

I take you point doubly Lutz!

We could leave the money in the bank but prefer to spread it around to benefit our family and friends.

The money will do us no good when we shed our mortal coils, so we enjoy it our way. We've travelled with family and friends from New Zealand and Australia around Europe in the past five years and had some wonderful times.

Back to 4 x 4 Lutz, its our choice and we make our own choice.

We own properties in 10 countries and saving money is not really an issue, our daughter runs our property business interests and we have set up a family unit so that financialy our family is secure finance wise. Our kids do not have mortgages but hey do work for a living.

We've a "little cream" that we spread around those close to us and see no reason to take grief from some sad folk who want to knock what many of us have worked for no matter how large or small the effort put in, and end result had.

 

[CliveV]

Agreed Frank - my point is that with good competent smaller 4x4's such as that available from Honda, Nissan, Toyata, Kia, Land Rover etc etc, you really do not need to compromise economy as Lutz seems to suggest.

The price of these cars with their AWD ability is not that much more than an ordinary saloon and in some cases cheaper.

Fuel economy is on a par and resale values if anything seem to be somewhat better.

So I just do not see the relevence of the 95% vs 5% augument.

As for ability in bad conditions - just one bad winter such as we had last year sends people out to buy AWD vehicles in droves.

Very sensible people they are too!

 

[Lutz]

Exactly, Frank. For those who have no problems in meeting all their desires and needs, good on them! But for those who have to make compromises, priorities must be taken and decisions made where to cut corners.

 

[Lutz]

Agreed Frank - my point is that with good competent smaller 4x4's such as that available from Honda, Nissan, Toyata, Kia, Land Rover etc etc, you really do not need to compromise economy as Lutz seems to suggest.

The price of these cars with their AWD ability is not that much more than an ordinary saloon and in some cases cheaper.

Fuel economy is on a par and resale values if anything seem to be somewhat better.

So I just do not see the relevence of the 95% vs 5% augument.

As for ability in bad conditions - just one bad winter such as we had last year sends people out to buy AWD vehicles in droves.

Very sensible people they are too!

Before swapping a car for a 4x4 just because of a bad winter I'd invest in a decent set of winter tyres.

 

[Guest]

Nice one, Frank.

Here as caravanners we could all have 12 foot 5/6 berth caravans that we could shoe horn ourselves into.

Yet some have to harp on about personal choice of tow car. There seems to be something contradictory about what the 4 x 4 anti's are on with much of the time!

 

[Lutz]

Agreed Frank - my point is that with good competent smaller 4x4's such as that available from Honda, Nissan, Toyata, Kia, Land Rover etc etc, you really do not need to compromise economy as Lutz seems to suggest.

The price of these cars with their AWD ability is not that much more than an ordinary saloon and in some cases cheaper.

Fuel economy is on a par and resale values if anything seem to be somewhat better.

So I just do not see the relevence of the 95% vs 5% augument.

As for ability in bad conditions - just one bad winter such as we had last year sends people out to buy AWD vehicles in droves.

Very sensible people they are too!

Why then are there so many fewer 4x4's used for towing caravans on the Continent although the winters there are generally more severe?

 

[Guest]

Having travelled most of Europe by road, I feel part of the answere to you question lies with narrow hilly Cornish roads and the like Lutz, plus some very basic field camp sites in the UK that are very popular with many caravanners.

 

[Val & Frank]

It is really easy to get sucked into the "debate" regarding 4x4s. So I think we should start a thread of why do peole purchase say an S type Jaguar ??.

In my earlier response I said I thought it had a lot to do with at what time of life you are at. Well just look at the average age of S type owners !!!.

I didn't buy an S type because our 27 year old son said, and I quote "they are old mens cars " So old men can afford Jaguars young couples can't. Young couples have a mortgage old men don't. It's a no brainer why we have 4x4s we don't want to be classed as old men -)

Val & Frank

 

[CliveV]

Agreed Frank - my point is that with good competent smaller 4x4's such as that available from Honda, Nissan, Toyata, Kia, Land Rover etc etc, you really do not need to compromise economy as Lutz seems to suggest.

The price of these cars with their AWD ability is not that much more than an ordinary saloon and in some cases cheaper.

Fuel economy is on a par and resale values if anything seem to be somewhat better.

So I just do not see the relevence of the 95% vs 5% augument.

As for ability in bad conditions - just one bad winter such as we had last year sends people out to buy AWD vehicles in droves.

Very sensible people they are too!

No idea Lutz - but I am sure you will enlighten us

 

[CliveV]

Exactly - you cut your cloth according to your needs and affordability -- With modern AWD cars being about the same cost as a medium sized saloon - fuel economy about the same and usually better resale values - why people choose an AWD vehicle is certainly a no-brainer.

Euro - you are correct about the roads in Cornwall in winter! In a country where the trains stop for the "wrong sort of snow" and "leaves on the line" and floods a regular part of winter driving - why put yourself at risk?

Anyone who saw the incredible floods in North Cornwall would know what I am talking about. As for my home town! The high street has been under water every year for the past five years or so thanks to the local council blocking up the old run offs and not employing "Hedgers & Ditchers" to keep the run off's clear.

This year a

 

[Guest]

On a southern French camp site we heard some brits discussing my X5 and describing it in not to nice a way.

When we saw them lording it up in Nice and out jet skiing all afternoon they seemed none to concerned about gas guzzling then, they ate in a restaurant next to us and wandered away cooing and gurgling over some very exotic Italian machinery. I doubted their hotted up Mondeo and a Jag did to well mpg wise towing as well.

But who am I to question their choice!

 

[Lutz]

I think Euro has part of the answer why there are fewer 4x4's on the Continent used for towing caravans, Clive. CL-type sites are almost unknown so there is less necessity for towing ability over wet grass. Winter tyres are compulsory for all cars and winter tyres do offer a significant improvement in traction even without snow and ice. The rest of the answer is in the running costs. While I agree with you that the purchase price is not necessarily an issue (at least a used 4x4 need not be more expensive than a new saloon) but road tax and insurance is so much higher. As I mentioned in another post, Vehicle Tax in Germany is based on engine size and exhaust emissions (Euro3/Euro4 rating, etc.). Vehicles over 2500kg GVW are also rated one step worse than their actual emissions rating, i.e. a heavy Euro3 4x4 is taxed as a Euro2. Being penalised both on engine size and weight makes people think twice about buying one.

 

[Guest]

We may all be part of Europe but fashions play a big part in the differences between us.

Lots of Brits have owned numerous homes and trends re home purchase and rental our very different I believe as UK, German and others humour and socialising habits are quite different as well.

 

[Lol1]

Personally I believe that the majority of 4x4 owners are posers and if you want to pose you pay.Jim

I'll take you up on that Clive, I have missed my farmers weekly, so you should do just fine ;o)

Jim, its not only 4x4 owners that will have pay, all those Ford Mondeo and Vauhall Vectra drivers, along with people carriers and just about anything with a 2 ltr engine or above will have to pay.

That's an awfull lot of posturing...

 

[CliveV]

Certainly true - There was a chance some years ago that i was going to work in Holland for about three years. When talking about it I naturally (for a Brit) assumed that I would buy a place. I was advised not to because house prices went down as well as up.

Far better to rent I was told - and indeed most people did as they said you got better protection under Dutch Law and if you needed to move you did not have to consider the vagaries of the housing market.

This was back in the mid 1990's - it would be interesting to see if the same is still true.

 

[Guest]

Trends and fashions are quite a big factor country to country. Some years ago French friends were quite cool about my new estate car and could not understand why I would buy it.

They explained that estate cars were associated with tradesman and manual blue collar workers. The estate car was not chic enough for them. I understand that Citroen Picasso and similiar cars are a French / European kind of half way design trade off between being seen in the "right" status of car and practical use.

 

[CliveV]

The Americans are somewhat similar. Aparently the reason why their estate cars had fake wood all down the side in the past was because of the association of unbedecked vehicles with manual work. Apparently the false wood added that "little something" for our American cousins!

Interestingly the advent of the "Truck" turned all this on its head and now the truck is a fashion statement in its own right. And of course in view of their size and tax advantages incur the wrath of the Anti's. A sillynes so desperatly copied by the numpties of the Anti Urban 4x4 nazi alliance.

Aussies are similar with the tradesmans "Ute" (utility vehicle) becoming a sought after vehicle.

 

[Paul_5129117]

How do the French take their rubbish to the tip without using an estate car?

How do they take their chidren back and forth to university and help them fly the nest without an estate car to get the stereo and computers in?

I would be lost without my trusty Volvo estate and yes it is a 4x4. I have found that any caravan over about 1100 Kg is just begging for a front wheel drive to slip and slither on damp grass especially in the spring.

I am happy to smile and admire anyones 4x4 if it has a tow hook on it - it's the 'Chelsea Taxis' on the school run that seems to upset most people, me included. They seem bigger than a bus when you are on a bike!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

I am all for higher road tax on bigger cars, 4wd or 2wd.

The onus has been on fuel efficientcy for years.

Twice on this thread i have read that a modern 4x4 is as good

on fuel as a 2wd!

I suggest that you look at the volvo, to name one, they make the

same vehicle with both systems and the mpg, is not the same.

Nor should it be a surprise as you are using extra driveshafts

this takes extra bhp which in turn means more fuel.

The anti argument is fun, as people try to justify the reasons

they have these cars!.

I don't believe you need to justify anything, this is something

that people do when they feel guilty!

So why is there a resentment towards large vehicles and 4x4 in

particular?

Come on, you ALL know why, its the chelsea tractor syndrome.

I very much doubt that very many of this forum belong to

that club, as i have yet to see a towbar on any such vehicle.

Lighten up.......

 

[354]

I dont have to ask permision to purchase a 4x4, nor do I feel guilty at owning a 4x4. I do so because I want to, if anyone doesnt like it that is tough.

lets see the green brigade direct their energy towards high performance sports cars and top range executive cars. After all they use a lot more energy to make, and run .

 

[Guest]

Giovanni.

In case it is a little difficult for the anti brigade to work out. If you buy a more expensive 4 x 4 you pay more duty and VAT and if it uses more fuel you also have to pay that extra tax.

4 x 4 due to the looks stand out and I suggest that a large majority of the little Britain moaners are just jealous in a have and have not way.

I don't really give a fig what you or any one else thinks about what I drive, but the moaning does get a little sad.

I pay a lot of tax on our 60k + car and a lot to run it wherever I happen to be, my local French garage owners greet me like a long son when I fill my car there. As the UK government makes a whole load more money than the garage owners when I'm here I resent being treated like a lepper when they are glad to take my cash.

Brits are well known for knocking those who have made a few bob and as far as I can see the majority of Chelsea tractor moaners only have green issues within their own eyes.

 

[CliveV]

Agreed - at least we CAN justify why we have AWD vehicles!

The anti's have yet to justify why they think we shouldn't!!! Every augument they quote has been shot down in flames.

The latest CO2 emmission data and what they say on their own website is an absolute classic!

Only when they realise that the general public do not like being lied to and manipulated will they realise the error of their ways and simply fade away.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Giovanni.

In case it is a little difficult for the anti brigade to work out. If you buy a more expensive 4 x 4 you pay more duty and VAT and if it uses more fuel you also have to pay that extra tax.

4 x 4 due to the looks stand out and I suggest that a large majority of the little Britain moaners are just jealous in a have and have not way.

I don't really give a fig what you or any one else thinks about what I drive, but the moaning does get a little sad.

I pay a lot of tax on our 60k + car and a lot to run it wherever I happen to be, my local French garage owners greet me like a long son when I fill my car there. As the UK government makes a whole load more money than the garage owners when I'm here I resent being treated like a lepper when they are glad to take my cash.

Brits are well known for knocking those who have made a few bob and as far as I can see the majority of Chelsea tractor moaners only have green issues within their own eyes.

euro.

i thought my post was quite resonable, alas you seem to take

offence with everything that i said, which it would seem you

believe was aimed at you!

I am not going to go down the green lane, yet i note YOU did try

to earlier with your statement proclaiming the use of solar

power, balancing what extra pollution your vehicles make!

note.

I did say no one needs to justify their choice, you alas see the

need to do so!

Unfortunatly for you i do not fall into the what you call

jealous brigade, nor do i bragg about wealth, whether i have it

or not is my buisness, but you have made yours quite clear.!

You also presume that those who you believe to be knocking 4x4

and large cars, belong to the cannot afford brigrade.

Now that is chelsea tractor arrogance for you.

I do not want or need a chelsea tractor,but what makes you think

i cannot afford one?

the fact is i do not need to show off my wealth, i am

comfortable with out the need for fallic symbols.

clive v. mpg. did you check out the 4x4 against 2wd volvo?

 

[Guest]

euro.

i thought my post was quite resonable, alas you seem to take

offence with everything that i said, which it would seem you

believe was aimed at you!

I am not going to go down the green lane, yet i note YOU did try

to earlier with your statement proclaiming the use of solar

power, balancing what extra pollution your vehicles make!

note.

I did say no one needs to justify their choice, you alas see the

need to do so!

Unfortunatly for you i do not fall into the what you call

jealous brigade, nor do i bragg about wealth, whether i have it

or not is my buisness, but you have made yours quite clear.!

You also presume that those who you believe to be knocking 4x4

and large cars, belong to the cannot afford brigrade.

Now that is chelsea tractor arrogance for you.

I do not want or need a chelsea tractor,but what makes you think

i cannot afford one?

the fact is i do not need to show off my wealth, i am

comfortable with out the need for fallic symbols.

clive v. mpg. did you check out the 4x4 against 2wd volvo?

Giovani I actually posted as a point of balance that one car does not make a person the complete enemy of Green issues.

What I posted was -

"Brits are well known for knocking those who have made a few bob and as far as I can see the majority of Chelsea tractor moaners only have green issues within their own eyes."

Yet you seemed to have lumped yourself in with my veiw, I wonder why.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight but I was pointing out FACT. You go off on juvenile "phalic" comments and about wealth, it is just plain fact that a lot of tax is paid on an expensive car. As you now appear to be hinting at your wealth and and godly like abstinence you are falling more into the hurt and jealous trap.

Many of the knockers re green issues soon fall from their high moral ground if you look close enough.

I never suggested that YOU could not afford whatever takes your fancy, so how come ou come acoss so hurt. For one trying to knock re green issues and 4 x 4's why the stoop to tired

" Chelsea Tractor and Phalic" comments.

For one who I assume is trying to make legitimate comment, silly name calling does not actually help your cause.