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85% debate continuation
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It has been suggested by some contributors that unless there is a fully tested and proven alternative, then its wrong to question the industries present advice. Are these people really wishing to prevent sensible discussion about a subject that is controversial becasue it challenges a long held tradition?
The human race would not have got very far from inventing the wheel if all new ideas had to be proven before they could even be discussed. This is tantamount to a gagging order.
History has many incidents of where visionaries have looked logically at issues and come to some startling new conceptual ideas which challenge traditional views. These traditions have often been an important core of some organisations beliefs, and the organisation has responded with vitriol and worse even putting some people to death for simply questioning a concept.I'm just waiting for the caravanner's inquisition to come knocking!
Yet subsequently many of these new idea's are proven, some examples being: the earth being a globular planet and not the centre of the universe, the forces of Gravity, the constitution of light, the concept of natural selection, the ability to travel faster than some notional limit etc.
Each of these concepts were tested and shown to be different to the historical stories.
I am not claiming that finding a better way to establish satisfactory car and caravan matches will be as ground breaking as some of those prior scientific revelations, but there is nothing bad about looking and could be plenty of good about discussing the issues.
If anyone has thought about the issues affecting outfit matching, and through a logical approach, still comes to the conclusion that the present 85% is the best way of expressing the matching, then perhaps you could share your thoughts and reasons processes with us.
The human race would not have got very far from inventing the wheel if all new ideas had to be proven before they could even be discussed. This is tantamount to a gagging order.
History has many incidents of where visionaries have looked logically at issues and come to some startling new conceptual ideas which challenge traditional views. These traditions have often been an important core of some organisations beliefs, and the organisation has responded with vitriol and worse even putting some people to death for simply questioning a concept.I'm just waiting for the caravanner's inquisition to come knocking!
Yet subsequently many of these new idea's are proven, some examples being: the earth being a globular planet and not the centre of the universe, the forces of Gravity, the constitution of light, the concept of natural selection, the ability to travel faster than some notional limit etc.
Each of these concepts were tested and shown to be different to the historical stories.
I am not claiming that finding a better way to establish satisfactory car and caravan matches will be as ground breaking as some of those prior scientific revelations, but there is nothing bad about looking and could be plenty of good about discussing the issues.
If anyone has thought about the issues affecting outfit matching, and through a logical approach, still comes to the conclusion that the present 85% is the best way of expressing the matching, then perhaps you could share your thoughts and reasons processes with us.
Clearly you will therefore miss any responses that might be made, but IMO new caravanners could be significantly helped by it.
A better understanding on what matters, or could matter when deciding on anything, always helps.
I am not an advocate of 85%. The new comer to caravanning however needs some very basic guides. The Dealer has a very difficult position. He cannot discuss to the nth degree like we have and we will continue to do so on here. I’m all for discussion, even some wild views which may indeed in the long run be correct.
What may I ask to everyone should the Dealers advice be🤔🤔
What may I ask to everyone should the Dealers advice be🤔🤔
Parksy
Moderator
I haven't seen any posts which prevent you from discussing the 85% recommendation Prof.
Personally speaking I'm slightly curious about the apparent long held fixation on this one facet of generally accepted towing ratio wisdom, but if endless and ultimately fruitless debate about the 85% recommendation keeps you happy please continue, nobody can stop you as long as you avoid hijacking other threads.
I've seen this debate continue over several years with no apparent conclusions, it has continued to go in circles on this thread, just as we've become accustomed to over the years.
I must admit to a passing interest in what alternative advice should replace the 85% recommendation, but from what I've seen over the years the same old ground is covered with the advice being challenged, often with misleading assertions about the advice being suggested as a stand alone facet of towing when in fact that is far from the case and with no logical conclusion or result.
I have reinforced the 85% recommendation on this thread, simply to avoid any novice caravanner reading the various assertions and theories and being more confused than ever.
You are quite welcome to continue with your discussions which challenge the received wisdom that currently exists, but you can hardly expect your own challenge to pass without comments contrary to your line of thought, it's nothing personal.
It's fine to question the boundaries of accepted practice, but it's unrealistic for anyone to theorise within the public arena without their theories being challenged.
Parksy
Moderator
If you don't like this thread scroll on past it Hutch.
It's up to the various participants to decide when to stop.
The title of this thread is the 85% debate continuation. I started it becasue the concern about the present advice is real, and it needs to be open to be discussed without detracting form other threads.
Knowing how controversial the subject is, I had little expectation this thread would produce a concise new proposal for offering advice to caravanners. So this is not the thread for new caravanners to presently get solid advice.
What is distilling from what has been said so far is the present advice does seem to major on the weight ratio figure in most answers, when it should be offering the wider views on load distribution, maintenance and driving habits. This shouldn't upset the hardliners as it still incorporates the infamous ratio calculation.
But we still lack the knowledge of how the present advice was derived and on what evidence it was based, and whether its still the best way to assess tow matching.
I doubt we will get any input from any of the industry bodies to clear up these questions.
To answer Hutch's point's scoring accusation, Its not a question of one upmanship , its about sensible discussion about tow matching and related points to try to establish how to derive some practical advice for caravanners.
Knowing how controversial the subject is, I had little expectation this thread would produce a concise new proposal for offering advice to caravanners. So this is not the thread for new caravanners to presently get solid advice.
What is distilling from what has been said so far is the present advice does seem to major on the weight ratio figure in most answers, when it should be offering the wider views on load distribution, maintenance and driving habits. This shouldn't upset the hardliners as it still incorporates the infamous ratio calculation.
But we still lack the knowledge of how the present advice was derived and on what evidence it was based, and whether its still the best way to assess tow matching.
I doubt we will get any input from any of the industry bodies to clear up these questions.
To answer Hutch's point's scoring accusation, Its not a question of one upmanship , its about sensible discussion about tow matching and related points to try to establish how to derive some practical advice for caravanners.
Hello Parksy,
Challenge is what's needed, its only from challenge/investigation that core strengths and weakness of a process can be confirmed as effective or not. But the challenge has to be based on reasoned arguments. Simply repeating the stock answer which is a affirmation of the ingrained tradition does nothing to further exploration of the subject.
Why was 85% chosen? and how was it chosen?
Someone somewhere must know, Why they are so afraid of disclosing it?
Challenge is what's needed, its only from challenge/investigation that core strengths and weakness of a process can be confirmed as effective or not. But the challenge has to be based on reasoned arguments. Simply repeating the stock answer which is a affirmation of the ingrained tradition does nothing to further exploration of the subject.
Why was 85% chosen? and how was it chosen?
Someone somewhere must know, Why they are so afraid of disclosing it?
The various research papers produced by The University of Bath Fellows amongst many statements suggest that reducing towcar weight lowers the critical speed at which negative damping and hence snaking can occur. It's simple physics (well, maybe not so simple ??🤪🤪. I do not like some of the suggestions on here that stabilisers, ATC and so on lead to a safer tow. Not true as we all know. The origin of “85%” is the Holy Grail with no demonstrable evidence. Maybe of more relevance is the fact that modern day caravans have grown longer than my first 12 footer making a more damped pendulum swing🤔🤔🤔
JTQ........your alternative advice is of value if you are in the market for a new tow car and can choose the attributes you recommend but even then you surely have to relate the size and weight of your choice to the size and weight of the caravan it will tow.
How does your advice help a person who has never towed and wants to buy a caravan for his present car to tow?
Very difficult to tell such a person that their rear overhang on their car is too great so they can't tow safely.
How does your advice help a person who has never towed and wants to buy a caravan for his present car to tow?
Very difficult to tell such a person that their rear overhang on their car is too great so they can't tow safely.
Parksy
Moderator
I'm not convinced that the organisations that recommend the 85% ratio are afraid to disclose their reasons for the recommendation Prof.
You are assuming that whoever first came up with the 85% recommendation is aware of the existence of this forum, looks at it and looks at your theories and assertions on various theeads including this one, and then feels compelled to reply to you.
That's a lot of assumptions.
I asked Practical Caravan Magazine why the 85% figure was chosen some time ago and the reply was that it is considered a safe starting point for novice caravanners which would be unlikely to endanger them.
Why don't you email the current editor of the magazine to ask her, or submit your email to the readers letters page?
You never know, you could win a pair of Milenco Grand Aero towing mirrors.
If you don't want them you could always advertise them for sale on the forum marketplace. 😊
Bill,
JTQ........your alternative advice is of value if you are in the market for a new tow car and can choose the attributes you recommend but even then you surely have to relate the size and weight of your choice to the size and weight of the caravan it will tow.
I have never said you don't need to, it is a big factor in maintaining stability, all I stress it is far from the only one.
How does your advice help a person who has never towed and wants to buy a caravan for his present car to tow?
They start as guided thinking in terms of 85%, but their partner's desire works out at 90%. Then realising their car is a swat vehicle, with a short overhang, and long wheelbase, this mitigates exceeding the usual guidance by a tolerable amount.
Ninety percent in a well suited car should be fine, even better than an 85% match with an ill suited vehicle. [Remember this very same guidance could send an experienced tower off at 100% with a pig of a poor but substantial tow car. ]
Should the novice's vehicle not have these attributes, then they have a “domestic” on their hands.
Very difficult to tell such a person that their rear overhang on their car is too great so they can't tow safely.
Best somebody tells them if it is as you say they can't tow safely with that overhang, than they go and find out. Man up and tell them.
JTQ........your alternative advice is of value if you are in the market for a new tow car and can choose the attributes you recommend but even then you surely have to relate the size and weight of your choice to the size and weight of the caravan it will tow.
I have never said you don't need to, it is a big factor in maintaining stability, all I stress it is far from the only one.
How does your advice help a person who has never towed and wants to buy a caravan for his present car to tow?
They start as guided thinking in terms of 85%, but their partner's desire works out at 90%. Then realising their car is a swat vehicle, with a short overhang, and long wheelbase, this mitigates exceeding the usual guidance by a tolerable amount.
Ninety percent in a well suited car should be fine, even better than an 85% match with an ill suited vehicle. [Remember this very same guidance could send an experienced tower off at 100% with a pig of a poor but substantial tow car. ]
Should the novice's vehicle not have these attributes, then they have a “domestic” on their hands.
Very difficult to tell such a person that their rear overhang on their car is too great so they can't tow safely.
Best somebody tells them if it is as you say they can't tow safely with that overhang, than they go and find out. Man up and tell them.
My Saab 9000 CSE had a substantial overhang and towed very well at 90% probably because I loaded it up. Just look at the Skoda Superb estate with its towbar hanging out behind what some would call a substantial overhang. Yet how many Towcar awards has the Superb been given? Several ever since Generation 1 arrived in UK. My 2014 Superb estate was rock solid and never gave any cause fir concern. But again it had low profile tyres, 4wd and was well loaded. Is there a theme developing in my post?
So I fail to be convinced that overhang is a particularly objective measure of a cars towing ability.
I actually wrote
"It has been suggested by some contributors that unless there is a fully tested and proven alternative, then its wrong to question the industries present advice."
That is not the same thing as "prevents".
I note the thread is beginning to peak your interest now!
The fixation as you put it is that the present advice has been shown in some instances to not be the best and some people who have used it have had stability issues. Others have exceeded the advice and had no problems at all, so the question is, does the present advice actually offer any real help? and It keeps coming back to the lack of clarity about how the advice was formulated.
I'd agree so far there hasn't been a conclusion, but to prejudge the issue and and say there isn't a a possible conclusion is as yet premature.
Until the issue is scientifically tested there can't be an evidence based alternative. and whilst it would be nice to have a simple calculation like the one presently used, I do fear it would be a more complex one.
Trying to think back to when i started; we bought the caravan and had the car-dealer said it should be Ok and advised us against a bigger van. Went home and researched the Government website-didn't look at caravan forums at all and didn't realise this sort of debate advice existed at all. Being an experienced driver having read the very unclear confusing advice on the government site I decided towing capacity of the car was key to legality, we were legal,end of. When we upgraded to a new caravan that was 113% of kerbweight was when I realised there were other lines of advice-and then the salesmen fell out! We bought the van anyway and decided to upgrade the car if it felt unstable--quite the reverse it towed better than the Avondale that was lighter and we lived happily ever after till SWMBO got the Truck bug and I stupidly said well we can tow anything now !
I had towed a small windsurfing trailer for many years behind a Toyota Mr2. Now that car could tow-engine in the back, plenty of power. Light trailer-should've seen the faces of the Sunday drivers when obeying the speed limits, I over took them with ease,when safe to do so of course!
I had towed a small windsurfing trailer for many years behind a Toyota Mr2. Now that car could tow-engine in the back, plenty of power. Light trailer-should've seen the faces of the Sunday drivers when obeying the speed limits, I over took them with ease,when safe to do so of course!
This debate about 85% ratio has been ongoing for as long as caravans have been towed, no conclusion as to the right or wrong has ever been agreed and it’s a certainty that it never will, the end of towing caravans will come to an end with the growth of electric vehicles that are so far away from being mainstream for everyday use and as far as manufacturers are concerned designing an electric car that can tow a caravan over a decent distance has probably not even entered designers mind, the only purpose of this particular topic is that it gives various people an opportunity to show how clever they think they are, how many times has it been said here it needs caravan companies, car companies, the government and Uncle Tom cobbly and all to get their act together and do a scientific review of weight ratios of cars and caravans, this debate has even priced it up as to how much it’s going to cost, in fact there’s no need for any of these companies to do anything, let’s just start a crowd funding page and the experts on here will have it all sorted in a jiffy, we had better start another topic to decide how long a Jiffy actually is so it can be determined exactly how long the experts are going to take, maybe these experts can give the definition of how long a piece of string is while they ponder the actual time of a jiffy.
BP
BP
As far as I can ascertain 85% was conceived by the then Caravan Club 46 years ago. A lot has happened since then with major technological advances in both cars and caravans.
Go caravan, Bailey and Swift all now advocate 90% as a guide line. I suspect five years on this suggestion may increase further to 100%😎
Go caravan, Bailey and Swift all now advocate 90% as a guide line. I suspect five years on this suggestion may increase further to 100%😎
BP.......my input has been almost entirely based on witnessing several catastrophic caravan accidents from the front seat vantage point from driving a following truck.
Most were instigated by the bow wave of a truck that was being overtaken causing the initial instability.
I am in favour of taking any precautions to prevent such an outcome including observing the 85% advice.
It is part of driving a 13ft high, 50ft long artic ........that you are very wary of passing caravan outfits.......you have to be prepared to slow down and move to your left if possible. You would be surprised how common these incidents are....luckily in most incidents control is regained.
The truck is doing 56mph....the caravan outfit is doing 60mph .....you can't say anyone is doing anything wrong.
I am convinced that keeping the caravan lighter than the tow car is of benefit.
despite arguments to the contrary.
I don't claim any expertise!
Most were instigated by the bow wave of a truck that was being overtaken causing the initial instability.
I am in favour of taking any precautions to prevent such an outcome including observing the 85% advice.
It is part of driving a 13ft high, 50ft long artic ........that you are very wary of passing caravan outfits.......you have to be prepared to slow down and move to your left if possible. You would be surprised how common these incidents are....luckily in most incidents control is regained.
The truck is doing 56mph....the caravan outfit is doing 60mph .....you can't say anyone is doing anything wrong.
I am convinced that keeping the caravan lighter than the tow car is of benefit.
despite arguments to the contrary.
I don't claim any expertise!
Last edited:
Dusty
it must be so lovely to be an optimist. 🙂🙂
46 years for a small number of bodies to move from 85% to 90%. More like fifty years to make 100%. By then folks will be taking their trips by virtual reality where you can dial in any percentage you like, loaded how you like and with adjustable overhang. My great grandchildren will do the research that many yearn for by default. 😗
Gaffer I too use my 45 years of driving all sorts of vehicles to have the sense to know what is fairly safe and what isn’t, when I was probably around 20 years old which is decades ago I bought an old caravan had a towbar fitted or actually I probably fitted it myself, and hitched up and off we went with no clue as to weights etc, by pure luck we had a few days away and got home in one piece the next day I put the caravan up for sale as it was not for me, 20 years later I did some research and purchased a caravan and I’ve towed on and off ever since using experience and research and I’ve not yet had any problem, I’ve bought caravans that my logbook/V5 says I’m legal to tow and I’ve yet to weigh what I’m loading into the caravan, I’ve never weighed my nose weight or any weight other than my weight after 2 weeks of full English breakfasts any I’ve managed to survive, ok so some people have little or no common sense and need guidance, if I was starting as a caravanner now and I came on here to get some guidance I’m sure I’d have decided to get a tent instead,
Whether realistic, sensible or not, the figures are entirely arbitrary and I would challenge anyone to be able to tell the difference between 85% and 90% in the way the outfit handles. It's just that a figure somewhere around 85% or 90% can be considered as a rough starting point, failing the availability of more precise information relating specifically to the actual outfit under consideration.
Parksy
Moderator
I'm no expert Beehpee, all that I'm doing is trying to add a touch of realism to the pontificating by repeating the advice that already exists.
The 85% debating society is contained all in one place now and the title of this thread makes the content obvious.
Any future hijacking posts with regard to the 85% towing weight ratio that usually appear whenever a new forum member asks a reasonably simple question will be shunted by me straight to this thread.
If it's pouring with rain outside, the caravan is back at the dealers or every site that a member wants to visit is fully booked, they can come here to indulge in a bit of brains trust one-upmanship to while away the hours.
Members who are fed up of seeing the same old thing can easily avoid it now by scrolling past it.
Simple 😊
Hi parksy I don’t list people who seem to want to dissect this subject to the Nth degree purposely because I’m not posting to criticise any individual and certainly not yourself who I have nothing but good to say about yourself for the level headed none biased replies you post, or the likes of Gafferbill who posts sensible responses based on experience, it’s the scientific answers that seem more likely to put new caravanners off this excellent forum and even to think they won’t caravan at all as they need a degree to understand how to tow, the majority on here seem friendly normal people who genuinely want to help novices rather than tying people in knots until they give up trying to understand and just manage with a wing and a prayer.
BP
BP
Prof. I understandwhat you say, but bearing in mind the ratio is promoted by both clubs and the NCC as the best advice for newcomers, it can be produced in court and would be a powerful argument. Civil Law id based on negligence, and the legal status of the ratio is not the point. The defence solicitors would have to assess the position in a claim and my feeling is that they would probably suggest compromise. Having dealt with Professional Indemnity Claims this is a growing area, although I have not met this specific point.
Basically if the salesperson is asked for adivice or is aware that the 85% ratio would be exceeded, it is their duty to point out they are exceeding this figure. It is however advice as you say and if the customer, being made aware of this chooses to go ahead, the customer has made an informed choice and the dealer is protected.
Basically if the salesperson is asked for adivice or is aware that the 85% ratio would be exceeded, it is their duty to point out they are exceeding this figure. It is however advice as you say and if the customer, being made aware of this chooses to go ahead, the customer has made an informed choice and the dealer is protected.
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