I would also point out that every situation is different and different techniques can have a positive outcome.
If the electronic stabilisers work by applying the brakes, I don't quite see why doing the same with your right foot should be any different (unless the sources are advising against such action on the grounds that one might inadvertently do an emergency brake instead of just enough to get the overrun brake to operate).
Not knowing how electronic stabilisers work on the van my guess would be that the van brakes are applied and not the car brakes thus not unsettling the car.
There are two sorts of electronic stabiliser, one is the type fitted to the caravan which works as you say, the other is a further development of the car's ESP, known as TSP or Trailer Stability Programme. This works by applying the brakes on the car.
I've been reading this thread with interest and it's made me think about towing/stability. I just happened to be on a short trip on the M6 today (collecting my van from the dealers - another story!) and within a couple of miles I came across a caravan on it's side against the central reservation, the tow vehicle on the hard shoulder, ambulance crew loading the injured driver on a stretcher and the tow vehicle was...a discovery (about 05 plate I think it was). It was a single axle caravan and a level section of the motorway. I'm not trying to make a point other than it brought it home to me what the result of such an accident looks like!
Just the view of a passing Physicist...
If electronic brakes are activated on the caravan then the caravan will brake more than the car, causing the separation of the car and caravan and naturally straightening them (counteracting any snaking movement).
If electronic brakes are activated on the caravan then the caravan will brake more than the car, causing the separation of the car and caravan and naturally straightening them (counteracting any snaking movement).
Hi Dave this was I thought and as you say it should pull the two apart and thus the snaking would stop.
I would still say breaking with the car has an adverse effect and thus lifting off the gas settles things down without adding more unbalance.
I would still say breaking with the car has an adverse effect and thus lifting off the gas settles things down without adding more unbalance.
I can assure you that an electronic stabiliser that acts on the towing vehicle's braking system works. The car manufacturers have developed and tested this system to prove its ability before introducing it in production.
Here again, there are two variants. One is the basic system that only applies the brakes on all four wheels just enough to ensure that the overrun brake on the caravan is operated. The more advanced system applies brakes individually to all four wheels of the towcar so that as the car swerves to one side only the wheels on the opposite side are braked, thus straightening the car out again at the same time as ensuring that the overrun brake is operated, too.
Here again, there are two variants. One is the basic system that only applies the brakes on all four wheels just enough to ensure that the overrun brake on the caravan is operated. The more advanced system applies brakes individually to all four wheels of the towcar so that as the car swerves to one side only the wheels on the opposite side are braked, thus straightening the car out again at the same time as ensuring that the overrun brake is operated, too.
I have just posted the thread below in resopnse to nose weight issues, but I think it just about sums up the issues heer too.
Simon has made a few very valid observations.
But below is my ten peneth.
3 Jun 2007 08:10 AM I'm afraid this is where I get on my soap box.
First of all you must not exceed the "LOWER"stated nose/hitch weight of either the caravan or the tow bar of the car.
If you have excessive nose weight you run the risk of the caravan over run brake mechanisum failing to operate due to excessive frictional resistance in the bushes caused by excess weight.
I all too often see cars towing caravans with the back of the car almost on the floor and the front is heading for the stars. This is clearly too much nose weight and bloody dangerous. You see as soon as you hit the brakes in vengence, the wheels lock up and you have lost steering control. Most cars these days are front wheel drive and in the load condition described you will have difficulty pulling away from junctions without spinning the wheels.
By the way all of the above is also illegal under "construction and use" or "dangerous/driving without due care and attention" laws. 3 points and a hefty fine is the result if caught.
Firstly you should establish the correct nose weight for your caravan via the manufacturer or an owners club. Then consult your car hand book and talk to the tow bar manufacturer to get the data for your car. The lowest figure quote by either is the max safe/legal nose weight.
For my oufit 75Kgs is the figure and towing at between 65 and 75Kgs on the hitch gives an excellent tow even with a 20ft twin axle van behind our 1998 Laguna estate. (100% of cars tow capacity)
I would say conservatively that 75% of all towing accidents are caused by lack of attention to load distribution and that means any trailer.
I'm afraid the next comment might twang a few raw nerves among our "all wheel drive community", but all too often I get the impression that the ill informed car driver seeks comfort in using a heavy 4X4 to compensate for poor loading skills.
Now before the barage of insults start about what I drive or how I drive, I will add that I have driven all types of tow vehicles from a Morris Minor, Landrover, Diahatsu, Unimog etc etc right upto 44 ton artics. Oh and of coarse driven cars faster than most folk can think of as I'm an experimental engineer and prototype tester by trade. Im also AIM and ROSPA trained and approved by Aston Martin/Lotus for high speed test track driving.
Even with a large repatoire of experience and 30 years of towing behind me, I still weigh the hitch before a journey. Also as with any driving I still see things to learn from on the roads to day.
It's attention to the fine details that will make your caravanning life both easy and enjoyable.
Steve L.
Simon has made a few very valid observations.
But below is my ten peneth.
3 Jun 2007 08:10 AM I'm afraid this is where I get on my soap box.
First of all you must not exceed the "LOWER"stated nose/hitch weight of either the caravan or the tow bar of the car.
If you have excessive nose weight you run the risk of the caravan over run brake mechanisum failing to operate due to excessive frictional resistance in the bushes caused by excess weight.
I all too often see cars towing caravans with the back of the car almost on the floor and the front is heading for the stars. This is clearly too much nose weight and bloody dangerous. You see as soon as you hit the brakes in vengence, the wheels lock up and you have lost steering control. Most cars these days are front wheel drive and in the load condition described you will have difficulty pulling away from junctions without spinning the wheels.
By the way all of the above is also illegal under "construction and use" or "dangerous/driving without due care and attention" laws. 3 points and a hefty fine is the result if caught.
Firstly you should establish the correct nose weight for your caravan via the manufacturer or an owners club. Then consult your car hand book and talk to the tow bar manufacturer to get the data for your car. The lowest figure quote by either is the max safe/legal nose weight.
For my oufit 75Kgs is the figure and towing at between 65 and 75Kgs on the hitch gives an excellent tow even with a 20ft twin axle van behind our 1998 Laguna estate. (100% of cars tow capacity)
I would say conservatively that 75% of all towing accidents are caused by lack of attention to load distribution and that means any trailer.
I'm afraid the next comment might twang a few raw nerves among our "all wheel drive community", but all too often I get the impression that the ill informed car driver seeks comfort in using a heavy 4X4 to compensate for poor loading skills.
Now before the barage of insults start about what I drive or how I drive, I will add that I have driven all types of tow vehicles from a Morris Minor, Landrover, Diahatsu, Unimog etc etc right upto 44 ton artics. Oh and of coarse driven cars faster than most folk can think of as I'm an experimental engineer and prototype tester by trade. Im also AIM and ROSPA trained and approved by Aston Martin/Lotus for high speed test track driving.
Even with a large repatoire of experience and 30 years of towing behind me, I still weigh the hitch before a journey. Also as with any driving I still see things to learn from on the roads to day.
It's attention to the fine details that will make your caravanning life both easy and enjoyable.
Steve L.
IN REPLY TO / steve in Leo /....I Totally agree with you!I have been driving since the age of 10, started on the farm on tractors and over the years driven and towed just about everything there is to tow./ I have all the licences Car, Bike , HGV Class 1, tracks etc so I can even drive a tank! Spent 10 years haevy hauling up and down the M6 and seen some horrific accidents but every day you see the idiots with the 4X4 and mostly twin axle caravans ( but also some single axle units)overtaking on the motorway sometimes even in lane 3 at speeds of 75 +......Then when they have an accident they expact an Ambulance!!!!! I'd leave the B####rds lying there at the side of the road!!! It's the other innocent people that they plough into that I feel sorry For!...........Any comments from the 4x4 brigade !! Bring it On!!
and another disco involved
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/swanews/display.var.1444429.0.five_injured_in_m4_caravan_crash.php
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/swanews/display.var.1444429.0.five_injured_in_m4_caravan_crash.php
In fairness the report doesn't suggest that the Disco was the cause of the accident. It could just as well have been pure lack of due care and attention on the part of the driver and the fact that a Disco was involved purely coincidental.
Our works drivers are trained to drive at a higher level than many drivers.
When encountering problems driving Disco's, over compensation and to sharp a reaction to the sittuation has caused serious problems for those new to driving the vehicles and that is without a caravan in tow.
The compromise between off road ability and user comfort and issues such as tyre choice has often been an issue for some Disco's.
Recently at work we had a report circulated to us about how some 4 x 4's behave in difficult road sittuations as most of us are trained to drive 4 x 4's, what we read was not news to us.
I don't see these posts as anti Disco but as fair warning.
As superb a vehicle Disco's are in 4 x 4 mode older models can have drawbacks on road, a caravan in tow adds another dimension as it does for all tuggers.
We all surely know of the famed Disco roll when cornering, many drivers have very basic driving skills and the drivers needs to be as able as the car, not expect the car to get him/her out of trouble.
Jumping out of 20 + years as Mondeo man with a clean driving record is no real preparation for an out of control sittuation with a 4 x 4 of any brand with a caravan in tow.
If your choice is 4 X 4 go and learn how to use it and know its limits.
James
When encountering problems driving Disco's, over compensation and to sharp a reaction to the sittuation has caused serious problems for those new to driving the vehicles and that is without a caravan in tow.
The compromise between off road ability and user comfort and issues such as tyre choice has often been an issue for some Disco's.
Recently at work we had a report circulated to us about how some 4 x 4's behave in difficult road sittuations as most of us are trained to drive 4 x 4's, what we read was not news to us.
I don't see these posts as anti Disco but as fair warning.
As superb a vehicle Disco's are in 4 x 4 mode older models can have drawbacks on road, a caravan in tow adds another dimension as it does for all tuggers.
We all surely know of the famed Disco roll when cornering, many drivers have very basic driving skills and the drivers needs to be as able as the car, not expect the car to get him/her out of trouble.
Jumping out of 20 + years as Mondeo man with a clean driving record is no real preparation for an out of control sittuation with a 4 x 4 of any brand with a caravan in tow.
If your choice is 4 X 4 go and learn how to use it and know its limits.
James
I have to agree, James. However, I would go further and include training for everyone that intends to tow at their vehicles max capacity. How anyone here can say, yes I understand vehicle dynamics, is beyond me. Even those that do it for a living, can get it wrong. It doesn't seem to stop the finger pointers though.
As Lutz says, nobody knows what causes these accidents, was it the Disco, the driver, the overtaking truck, or the small animal that ran onto the road that caused the swerve (if there was one)?
Is it coincidence that the Disco is probably the most common tug on the road, so naturally will be involved with more incidents that less common cars?
Does the Disco have soft suspension? Stand on your cars tow ball and look at the comparison, a normal car will sink on it's suspension quite notably, the Disco may sink a couple of inches, but still have plenty in reserve. So which handles better, the car with no suspension left or the 4x4 that's built for heavy loads?
Just a few things for the detractors to think about.
Besides, it this is going to degrade into a 4x4 thing, it needs moving to the tow car section, and if, while its being moved, it accidentally gets deleted, I won't shed a tear.
As Lutz says, nobody knows what causes these accidents, was it the Disco, the driver, the overtaking truck, or the small animal that ran onto the road that caused the swerve (if there was one)?
Is it coincidence that the Disco is probably the most common tug on the road, so naturally will be involved with more incidents that less common cars?
Does the Disco have soft suspension? Stand on your cars tow ball and look at the comparison, a normal car will sink on it's suspension quite notably, the Disco may sink a couple of inches, but still have plenty in reserve. So which handles better, the car with no suspension left or the 4x4 that's built for heavy loads?
Just a few things for the detractors to think about.
Besides, it this is going to degrade into a 4x4 thing, it needs moving to the tow car section, and if, while its being moved, it accidentally gets deleted, I won't shed a tear.
My Current employer runs around 75 car transporters and the LR Discover pre this model is one of the few that gives us real issues in securing to the load bed.
The majority of cars and vans are helds down with webbing straps but with the Disco's because of the rear suspension travel we use both straps and chains. The problem is probably made worse by the low psi figures given to help give a car like ride which the disco certaily has.
MH
The majority of cars and vans are helds down with webbing straps but with the Disco's because of the rear suspension travel we use both straps and chains. The problem is probably made worse by the low psi figures given to help give a car like ride which the disco certaily has.
MH
As this thread has changed into 4x4 it is now closed. Please post any further messages in the towcars section.
Not sure where the Inherent high nose weight is comiming from,
I have a Vectra Estate towing a Bailey Ranger Series 5,Baileys advise noseweights throughout there entire range to be betwen 50 and a 100k .
Within my front locker , I have one 15kg bottle of gas, Two green empty water containers, one pink one green bottle for the loo,and varios other plastic parts.
I have use two methods to check my nose weight75k Max tow ball allowance, one scales and wooden pole, and a nose weight guage that I have purchased.
To measure correct noseweight both car and van must be on level ground, if your drive is on a slope I measured mine on one of cc sites that was completly level.
With the parts mentioned above within the front locker I get 73 k.
When towing I increase the rear tyre pressures on the car from 32 psi to 38 psi, the fronts remaining at 32 psi.
On my last very recent trip to Scotland on the A1 near Leeds suddenly encounterd the worse weather ever, like having two hose pipes full jets suddenly hitting the windscreen, had the wipers on full speed rear fogs on , this happened on a down hill gradient that joined two other lanes making 4 lanes in all, the spray was horrifice the heavy goods passing as if on a normal dry run spray everywhere, the rain was so heavy you could not see the lanes clearly, having used this strech of road before i knew that the two outside lanes where the A1 managed to tuck in behind a lorry in the correct lane.
During all of this the car and van behaved as normal no signs thank God of any Aqwa plaining on the very tricky wet surface, this was all happening when the road started to climb a slight uphill gradient with the water every where.
Within the caravan I always place all the heavy stuff over the axles nothing goes behind the axle.
I am not sure in my mind what could have happened if i had loaded the van with heavy items to the rear of the axles, to compensate getting the front nose weigh down.
To ensure nothing moves forward, i have made bar covered in the pipe lagging mateial across the internal width of the van.
Eventally arrived at thirsk race course overnight stop,The front and back of the van was covered in brown oily water, It took me nearly two hrs of hand washing to get the van back to its gleaming state
Royston
I have a Vectra Estate towing a Bailey Ranger Series 5,Baileys advise noseweights throughout there entire range to be betwen 50 and a 100k .
Within my front locker , I have one 15kg bottle of gas, Two green empty water containers, one pink one green bottle for the loo,and varios other plastic parts.
I have use two methods to check my nose weight75k Max tow ball allowance, one scales and wooden pole, and a nose weight guage that I have purchased.
To measure correct noseweight both car and van must be on level ground, if your drive is on a slope I measured mine on one of cc sites that was completly level.
With the parts mentioned above within the front locker I get 73 k.
When towing I increase the rear tyre pressures on the car from 32 psi to 38 psi, the fronts remaining at 32 psi.
On my last very recent trip to Scotland on the A1 near Leeds suddenly encounterd the worse weather ever, like having two hose pipes full jets suddenly hitting the windscreen, had the wipers on full speed rear fogs on , this happened on a down hill gradient that joined two other lanes making 4 lanes in all, the spray was horrifice the heavy goods passing as if on a normal dry run spray everywhere, the rain was so heavy you could not see the lanes clearly, having used this strech of road before i knew that the two outside lanes where the A1 managed to tuck in behind a lorry in the correct lane.
During all of this the car and van behaved as normal no signs thank God of any Aqwa plaining on the very tricky wet surface, this was all happening when the road started to climb a slight uphill gradient with the water every where.
Within the caravan I always place all the heavy stuff over the axles nothing goes behind the axle.
I am not sure in my mind what could have happened if i had loaded the van with heavy items to the rear of the axles, to compensate getting the front nose weigh down.
To ensure nothing moves forward, i have made bar covered in the pipe lagging mateial across the internal width of the van.
Eventally arrived at thirsk race course overnight stop,The front and back of the van was covered in brown oily water, It took me nearly two hrs of hand washing to get the van back to its gleaming state
Royston
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