A dirty caravan hides a multitude of sins.

[ProfJohnL]

I started to compose this answer Tuesday evening, but was called away, so there have been several new posts to consider

In general:-
I think we all know that an MOT can only represent what the examiner saw at the time, and it is perfectly possible for things to break on the way back from the test station and even some people deliberatly change things such as number plates, engine tuning - even exhausts etc. It an old argument and whilst those issues may apply to a few instances, for the vast majoroity of us the MOT is good indication of the general condition of a car.

There can be little doubt that the MOT has generally ensured that cars with significant deterioation issues are taken off the road, unlike in other countries where you an see some vehicles that you know couldn't pass our MOT, and yet they are still see them being used.

I'm old enough to remember when the first Japanese cars started to arrive in the UK. Datsun, Honda and Toyota all came with good specifications and good mechanics but after only a few years paint was breaking down and significant rust issues were apparent. If it wern't for the MOT we might actually still see some of these early models on the roads today. These body work issues were certainly taken seriously, and now it is not uncommon to find many 10 year old cars with virtually no body work rust.

So despite the desparaging remarks about the validity of MOT's beyond the test date, I am personally pleased it is in exsitsnce as it has probaly prevented some very dangerous vehicles from being used.

The argument about how an MOT for trailers could be administered has been discussed at legth before on the forum, so I'm not about to revisit the details except to say that any formal MOT operated by VOSA would look at a caravan only as a trailer and as a consequence they only concern them selves with the road runing gear and not at the pay load or habitation area of the caravan.

I do believe that a regular formal check on the habitation side of caravans is a good idea. Especially when you consider that unlike a domestic property, the caravan is subject to some quite starting conditions through towing and storage for long tracts of time. These conditions are very aggresive towards appliances and instalations. Unfortunately we know from various posts on this forum that a "caravan service" seems to mean differnt things to differnt owners and dealers - some services' look at the conditions and function of appliances, others more or less simply confirm the appliances are present with chceking their function or safety. Consequently the defintion of a service needs to be better defined, to include condition and safety checks.

Such information would be very valuable to insurance companies, after all its they who often end up covering the costs of any incident, so any way they can have increased confidence in the property they are insuring, could help to keep insureance cost down. I can foresee a system where an certificate of insurance is only issued when a satisfactory condition report is issued.

Site owner would only then need to see the certificate of insurance to know the caravan they are about to let pitch is least likely to pose a danger.

Someone seems to think that site owners will be 'policing' the system and will need paying for it, I can't see that, all the site owner has to do is to see evidence of the certificate. Its up to the site owner if they want to allow an uncertified caravan on to their site or not, but they would need to have a good reason for their decision if an incident occurred.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

There can be little doubt that the MOT has generally ensured that cars with significant deterioation issues are taken off the road, unlike in other countries where you an see some vehicles that you know couldn't pass our MOT, and yet they are still see them being used.

So despite the desparaging remarks about the validity of MOT's beyond the test date, I am personally pleased it is in exsitsnce as it has probaly prevented some very dangerous vehicles from being used.

Well would you believe it

There I was, just about to make my post when I noticed it was almost word perfect with The Proffs

(Hides nose icon thingy).

The only issue I have with his long excellent missive is that it has definitely "prevented some very dangerous vehicles from being used".

 

[Surfer]

I do believe that a regular formal check on the habitation side of caravans is a good idea. Especially when you consider that unlike a domestic property, the caravan is subject to some quite starting conditions through towing and storage for long tracts of time. These conditions are very aggresive towards appliances and instalations. Unfortunately we know from various posts on this forum that a "caravan service" seems to mean differnt things to differnt owners and dealers - some services' look at the conditions and function of appliances, others more or less simply confirm the appliances are present with chceking their function or safety. Consequently the defintion of a service needs to be better defined, to include condition and safety checks.
Such information would be very valuable to insurance companies, after all its they who often end up covering the costs of any incident, so any way they can have increased confidence in the property they are insuring, could help to keep insureance cost down. I can foresee a system where an certificate of insurance is only issued when a satisfactory condition report is issued.
Site owner would only then need to see the certificate of insurance to know the caravan they are about to let pitch is least likely to pose a danger.
Someone seems to think that site owners will be 'policing' the system and will need paying for it, I can't see that, all the site owner has to do is to see evidence of the certificate. Its up to the site owner if they want to allow an uncertified caravan on to their site or not, but they would need to have a good reason for their decision if an incident occurred.

John the above has to be one of your tongue in cheek humourous posts as surely it cannot be serious. Either that or you never gave it much forethought which is unusual for you. The site is owner is a private individual and there is no ways in the world any government or authority is going to give a site owner the status of a "government official" to check on caravans.
Insurance is not compulsory on caravans yet, probably because many thousands of caravans are used as statics on seasonal sites. Are you going to drag your caravan off a site or get a mobile engineer in for an inspection just to please an insurance company although you don't have insurance on the caravan. After all if it is static, why would most people need insurance? If this were to happen and customers ended up being hassled, site owners would lose a lot of custom.
As for a check on the habitation side, is a normal residence subject to a habitation check every year? The inside of your caravan is your domain so why get a habitation check if everything is working okay? Seems a pointless waste of money. We only have the running gear services as the dealer rips you off on checks inside. Once every three years we get the gas heating serviced and that is more than enough.
If the caravan cannot stand the rattles and bumps it gets, then the manufacturer deserves to go out of business. I don't have any issue with MOTs on cars.

 

[kelvin3]

The thread as definitely moved away from snobbery and my congratulation on a job well done!

I am relatively new to caravanning and on my few week ends away I have seen and come across snobbery in the extreme.

Like: I pull alongside a new twin axle with the newish 4x4 along side with my 52 vec and 97 abbey. Me I’ll talk to anyone and struck up a conversation with the guy while setting up. I’d said it was my 2nd trip out and that I’m still learning. Just bought the van then he said – yes a few months back I said and then came the killer shot:

YOU DON’T GET A LOT FOR UNDER 3 GRAND DO YOU THESE DAYS!

Need more be said, needless to say I didn’t ask him round to share my assorted cheeses and a nice bottle of Merlot. But he was tucking in to his beans on toast with gusto! Mind you he must have had a good laugh at me putting up the awning for the first time. The 2nd time the awning goes up is this weekend and if you want a good laugh come to Mortley near Worcester If your there don’t laugh too much come and help I’ve bought some scrumpy and a couple of bottles of Valpasella so you will not go unrewarded, bring your own cheese.

 

[Parksy]

This owner of a twin axle gin palace was crass in the extreme to dismiss your caravan in that way Kelvin, good luck with the awning wrestling this weekend.
I've got no issue with caravans that need a wash, caravans containing families or older caravans, mine is often a bit grubby but it's safe to use and to tow and I have it serviced every year. If we remind ourselves of what was written in the original post:

The caravan had several large dents including one in the front of the roof that looked as if a tree had fallen on it! It seemed to be held together with gaffer tape ( I kid ye not!) , the electrical hook up looked a bit DIY and the whole thing was leaning to one side.

If the caravan was leaning to one side because of uneven ground it can't be helped but it's a different matter altogether if the caravan had been listing when it was being towed along roads and perhaps motorways. It would indicate to me that the owner of such a caravan cared little for his own safety or the safety of others because if a caravan is leaning to one side to a noticeable extent when being towed then there is clearly something wrong.
The caravan in question obviously was not a seasonal caravan which never moves although it's interesting to read about the fire involving two seasonal caravans, only one of which was insured, in a separate topic on this forum. Caravan insurance isn't compulsory but it helps matters when caravans involved in such incidents are insured.
If it's being towed along held together with gaffa tape some of those trying to defend it in this thread would be the first to complain if a skylight which was held on by tape came loose and hit their car or caravan following behind. I wonder how the owner of a neighbouring caravan would feel if the d-i-y electrics on what looked like a neglected caravan caused a fire which damaged or destroyed their own caravan or worse still injured them or anyone else?
Site owners are well within their rights to turn away any unit that they see fit and many of them excersise this right by stipulating what make of caravan can and can't use their sites. It would be an easy matter for them to demand proof of regular maintenance which it would be up to the caravanner to provide if site owners wanted to see it as a condition of entry.

 

[susanswift]

What a chuckle i`ve had seeing this thread. I`m not a snob, by a long chalk of the imagination, i seem to have the opposite problem. That sounds bad. What I mean is (trying to explain) I`ve ordered a new car and have bought my caravan which is a year old . Why new you say, well since i was young, i purchased new cars every 3-4 years. I dont drink, i dont smoke and always look after them. When i sell my 2nd hand vehicle, they`re already reserved because my mileage is so low.

I dont buy new to be flash, i buy new because i have to be one of the most unluckiest people alive and when i bought 2nd hand my car would spend weeks in garages. I like a warrenty and I dont like unexpected bills.

My first car spent 5 months in a garage...off and on, electrical fault. My 2nd car used to go in for weeks at a time carb intermittent fault. My 3rd car i crashed (my fault ) took weeks to get parts. So since then i have new cars, if they go in, i get a courtsey car. I pay more admittedly but i have piece of mind.

So my problem is. I want people to talk to me on sites, i dont want to be a snob even if i`ve colour cordinated my car and van...lol. And the reason for the newer van, years ago i bought a 2nd hand van.4 year old, from a dealer. Fully serviced. My mate borrowed it and the wheel come off and caused an accident, nothing worse than seeing your wheel over take you on the motorway, crossing the central reservation. I hadnt even been out in the van..

I never bought another caravan until a month ago when i bit the bullet. So if you see me, please talk to me, i`ll be the one sat on a deck chair with a lolly and chocs while OH puts up the awning...

 

[kelvin3]

Actually the vans in good nick so is the car. As soon as I bought it. It went round to my local garage for a mechanical service and check over (the owner is a keen caravan person and I trust his abilities). I also checked the electrics with my little meter and to be honest fitted a mover because me and her had already had arguments when I reversed the thingJ

Parksy I understand what you are saying but we can be over protective were H & S is concerned and stats do not back up that there was a severe problem in the first place, living in a nanny state don’t help.

And as I intimated in a previous post at what point does it become cosmetic and snobbery (sitting in a deck chair with a lolly and chocs must be boarding on it ROFL).

To me it’s not what you’ve got that’s snobbery but how you use or perceive it with regards to your surroundings.

 

[kopite]

hi all
I`ve only been vanning for 18 months so am very new to it so i may not have as much experiance as most of you and only been on 11 sites but can someone explain their experiance of snobbery as i`m amased this goes on.

 

[LMH]

Someone said previously there is snobbery in all walks of life, true. But it has to be said, there's some really nice genuine people on campsites but there seems to be a heck of a lot of snobs on sites these days.

In the paragraph Parksy quoted, it does sound like the caravan was a bit of an unsafe wreck though.

Lisa

 

[LMH]

We started off with a 16 year old van and on our second outing, pitched next to an older couple. My husband and I both said 'morning', 'evening' whatever and the old bird and old bloke looked the other way. They actually asked for another pitch nearer a newer van (which the campsite owner agreed to).

It's not a nice feeling to hear that.

Lisa

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

hi all
I`ve only been vanning for 18 months so am very new to it so i may not have as much experiance as most of you and only been on 11 sites but can someone explain their experiance of snobbery as i`m amased this goes on.

If you've never experienced snobbery after 11 sites Koppy it shows that there isn't a lot of it going on so I wouldn't worry about it. I think what some are getting confused about is those who don't want to speak to anyone, not so much as a "good morning," and there are plenty of those on sites and they don't all own posh new vans. Caravanning is no different to any other pastime or life in general for that matter. There are Mr & Mrs Meldrews in all walks of life.
The snobbery comments are getting away from the original post and just because lorraine posted her observations of what could be called a wreck of a van doesn't make her, or others who agree, snobs. They are just concerned about safety of others as well as herself including caravans pitched near it.
As Surfer posted, it's not illegal not to have insurance, which they probably didn't have anyway, but it wouldn't be any good moaning if anyone lost their van because of this owners negligence.

 

[kelvin3]

If this set up that was seen by lorraine was in the Evsham area then I too actually saw it (fathers day) We sat and watched the amount of stuff that spewed out of the van door. The site manager and a couple of others helped them set up because they had not got a clue and that’s coming from relative newbes (me and she).

We have all got to start somewhere and learn. What you’ve got don’t make you a snob it is how you use it and perceive it that makes you the snob. Making assumptions on the balance of probability does not make the assumption correct. And I disagree that it has nothing to do with snobbery.

 

[Parksy]

I don't agree that expressing concern about a caravan which did not appear to be roadworthy is snobbery Kelvin.
We've all got to start somewhere that's true but we owe it to ourselves and other road users to ensure that any vehicle that we use, including a caravan, is in a safe and roadworthy condition. This has got nothing to do with snobbery or even Health & Safety, it's the law and ignorance is no defence.
If you have access to the statistics on accidents involving caravans please quote the figures which indicate that there is not a severe problem which would substantiate your statement.
How often do we hear traffic reports about overturned caravans, caravan incidents on motorways etc? Almost every week during the summer months although the actual causes are unclear.
With the high number of first time caravanners during the economic squeeze there are a large number of people prepared to offload caravans fit only for the scrapheap which these newbies have paid good money for because they didn't know any better.
On the balance of probabilities a knocked about caravan festooned with gaffa tape and leaning to one side is more likely to be involved in a road traffic incident than the same make and model of caravan and of equal age but with an owner who maintains it and has taken the trouble to have a walk round after he's hitched up to make sure that his caravan is not leaning to one side with bits of it taped together before he takes to the roads.

 

[ProfJohnL]

John the above has to be one of your tongue in cheek humorous posts as surely it cannot be serious. Either that or you never gave it much forethought which is unusual for you. The site is owner is a private individual and there is no ways in the world any government or authority is going to give a site owner the status of a "government official" to check on caravans.

I'm sorry if my post gave you that impression, In fact i was trying to point out that site owners for their own business purposes may want to see the certificate. I made no mention of them doing it on behalf of the authorities. A site owner has the ultimate right to choose who or what they allow onto their sites (subject to their decision not being based on any matter of unequal opportunity)

Insurance is not compulsory on caravans yet, probably because many thousands of caravans are used as statics on seasonal sites. Are you going to drag your caravan off a site or get a mobile engineer in for an inspection just to please an insurance company although you don't have insurance on the caravan. After all if it is static, why would most people need insurance? If this were to happen and customers ended up being hassled, site owners would lose a lot of custom.

You are quite correct, caravan insurance is not compulsory - yet. which is why I added my last line. However if the caravan site owners do start to take their business responsibilities seriously then it is quite possible they will insist on insurance being in place before they allow a caravan onto their sites.

As for static caravans - they are not designed to be towed, thus they are not subject to the same stresses that a tourer sees. Consequently an annual check might be considered over kill. However I understand that in Germany all domestic residences are required to have annual check on a range of items (inc gas and electric), and i can foresee a similar requirement being adopted here. It is a requirement for rented property so why should home owners not want to be as well protected?

As for a check on the habitation side, is a normal residence subject to a habitation check every year? The inside of your caravan is your domain so why get a habitation check if everything is working okay? Seems a pointless waste of money. We only have the running gear services as the dealer rips you off on checks inside. Once every three years we get the gas heating serviced and that is more than enough.

The point with touring caravans is that although a system may seem to be working correctly, due to the stresses and strains of towing - which will be even greater with the deterioration of our roads - gas joints can and will be 'worked' this may well weaken them. There was a recent post about about a gas joint that had fractured with an escape of gas probably due to a combinations of over tightening and vibration. and I have seen plenty of evidence of fatigue fractures in metallic components in caravans. Equally I have seen many examples of corrosion that seriously weakens gas carrying components. Consequently I have to support that appliance manufactures recommendation for annual safety checks on gas systems.

If the caravan cannot stand the rattles and bumps it gets, then the manufacturer deserves to go out of business. I don't have any issue with MOTs on cars.

I quite agree that caravans could and should be far more robust that they generally seem to be. but its not just physical motion that damages components, the issue of corrosion which is exacerbated in caravans because of their usage and storage patterns and conditions, and also due to long periods of inactivity, some mechanical components can become difficult to use, or insects can find some nooks and crannies very appealing .

 

[lorrainejoyce]

hi everyone, I am amazed at the responses my original piece has provoked. Some to be honest have just latched onto the 'snobbery' comment which I only inserted to make it clear that I have no issue with older vans,a bit of dirt ( just ask my husband when I last got the hoover out indoors!) or their occupants, that is another whole barrel of worms.Just as I am friendly and sociable at home but not all my neighbours reciprocate, I am the same on site. A couple arrived at Barnard castle, with their tent and all their gear in their car in the pouring rain and sat there as their could do nothing. We invited them into our awning for a cup of tea and I am glad we did as they had driven down from Perthshire and were moving on the next day, on their way to Dover and then France. Meetings like this enrich our lives and although we probably won't ever bump into them again we spent a pleasant 10 minutes chatting about where we had been and where we would like to go. I have encountered people who don't smile back, give you the once over, watch you struggling in a force 9 gale trying to put up an awning, a man in a brand new buccaneer with a land rover 4 who built a fence round his pitch, along with people who have offered help and advice, stop to chat and the water point/chemical toilet emptying place and I know who I would rather be near. Please talk to us on site, just because our caravan was a new Elddis Oddyssey 550 last year and our Land Rover only 3 years old and still a show room shiney) they were bought because we want to retire early and they will have to last us into our dotage! We will be the unit flying the Curtis coat of arms on a blue and white flag ( a joke I might add!) come and say hello if you spot us, We might offer you a cup of tea or something stronger if the sun is over the yardarm.

 

[LMH]

I haven't 'latched on' to your snobbery remark because I've said it before and I'll say it again, there ARE some snobs on site and I bet some are even members on here.

There are even some people who sit in their van and write down the model and make of towing vehicle and model and make of caravan and then look up the data on both to see if they are a suitable match. (As admitted by a reader in his letter to a caravan magazine, the letter was published in the mag a few years ago). How sad is that?

Lisa

 

[kopite]

I dont disbelive any of your story`s just havn`t witnessed it myself but if all these are true we could have so much fun.I hate contfrontation and will avoid it like the plauge but a good wind up is right up my street,so if i come across these snobs i will tell all on here.

 

[Parksy]

I have to admit that scruffy caravans notwithstanding the 'snobbery' angle certainly made everybody sit up and take notice ( or take sides!)
I'd love to read about more 'snob' stories so that I, along with one or two others, could type in our Twopenny Ha'porth worth of moral outrage.
Throw in some dogz 'n' kidz stories and before you know it we'll have a good old discussion going.

 

[Surfer]

Need more be said, needless to say I didn’t ask him round to share my assorted cheeses and a nice bottle of Merlot. But he was tucking in to his beans on toast with gusto! Mind you he must have had a good laugh at me putting up the awning for the first time. The 2nd time the awning goes up is this weekend and if you want a good laugh come to Mortley near Worcester If your there don’t laugh too much come and help I’ve bought some scrumpy and a couple of bottles of Valpasella so you will not go unrewarded, bring your own cheese.

Do you mean Hopehouse Lane in Martley? We live about 2 miles away if that is the place. Try the Admiral Rodney up the road. Des is very friendly and knows us and others as caravanners. Also serves an excellent meal. We will probably be ther on Saturday. Otherwise try the Fox Inn about 3 miles towards Hallow. They don't serve meals. Is there any charge for the entertainment part watching the awning going up? LoL!

 

[kelvin3]

I suppose It’s all down to how you see caravanning

Cannot complain about dogs – although we haven’t one, we have never had or seen a problem

Cannot complain about kids – got some but there in their mid twenties but we do take the grandson (5) out with us sometimes. I have got a complaint about them in that they want to be with us – TOO MUCH (sometimes LOL). This weekend started off being me and she, then the youngest and his partner said “we will come and stay Saturday Night” then the eldest found out and he and his partner and the grandson are coming down for a ride they will be there in time for breakfast, happy days.

Me and she love to hear the kids laughing as they play and have no problems with them running across our pitch as long as they do not hurt themselves on the wires and sticky out thingy’s. But others do and I respect that – you know the ones, they build a fence around with gnomes, lights, wind breaks, signs that say things etc.

Over to you Parksy

 

[kelvin3]

Yes Surfer

Looks like the awnings going up tonight because of the forecast for tomorrow. Probably be there between 5 and 6 dependant upon the M5. Show starts at 6, my wife will be the one sitting with a lolly and some chocs and selling raffle tickets, I’ll be the one cursing and drinking cider to relax

 

[Parksy]

I suppose It’s all down to how you see caravanning............

...........Me and she love to hear the kids laughing as they play and have no problems with them running across our pitch as long as they do not hurt themselves on the wires and sticky out thingy’s. But others do and I respect that – you know the ones, they build a fence around with gnomes, lights, wind breaks, signs that say things etc.

Over to you Parksy

My comment about the moral outrage was tongue in cheek Kelvin.
I also like to see kids playing and enjoying themselves and the only problem that I have regarding dogs is not about the dogs per se but the small minority of dog owners who ignore the rules that almost every other caravanning dog owner respects.
Have a great weekend at Martley and get the older kids to help with the awning.

 

[kelvin3]

Although I can be serious (sometimes), my wife says I’m oblivious to insults, she tries quite often J One thing I will admit to is being a wind up merchant and tease, somewhat of a mickey taker and revel in the joys of good sarcasm. Did I say one thing?

To continue the list

1. Gnomes
2. Lights
3. wind breaks
4. signs that say things
5. wind mills
6. nodding birds

 

[thursdays child]

Appearances can sometimes be deceptive you know.We have on more than one occassion turned up at a CL/CS and there have been folks already onsite.We always wave and greet every one.After a couple of days getting to know each other it turns out that they have been under the wrong impression about our financial status!!! "We thought hello these must be millionaires with that van and big car"was one conversation with a couple who had a brand new van and car!!! Himself is very dedicated to keeping his stuff looking tidy and this applies at home or away. We have to be very careful with our funds to be able to get out and about.Our van and car are 8 years old and most people we meet have much newer examples.Clean and tidy is a recognised measure people often use to make a judgement about strangers and it is only after getting to know each other that you can really have an insight into the charactor of others.
I am completely at a loss about why anyone would want to waste valuable time checking out the integrity of other peoples outfits as Lisa has brought to our attention!!!!! To what end I wonder? It would be sensible to equate uncared for is an indication of uninterested in safety but not neccassarily.There are some individuals who are only interested in a cheap hassle free holiday and are oblivious to the safety issues attached to owning a caravan or motorhome. I personally know of one motorhome owner who has the MOT done every year but the actual leisure side of the vehicle has never been serviced.It is a constant worry to me as he will mess about with the fire/cooker etc when they dont operate correctly.I do believe there is a case for the gas systems to be serviced yearly and certified safe by qualified engineers but I also think we need be careful that we dont price ourselves out of our pastime.We for one could not afford to pay any more than we do now.
My motto is dont look down on others because eventually you will be looked down upon too.Thats life and thats why some aspire to greatness.I would hate to think some one would make a decision about me based on how clean my house is because at times it is less than gleaming but I would be quite happy to help clean somebody elses if asked!!!
Thursdays Child

 

[kelvin3]

Come on isn’t anyone going to add to the list?

Here’s number 7

1. Gnomes
2. Lights
3. wind breaks
4. signs that say things
5. wind mills
6. nodding birds
7. white 6” fencing

As a side issue and it’s been asked before and for many years:

How much/many items of underware can a woman wear in 2 days?