A Tragic Lesson

[Damian]

I think that this topic has gone off at a tangent and has ended up with a load of waffle about who owns what company,,,,,,,,not that it makes the slightest difference to the original posting.

So,back to basics, a van owner had a claim refused as he had moved his van from a storage to another and failed to inform his insurers,,,,,own goal!!

Regardless of anything else it is quite clear that an insurer will refuse a claim if the actual circumstances are not what they agreed to , namely the move without informing them of the change.

Whilst the topic is listed as a Tragic event, it is not , it is a salutory warning to make sure you inform your insurers of any change of risk , such as changing storage sites.

 

[Jcloughie]

My insurance is due soon. It it via CAMC. As I remember, (but I will certainly check). There is a question on where is the van normally stored. And the choices of, home, Cassoa storage site or farm.

I just ticked farm,

I feel sure I was not asked for the location.

It might be that there are more questions if the Cassoa it ticked as that attracts a discount.

My farm option does not have a discount, but it very secure and much cheaper than Cassoa alternatives.

Still worth bearing in mind to keep the insurer informed, it’s too easy to overlook.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

My insurance is due soon. It it via CAMC. As I remember, (but I will certainly check). There is a question on where is the van normally stored. And the choices of, home, Cassoa storage site or farm.

I just ticked farm,

I feel sure I was not asked for the location.

It might be that there are more questions if the Cassoa it ticked as that attracts a discount.

My farm option does not have a discount, but it very secure and much cheaper than Cassoa alternatives.

Still worth bearing in mind to keep the insurer informed, it’s too easy to overlook.

John

Exactly.

I think we all know there can be a marked difference between the best and the worst storage sites, How you personally assess them will depend on what's important to you.

 

[Jcloughie]

The one I am on can only be accessed through the farm and passed the house. There are two compounds with 8 foot fences, 80 to 100 vans. CCTV and a very friendly and accommodating owner.

Despite this, two vans were stolen 2 years ago. They had done their research on Google Earth. They had to access over a rough field and a weak bridge over a ditch. They came about 120 miles to do this, but were apprehended quite quickly.

Its 15 miles away so a bit of a nuisance. CAMC don’t give me a discount. But some insurance companies won’t even entertain farm storage. I don’t think any consideration is given to how secure it might be.

John

 

[Damian]

But some insurance companies won’t even entertain farm storage. I don’t think any consideration is given to how secure it might be.

It is not surprising that insurers will not entertain farm storage as they, the farms, are prime targets for thieves to take heavy equipment, quad bikes, etc .
If they see a nice shiny caravan then it is easier to take that !!!

As for security, it does not matter how much there is, if they want it, they WILL have it.

 

[Beachball]

It is not surprising that insurers will not entertain farm storage as they, the farms, are prime targets for thieves to take heavy equipment, quad bikes, etc .
If they see a nice shiny caravan then it is easier to take that !!!

As for security, it does not matter how much there is, if they want it, they WILL have it.

I am in agreement with Damian does not matter how much security you have

 

[ProfJohnL]

One of the reasons that farms have become prime targets, is by their nature they tend to have quite high value kit on site, and there is a ready market for farm equipment abroad. Farmers' are becoming more security aware and taking steps to make thefts more difficult, but the fact there are usually relatively few people working on a farm and they don't have a lot of other people in close proximity means the thieves are less likely to be noticed whilst committing the crime.

The same issues affect farmers who have caravan storage. Even with quite advanced detection systems including CCTV, thefts are likely to occur becasue it is well known how poor the police response is to incidents affecting property loss, due to budgetary constraints . Even if you have commercial security patrols, the guards are told not to interfere to try and stop these thugs They would not bat an eyelid before injuring you, and for the same reason its not advised that that anyone other than the police try to directly stop such criminal activity because of the risk of injury and becasue the criminals would not think twice about lodging and assault charge against you.

CCTV is only going to be of any use if has high resolution capabilities and its properly monitored, It needs to be able to clearly show faces and vehicles.

The same points would often apply to storage sites like the Cassoa ones. As Damain has said if they want it they'll have it. Not infrequently caravans are stolen to order, and if its theft needs greater effort to get it then the thugs are even more likely to disregard the safety of anyone trying to stop them.

However there is little doubt that the thieves will go for the bounty with least risk, and consequently they are less likely to go for a caravan in a well maintained site with lights and other security measures.

The is very little regulation that controls caravan storage facilities. Cassoa would like you to believe all their accredited sites are better than the rest. If it were a requirement that all sites had to be rated by Cassoa, then that premise might be true. However there is no compulsion for a storage site to be rated by Cassoa, and there could be any number of reasons why some sites choose not to apply. Therefore it should not be assumed that unaccredited sites wouldn't reach the Cassoa benchmarks.

I have no doubt that some sites would fail to reach the Cassoa benchmarks, but by definition the rest would meet or possibly exceed them. Cassoa is just a convenience tool that sets a rating system for sites, and you have to ask yourselves are their raised charges worth it, when regardless of where you store your caravan it's your insurance policy that is used to cover it in the event of a loss.

Don't be bullied or tempted by policy discounts to use a Cassoa site. Its up to you to weigh the pros and cons and the financial or other risks.

I will state now in case anyone thinks I have an axe to grind on this subject. I have never used a Cassoa site and I have never had any dispute with Cassoa, It is just that I hate to see the paying public being duped into using a service becasue they have been denied a balanced view of the facts.

I have no problem if someone wants to use a Cassoa site provided they have had the chance to understand the real situation. It might be the most convenient site for you happens to be a Cassoa site.

The Cassoa service has a similar marketing approach to tyre bands, setting themselves up by suggesting a benefit which has little or no evidence of actually delivering a practical difference.

 

[Jcloughie]

The same points would often apply to storage sites like the Cassoa ones. As Damain has said if they want it they'll have it. Not infrequently caravans are stolen to order, and if its theft needs greater effort to get it then the thugs are even more likely to disregard the safety of anyone trying to stop them.

However there is little doubt that the thieves will go for the bounty with least risk, and consequently they are less likely to go for a caravan in a well maintained site with lights and other security measures.

I have no doubt that some sites would fail to reach the Cassoa benchmarks, but by definition the rest would meet or possibly exceed them. Cassoa is just a convenience tool that sets a rating system for sites, and you have to ask yourselves are their raised charges worth it, when regardless of where you store your caravan it's your insurance policy that is used to cover it in the event of a loss.

I would agree that thieves will have it if they really want it. But they will always go for the easiest option. So therefore, considering security is still important. It also will help prevent theft by the opportunist thief and damage from vandals.

In my case, the farm I am on may have similar standards to Cassoa. But I know that the owner insists that he will never advertise or promote. Getting a place is all by referral and even then he interviews candidates. This is part of his security. (But even that did not stop thieves trying from Surrey).

Small problem is, when it comes to insurance I have to tick the ‘farm’ box. Which could be anything. CAMC are OK with it, but many aren’t .

John

 

[Buckman]

I would agree that thieves will have it if they really want it. But they will always go for the easiest option. So therefore, considering security is still important. It also will help prevent theft by the opportunist thief and damage from vandals.

In my case, the farm I am on may have similar standards to Cassoa. But I know that the owner insists that he will never advertise or promote. Getting a place is all by referral and even then he interviews candidates. This is part of his security. (But even that did not stop thieves trying from Surrey).

Small problem is, when it comes to insurance I have to tick the ‘farm’ box. Which could be anything. CAMC are OK with it, but many aren’t .

John

How would thieves from Surrey have known about the storage site?

 

[Jcloughie]

How would thieves from Surrey have known about the storage site?

Thats a mystery. Also, they believe they stalked it via Google Earth, but when I look the view of the rear of the site, which was their approach, is not detailed enough. So it dose leave unanswered questions.

They were caught quickly, I think (but am not sure), that one of the vans had a tracker.

I also don’t know if there was damage done.

I will ask more questions when I get the chance (and if I remember).


John

 

[Thingy]

How would thieves from Surrey have known about the storage site?

By googling caravan storage in area X. Google search to find it, google maps to scope it, google maps again for the quickest way there and back.

 

[Jcloughie]

By googling caravan storage in area X. Google search to find it, google maps to scope it, google maps again for the quickest way there and back.

A couple of problems with that.

• Google does not find this site as it is not advertised or promoted. (I have tried it).
• Earth or maps do not show enough detail of the rear of the site. You can't even see the 8 foot fence.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

Small problem is, when it comes to insurance I have to tick the ‘farm’ box. Which could be anything. CAMC are OK with it, but many aren’t .

John

Here's a thought,

I wonder what the insurers definition of a farm is?

Technically a farmer who decides to utilise some of his land as a storage site might have had to seek planning approval for change of use, if the change of use has been approved , technically the storage site is not a farm.

What this does not cover is where a farmer has not declared the change of use.

 

[Jcloughie]

Here's a thought,

I wonder what the insurers definition of a farm is?

Technically a farmer who decides to utilise some of his land as a storage site might have had to seek planning approval for change of use, if the change of use has been approved , technically the storage site is not a farm.

What this does not cover is where a farmer has not declared the change of use.

In my case the question is academic. If its a farm or a non cassoa site its classed the same so far as I can see. Only Cassoa sites get the discount. However, my storage is £150 less than the Cassoa site and closer. I have wondered if the owner does have planning permission, He's been doing it forever, we have been using it for about 6 years now. I am not about to ask.

I have just arranged for my service on the 24th. The service engineer is happy to come to my house or to the storage. The storage have no problem.

I would rather bring it home. But I wondered how legal it might be. So I spoke to the police for their opinion. Result.

"It's a very gray area and might depend on the policeman on the day if I was stopped. Is it essential? is 15 miles too far?" "the decision is yours sir!"

I decided to get it done at the storage. So will have to hang around all day. Phone suduko will get a hammering.

John

 

[Beachball]

In my case the question is academic. If its a farm or a non cassoa site its classed the same so far as I can see. Only Cassoa sites get the discount. However, my storage is £150 less than the Cassoa site and closer. I have wondered if the owner does have planning permission, He's been doing it forever, we have been using it for about 6 years now. I am not about to ask.

I have just arranged for my service on the 24th. The service engineer is happy to come to my house or to the storage. The storage have no problem.

I would rather bring it home. But I wondered how legal it might be. So I spoke to the police for their opinion. Result.

"It's a very gray area and might depend on the policeman on the day if I was stopped. Is it essential? is 15 miles too far?" "the decision is yours sir!"

I decided to get it done at the storage. So will have to hang around all day. Phone suduko will get a hammering.

John

Our caravan having a service on the 29th but the caravan storage is only a couple miles away from where it goes so we are dropping it of

 

[Dustydog]

I go beyond the Prof. CASSOA rated storage is almost a reason to pay a fortune for storage. There are plenty of alternative sites who offer good security acceptable to most Insurers but I accept some want the magic letters CASSOA.
Yes it is the same scenario as Tyron Bands. Never had them. Not sure if insurers give a discount for Tyron Bands.?
Rewind to Damian’s points does anyone on here insure with AmTrust? Haven’t seen them around for a long time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

... But some insurance companies won’t even entertain farm storage. ...

In my case the question is academic. If its a farm or a non cassoa site its classed the same so far as I can see. ...

I'm not sure I do see your point. I have taken comments from two of your recent posts - Are you suggesting that some insurers will only accept Cassoa as a storage option? If that is the case, then the companies have moved the goal posts and are trying to force all storage sites to be Cassoa assessed. That would be anti competition and I an pretty sure illegal.

 

[Hutch]

The farm where I store our caravan was an arabale farm but also a chicken farm when I first went there about 12 years ago, and we went into a newly converted old barn, so under cover. No problems with either main clubs over the years.
4 years ago they stopped free range chicken farming and gravelled an area to take over 200 caravans and motorhomes. Built a big 6ft high bund around the area with big steel sliding gates. So fairly secure. And of course applied to the local council for change of use for that are of the land. . Meanwhile my caravan is nicely hidden away , with 5 others in some barns. With huge steel doors, and a 5 ton trailer in front of the doors.
I am very happy where we are.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Might I suggest that contributors refrain from adding too much detail about their particular storage arrangements. You would be quite surprised at how the little titbits of information might in themselves appear to insignificant but when stitched together can build quite a a much clearer picture.

And just a heads up, whilst google maps and earth are not necessarily very clear at high magnifications, I suggest you look at how much more detail the picture view mapping on Ipads can reveal.

 

[Hutch]

Might I suggest that contributors refrain from adding too much detail about their particular storage arrangements. You would be quite surprised at how the little titbits of information might in themselves appear to insignificant but when stitched together can build quite a a much clearer picture.

And just a heads up, whilst google maps and earth are not necessarily very clear at high magnifications, I suggest you look at how much more detail the picture view mapping on Ipads can reveal.

I fully agree there Prof, One of the reasons that helpt me choose our site was because you could not see the caravans from Google maps. And it never advertised. I only found out about it when I brought up the subject with the caravan dealer saying I could not buy it as I had nowhere to store it.

 

[Raywood]

Not sure what the ownership of CASSOA has to do with anything. What you are looking for is a safe and secure place to store your caravan and who owns CASSOA is irrelevant. In practice the site will be locally owned and is a member of CASSOA, so you will normally be dealing with a local business where you have the added security of knowing it is part of a trade organisation who require certain standards to be maintained.

 

[Dustydog]

Assuming the Trade Association regularly check the security arrangements as previously questioned.
My OP was merely to highlight the importance of disclosure to your Insurers of anything that may affect your contract of insurance.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....so you will normally be dealing with a local business where you have the added security of knowing it is part of a trade organisation who require certain standards to be maintained.

That is a point, but according to the Cassoa website,

"Accreditation is based on a mandatory survey which is required every 5 years to ensure that standards are being maintained."

In my view and experience such a long gap between accreditation verification is too long.

Sites that attain Cassoa accreditation do have an advantage as its clear that some insurance companies do promote the use of Cassoa sites by offering a discount on their policies. Sites also benefit from the stature of the accreditation which allows them to increase their income. So les scrupulous site owners might do just enough to collect the accreditation, then let things relax once its obtained.