Adria dart 2024 can I tow it

[Lutz]

If the caravans MTPLM is 1500kg, and 100kg is borne by the towing vehicle the caravans axle loading will be less than 1500kg, but its overall weight (i.e. its MTPLM) remains at 1500kg

Nothing wrong with that statement, but it would have been worth adding that using the figures quoted, the car will actually only be pulling 1400kg, so it could be towed by a car with a 1400kg towload limit (assuming the gross train weight is not exceeded).

 

[Hutch]

Nothing wrong with that statement, but it would have been worth adding that using the figures quoted, the car will actually only be pulling 1400kg, so it could be towed by a car with a 1400kg towload limit (assuming the gross train weight is not exceeded).

I disagree, the car will still be towing 1500 kg, it does not change because of a tow hitch load. The weight on the caravan axle does not change.
The towing weight does not change depending on where it is hitched to the car.

 

[Lutz]

I disagree, the car will still be towing 1500 kg, it does not change because of a tow hitch load. The weight on the caravan axle does not change.
The towing weight does not change depending on where it is hitched to the car.

Although the car is towing a caravan weighing 1500kg in total, the weight actually being towed is 1400kg. The difference of 100kg, i.e. the noseweight, is not being towed but carried by the car and counts towards its overall weight. Otherwise the 100kg would be counted twice, once contributing towards the overall weight of the car and again as part of the towed weight.
As you say, the weight on the caravan axle doesn’t change and that is the towed weight.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I disagree, the car will still be towing 1500 kg, it does not change because of a tow hitch load. The weight on the caravan axle does not change.
The towing weight does not change depending on where it is hitched to the car.

I know the concept may seem counterintuitive, but when you think about it and apply some basic school level physics, the whole weight of a coupled stationary caravan has to be supported by its road wheels and the load carried by the hitch. The sum of all the thrust on each of the supporting points equals the mass x acceleration due to gravity of the whole caravan.

The thrust on the road wheels does not include the thrust on the hitch coupling. The coupling thrust is shared by the tow vehicles axles not the trailers, so the towed weight is only the load on the trailers road wheels.

This doesn't change the caravans MTPLM, which is specifically the limit for the weight of the whole caravan, which must include the load on the road wheels and the load exerted by the A frame however it is supported ( e.g. the jockey wheel or coupling when uncoupled from the tow vehicle.

 

[Buckman]

Everyone is concerned about whether the OP could tow the trailer with a MTPLM of 1800kg if they only loaded 100kg into the trailer to keep it below the 1500kg mark. A regular poster has on numerous occasions mentioned that the MIRO is not a static figure and may be higher or lower than the figure supplied by the manufacturer therefore inadvertently taking them over the magic 1500kg.

Adding in basic necessities like battery etc will eat into that 100kg anyway and if they carry a lot of caravan stuff in the vehicle, they may exceed the maximum gross weight on the rear axle.

Lastly we then have the insurance aspect. In the unfortunate event of a mishap while towing, an insurance company will only look at the values supplied to them by the manufacturer of the car and caravan. In this case the MTPLM of the trailer will be well in excess of the maximum weight that the car could tow. The car insurance will probably only pay out third party and the insurance company could then claim that back off the driver. The insurers for the caravan on checking the figures may also decline any claim for damage.

 

[Lutz]

A regular poster has on numerous occasions mentioned that the MIRO is not a static figure and may be higher or lower than the figure supplied by the manufacturer therefore inadvertently taking them over the magic 1500kg.

I‘m sorry, but you are still getting it wrong. The MIRO is a static figure, but it doesn’t refer to the caravan in question. It is the weight of a caravan without any factory fitted options that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. As such it can differ from the actual weight of his particular caravan. Best to ignore MIRO altogether and put the caravan on a weighbridge. That’s the only way one can reliably and accurately establish the payload margin by subtracting the actual unladen weight from the MTPLM.

 

[Buckman]

I‘m sorry, but you are still getting it wrong. The MIRO is a static figure, but it doesn’t refer to the caravan in question. It is the weight of a caravan without any factory fitted options that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. As such it can differ from the actual weight of his particular caravan. Best to ignore MIRO altogether and put the caravan on a weighbridge. That’s the only way one can reliably and accurately establish the payload margin by subtracting the actual unladen weight from the MTPLM.

I have to disagree as in numerous posts you have pointed out that the MIRO is not static and can vary up or down, however the MIRO in this case is irrelevant when taking into consideration the insurance aspects.

 

[Lutz]

I have to disagree as in numerous posts you have pointed out that the MIRO is not static and can vary up or down, however the MIRO in this case is irrelevant when taking into consideration the insurance aspects.

I have always taken care to refer to actual weight, not MIRO or if I did mention MIRO that it applies only to the one caravan that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. As such MIRO is relatively meaningless to the owner as it can be nothing better than a rough guide.

 

[Sam Vimes]

At the risk of confusing matters even more.......

There is a difference between Mass and Weight. Mass is a physical property of an object whereas Weight is a force due to gravity. Here in Earth the value for Mass and Weight of an object are the same.

Your 1500kg caravan will only Weigh 250kg on the Moon but it's mass will still be 1500kg.

Why does this matter? If your caravan is weighed and is 1500kg then that's it's mass. Regardless of the number of wheels and the fact that it's hooked up to the towing vehicle it's mass will always be the same. Weight on each wheel will vary according to the number of wheels.

Your towing vehicle needs sufficient energy to pull and stop the Mass of the caravan.

There are no doubt other legal aspects re: weight of both. The best option when it may be a borderline question of suitability is to get the caravan weighed with it fully loaded. Not always possible if you don't currently own it.

As can be seen here confusion reigns over definitions.

 

[Buckman]

I have always taken care to refer to actual weight, not MIRO or if I did mention MIRO that it applies only to the one caravan that the manufacturer submitted for type approval. As such MIRO is relatively meaningless to the owner as it can be nothing better than a rough guide.

Then I do not understand why you even bothered to mention it? Again as pointed out it is irrelevant when taking insurance into account.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Wonder f you were one of the police motorcyclists who pulled me into a Highways Depot near Ringwood? In those days probably Dept of Transport. No infringements I’m pleased to say, despite giving car and caravan a free health check and weight check. 🤔

Quite possibly!
We did get a fair few drastically overweight cars and trailer/caravan rigs. It was really concerning to find that SO many drivers were totally unaware of any weight restrictions applicable to their cars, let alone what they were towing!,

 

[Mr Plodd]

At the risk of confusing matters even more.......

There is a difference between Mass and Weight. Mass is a physical property of an object whereas Weight is a force due to gravity. Here in Earth the value for Mass and Weight of an object are the same.

Your 1500kg caravan will only Weigh 250kg on the Moon but it's mass will still be 1500kg.

Why does this matter? If your caravan is weighed and is 1500kg then that's it's mass. Regardless of the number of wheels and the fact that it's hooked up to the towing vehicle it's mass will always be the same. Weight on each wheel will vary according to the number of wheels.

Your towing vehicle needs sufficient energy to pull and stop the Mass of the caravan.

There are no doubt other legal aspects re: weight of both. The best option when it may be a borderline question of suitability is to get the caravan weighed with it fully loaded. Not always possible if you don't currently own it.

As can be seen here confusion reigns over definitions.

That's why a caravan has a Maximum Technically Permitted Legal Mass not Weight.
For all practical every day purposes in respect of cars and caravans they are the same. Everyone understands what "weight" means, but not everyone understand mass in the same way.

 

[otherclive]

Quite possibly!
We did get a fair few drastically overweight cars and trailer/caravan rigs. It was really concerning to find that SO many drivers were totally unaware of any weight restrictions applicable to their cars, let alone what they were towing!,

Visually mine was a well balanced outfit. Saab 9000 towing 2 berth Elddis within speed limit. Guess it was luck of the draw. 😃

At least my spreadsheets of weights was accurate.

 

[ProfJohnL]

At the risk of confusing matters even more.......

There is a difference between Mass and Weight. Mass is a physical property of an object whereas Weight is a force due to gravity. Here in Earth the value for Mass and Weight of an object are the same.

Your 1500kg caravan will only Weigh 250kg on the Moon but it's mass will still be 1500kg.

Why does this matter? If your caravan is weighed and is 1500kg then that's it's mass. Regardless of the number of wheels and the fact that it's hooked up to the towing vehicle it's mass will always be the same. Weight on each wheel will vary according to the number of wheels.

Your towing vehicle needs sufficient energy to pull and stop the Mass of the caravan.

There are no doubt other legal aspects re: weight of both. The best option when it may be a borderline question of suitability is to get the caravan weighed with it fully loaded. Not always possible if you don't currently own it.

As can be seen here confusion reigns over definitions.

There is also the difference between weight/mass and weight/mass limits, MTPLM is a limit and not a weight. No one (not even Police officers) can simply look at a data plate and use any of the weight limits shown there on, as the only evidence off an overload offence.

 

[Buckman]

There is also the difference between weight/mass and weight/mass limits, MTPLM is a limit and not a weight. No one (not even Police officers) can simply look at a data plate and use any of the weight limits shown there on, as the only evidence off an overload offence.

That may or may not be correct, but the insurance company for vehicle or caravan would only look at the figures supplied by the manufacturer to decide whether to pay out or not.

 

[Hutch]

Getting back to Peter and the Pug, question, forget the 100 kg payload,
Would his car which has a tow limit of 1500 kg tow a caravan that weighs at say 1400 kg BUT, has a MTPLM of 1600 kg. If he keeps the weight of the caravan at 1400 kg.

 

[Buckman]

Getting back to Peter and the Pug, question, forget the 100 kg payload,
Would his car which has a tow limit of 1500 kg tow a caravan that weighs at say 1400 kg BUT, has a MTPLM of 1600 kg. If he keeps the weight of the caravan at 1400 kg.

Again the insurance company may not be willing to pay out as they will obtain specifications from the manufacturers.

 

[Hutch]

Again the insurance company may not be willing to pay out as they will obtain specifications from the manufacturers.

But is it legal to tow it with his car.

 

[Buckman]

But is it legal to tow it with his car.

Good question. If the insurance is invalidated due to exceeding the specifications then surely it would be illegal as then they are towing without insurance?

 

[Tobes]

Good question. If the insurance is invalidated due to exceeding the specifications then surely it would be illegal as then they are towing without insurance?

And specifically what specification has been exceeded? Not the MTPLM. Not the Gross train weight. Not the tow bar vertical load.

 

[Buckman]

And specifically what specification has been exceeded? Not the MTPLM. Not the Gross train weight. Not the tow bar vertical load.

In case you missed it according to the insurance company the specifications will have been exceeded as the insurance company will look at the specifications supplied by the manufacturers as they have no interest whether the trailer had no payload or whether it only had a partial payload. So double whammy as no insurance payout plus fine and points on your licence.

 

[Tobes]

In case you missed it according to the insurance company the specifications will have been exceeded as the insurance company will look at the specifications supplied by the manufacturers as they have no interest whether the trailer had no payload or whether it only had a partial payload. So double whammy as no insurance payout plus fine and points on your licence.

I'll ask again. What specification is being exceeded? There are three to choose from; MTPLM, tow-bar vertical load, and Gross train weight. Please help the rest of us understand which of these limits is being exceeded making the outfit illegal? Points get awarded for actually breaking a law; that is when evidence is recorded (in this case of weight contravention) that demonstrates an aspect of your outfit is not within the specified limit. Insurance will be invalid when the terms of the policy are broken. Towing outside of a legal limit would absolutely be grounds for this. So - lets look again at exactly what limit is broken?

 

[otherclive]

In case you missed it according to the insurance company the specifications will have been exceeded as the insurance company will look at the specifications supplied by the manufacturers as they have no interest whether the trailer had no payload or whether it only had a partial payload. So double whammy as no insurance payout plus fine and points on your licence.

It’s just hypothetical as no insurance company have been involved with this thread, and no real world examples of such actions. Talk about circular arguments without substance.

 

[Lutz]

Good question. If the insurance is invalidated due to exceeding the specifications then surely it would be illegal as then they are towing without insurance?

But no-one has made any indication that a specification is exceeded

 

[ProfJohnL]

In case you missed it according to the insurance company the specifications will have been exceeded as the insurance company will look at the specifications supplied by the manufacturers as they have no interest whether the trailer had no payload or whether it only had a partial payload. So double whammy as no insurance payout plus fine and points on your licence.

Let me be clear, the methodology of only choosing a trailer whoes MTPLM is within the tow vehicles maximum towed mass limit (as suggested above) is absolutely fine, but it is NOT the way the law in the UK is written or enacted.

The specifications for a vehicle include a maximum towed mass (weight) It does not specify a maximum MTPLM for the trailer thus regardless of what the MTPLM is, it cannot be used as proven evidence of exceeding the towed mass specification.

A measured value of the load on the coupled trailers road axles would be needed to provide any evidence of exceeding the tow vehicles towed mass limit.

Car insurers can set tighter limits on a proposer provided those deviations from the RTA standards are agreed before the policy is agreed.

The insurer cannot retrospectively apply tighter limits to a policy retrospectively.