Ain't life grand

[Lord Braykewynde]

I would have been very interested in your opinion as to exactly how our economy would benefit?I would be interested in you trying to disprove what i have said regarding how our economy would be heavily hit and the massive loss of jobs that would follow and the 50 to 60% increase in benefit claims that would follow for possible half to a full decade.
In fact you too might actually be a big loser financially if we did leave the EU. and yes i know you have retired but hard times mean hard measures

I'm sorry but I'm not going to get into the economy, job losses etc. because I simply do not know and neither do you.
All I will say is I read a lot about this subject either in the news or online. These are politicians, economists, political commentators, academics etc. and I can assure you that most say that we would thrive outside of the EU and some legal advisers to the government say we could leave the EU at no cost. An alternative is to stay in the EU and ignore any ECHR that over rule our courts and there's nothing they can do about it according to some English judges.
One thing to be sure of is if we did leave no EU country would ignore trading with a country whose population is 60 million plus. What the Europhiles like to say when scaremongering is that we will be ignored by Europe which is total lies.
What I'm 100% certain of is that these people are far more cleverer than either you or I and I know who I'd rather believe and listen to and it isn't Clegg, Cable or Huhne

 

[Lutz]

Typical Liberal, still not answered the parts I highlighted

OK I'll ask again. In your mind what is the cut off point? When is Europe full? When do we pull up the drawbridge? When do we say enough is enough?
I accept that the Tunisians, Somalis, Libyans and Syrians aren't from E.U. countries but neither are "the vast majority involved in Germany are not from EU countries at all, but from countries like Albania, Russia, Serbia or further afield from various south American countries" that you quoted.
When they get here and claim asylum they will either vanish or cost the country billions by appealing against their human rights and once it gets to the ECHR they almost always win their case. Only a minority of those who get here actually get deported.
Even from here at home I can hear the sphincter muscles twitching of the Immigration Ministers of the Schengen countries. Panic measures are already setting in.
So once again I ask, how many more do we take in before you accept that Europe is full?
As I said before, living space is finite.

I feel you are mixing up a perceived problem within the EU and that of streams of people coming from outside our borders. Clearly, the latter is not acceptable and something needs to be done to prevent that. In that respect I wouldn't say Europe is full, but everything should be done to discourage any more coming obviously as economic refugees.
I wonder if there is any evidence that asylum seekers proportionately commit any more crimes than other foreigners who have immigrated into Europe on a regular basis and have already lived here for years or those who come to Europe as visitors with no intent of staying permanently. The media that you refer to like to use the asylum seekers as scapegoats. Being the weakest among us, they are easy prey and lend themselves to providing seemingly simple answers to complex problems.
I look after one asylum seeker living nearby. He comes from Burma (Myanmar), is obviously a political and not an economic refugee, would love to work (he has a university degree). I cannot imagine anyone less likely to commit a crime.
BTW, until now, Germany has been more restrictive in allowing migrants from eastern European EU countries from entering the country than the UK, so with the relaxation that comes into effect on the 1st May, there will probably be a shift of emphasis away from the UK and more towards Germany as their country of destination and some migration of these people from the UK to Germany is also to be expected.

 

[Dustydog]

It's noteworthy that neither the Tories nor Labour Governments binned the pound for the Euro. Why? That's a rhetorical question.

Why do European goods in the UK cost more than in most other European Countries?
Brish lamb is now one of the most expensive meats . Our butcher a year ago was paying £50 a lamb, toady it's £150. Apparently France and other EU countries like it
. We turned our backs on New Zealand who now send most of their lamb to the pacific rim countries.
I still want to know exactly what we do get from the EU? Not a lot as far as I can see or read about.

 

[JonnyG]

"What I'm 100% certain of is that these people are far more cleverer than either you or I and I know who I'd rather believe and listen to and it isn't Clegg, Cable or Huhne

"

I only wish, that was actually true. Arnt these people part of the same group that every government in modern history advise governments on economical Matters? So we have to assume that some have been advising wrongly? and being as you will find both view points within this group pro and con from these so called smarter people, are you not once more using those that agree with your own viewpoint as evidence of being right.
For once I am asking because i find it strange that in my entire adult life not one government has thought of pulling out of the EU!
So you can add Maggie Blair and Cameron to clegg cable and huhne. as dumb asses.and of course half of those so called smarter people too.So it seems they aint any smarter after all.
As for me, if anyone could really show the benefits of leaving economically, i'd be all for it, but LB just want to leave, and really dont care if we end up economically worse off than we already are!
How wise would that be...

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I still want to know exactly what we do get from the EU? Not a lot as far as I can see or read about.

If you find out DD please do let me know

Thank you in anticipation but I'm not building my hopes up

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

BTW, until now, Germany has been more restrictive in allowing migrants from eastern European EU countries from entering the country than the UK, so with the relaxation that comes into effect on the 1st May, there will probably be a shift of emphasis away from the UK and more towards Germany as their country of destination and some migration of these people from the UK to Germany is also to be expected.

Thank you for that Lutz.
Just to summarise I wasn't referring to asylum seekers as an increase in crime, I meant ALL immigration.
I would also like to highlight that the three people who are charged with murdering the elderly Italian couple are all Polish immigrants.
There are figures out which show the increase in crime by immigrants, both illegal and from the E.U. but unfortunately the only ones I can find are from 2008 which was leaked to the left wing Guardian and BBC who nit picked the positives but didn't mention the negatives. This was soon put right by the Association of Chief Police Officers who at the time were asking the then Labour government for more money to fight the increase in crime and to provide translators, especially those in rural areas where there is a high population of immigrants. If I find the latest police statistics I will post it.
It is honourable of you to look after the person you mentioned from Myanmar and well done. There are no doubt many others who are also genuine refugees and should be given succour but there’s also no doubt that the vast majority of them are economic refugees. Wherever in the world where there’s conflict there are those who leave and head for Europe claiming asylum but the laughable part is countries like Italy and France ignore them and move them on knowing their intentions are to get to the UK where the ECHR will make sure we grant them asylum.
Regarding your comment of ..
“Germany has been more restrictive in allowing migrants from eastern European EU countries from entering the country than the UK, so with the relaxation that comes into effect on the 1st May, there will probably be a shift of emphasis away from the UK and more towards Germany as their country of destination and some migration of these people from the UK to Germany is also to be expected”
I did mention this in an earlier post whereas the UK, Sweden and Eire had no restrictions. This, due to the last left wing government, is the cause of a lot of our ills. It doesn’t absolve the E.U. of blame though due to it’s laws of stopping us removing these people, even after they’ve served a prison sentence. Hopefully you will be correct and many will leave after May 1st but that doesn’t solve the asylum question of those now being moved on by the authorities and now passing through Italy and France to get here.
BTW, after having read through some of the posts again, I noticed you corrected me and yes, I meant the density of populations. I also meant the density of the population of England . It is in England where 84% of the UK population live as do the vast majority of immigrants.
You say the population density of Germany is 231 per square km, France 111, Italy 195 but it is a few more in England at 383.
Out of interest Scotland is 65 and Wales is 142.
I apologise that I was wrong saying that we were the highest but we come a close second to the Low Countries.

 

[JonnyG]

You say the population density of Germany is 231 per square km, France 111, Italy 195 but it is a few more in England at 383.
Out of interest Scotland is 65 and Wales is 142.
I apologise that I was wrong saying that we were the highest but we come a close second to the Low Countries."

I like that.. but if you are going to start quoting regional, England has a far far far lower density population if we withdraw "greater london" from the equation. non of us live there and you yourself live in a piratical paradise of a place Herefordshire. so when londerers themselves start complaining about density problems to do with EU immigration I will be listening.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

when londerers themselves start complaining about density problems to do with EU immigration I will be listening.

Pin back your lugholes then and go and see what the Met says about crime. Also the CPO of Kent. So you obviously haven't been listening

Another point is because we are an agricultural area we have far more immigrants per head of population regarding counties than metropolitan areas. Go to stores like Asda and Tesco on a Sunday when rarely you will hear English being spoken and that is by the till operators. Close your eyes and you could be in a foreign country. People here moan about it but Boston is even worse.
As a city we have a high immigrant population. Check out any park, play area, cemetery, waste land etc. and you will find them, drink cans strewn around lying about drunk. Where my daughter lives there's a small open area behind her garden with a wall they sit on while getting blotto. The only word of English they know is the eff word which is used all the time and because they are drunk they shout, they find it impossible to talk. I told my daughter what the answer is because the police aren't interested. She wont do it so I'm going to do it this afternoon. I'm going to smear dogs do do's all over the wall

That'll stop the ********s unless due to drink their nasal receptors are only working at half capacity. There will be one less of them anyway because he's just been sent down for money laundering, theft and counterfeiting.
Yes, I know what you're going to say in your politically correct way JG, there are British yobs lying about drunk, but this does beggar the question of why import more when we can breed our own.

 

[Lutz]

BTW, after having read through some of the posts again, I noticed you corrected me and yes, I meant the density of populations. I also meant the density of the population of England . It is in England where 84% of the UK population live as do the vast majority of immigrants.
You say the population density of Germany is 231 per square km, France 111, Italy 195 but it is a few more in England at 383.
Out of interest Scotland is 65 and Wales is 142.
I apologise that I was wrong saying that we were the highest but we come a close second to the Low Countries.

If you are going to break the UK population density down to England, Scotland and Wales, please allow me to do the same for Germany. The population density of the state of North Rhine Westphalia is 525 per square km and that is ignoring the obviously even more densely population city states of Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen.

 

[JonnyG]

I read your last post LB, and i thought i was reading a report from the 80s and 90s with regards to the growing cultural problem of teenagers here in the UK. Bare in mind a growing problem and not something you should aim at all UK teenagers/youths/young adults/drop outs.
Its a problem that clearly wasn't and isnt easily dealt with obviously,and we all wish it was.So now a small number of EU immigrants have caught our wonderful lowlife culture, and you use that as an excuse for your viewpoint with regards to your anti EU stance.
Well come off it, this isnt the EU fault is it, its something we have led the field in for the last two decades,poor, lacklust parenting from these shores, and certainly nothing to do with the EU.
Dont get me wrong, i am interested in hearing a sane argument for leaving the EU, that would leed us all to having a better quality of life, and at the forefront of this has to be economics and economical conditions that would clearly have to be better than they have been in the past.On this score you have absolutely nothing to offer, surely if one is advocating such a large change, one should offer more than just reports that could be aimed at our lowlifes too?
Nothing you have said gives any credence to this being something that is on offer,all you do is exaggerate small instances of immigrants taking on our some of our poor cultural situations, and using them to taint All immigrants, as if the problem would go away instantly once we remove them.If it did, then i would seriously listen
But in realty all that would change would be more and more reports of our own inept group of lowlifes headlining the papers once more just like they did prior to the Eu doors opening up a few years back.
But really this topic is going off line,it appears to be more of a ranting of all the things you dislike,rather than a way to a better life for us all.
Give me the way to a better life, not just rantings, full of negativities without proper solutions

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Gio you don't change

full of the politically correct bull with long winding sentences that wouldn't make sense to a lawyer

Now go and play lorries .... heh! heh! heh!
Now he's blaming the immigrants bad behaviour on watching bad behaviour of the indigenous population. Gio you're a gem and should be on TV .... as interference

I'm not going to even bother about replying to the rest of your diatribe

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

BTW, after having read through some of the posts again, I noticed you corrected me and yes, I meant the density of populations. I also meant the density of the population of England . It is in England where 84% of the UK population live as do the vast majority of immigrants.
You say the population density of Germany is 231 per square km, France 111, Italy 195 but it is a few more in England at 383.
Out of interest Scotland is 65 and Wales is 142.
I apologise that I was wrong saying that we were the highest but we come a close second to the Low Countries.

If you are going to break the UK population density down to England, Scotland and Wales, please allow me to do the same for Germany. The population density of the state of North Rhine Westphalia is 525 per square km and that is ignoring the obviously even more densely population city states of Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen.

I probably could better that if I broke it down into counties Lutz

 

[Lutz]

I probably could better that if I broke it down into counties Lutz

You maybe right, but with 17.9 million inhabitants in North Rhine Westphalia alone the counties aren't in the same league.

 

[JonnyG]

"I'm not going to even bother about replying to the rest of your diatribe

"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/7764311/Birth-rate-falls-in-England-for-first-time-in-almost-a-decade.html
It appears your argument is weaker than even i thought LB, it seems the numbers of EU immigrants here has been falling drastically since 2008! So it seems they arnt that interested in staying here to enjoy our wonderful benefits system afteralll!!!!!!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/7764311/Birth-rate-falls-in-England-for-first-time-in-almost-a-decade.html

It appears your argument is weaker than even i thought LB, it seems the numbers of EU immigrants here has been falling drastically since 2008! So it seems they arnt that interested in staying here to enjoy our wonderful benefits system afteralll!!!!!!

Thank you for the link but I can't understand what you are trying to say. All they are doing is trying to guess why the birth rate had fallen but they have no hard proof. BTW the old article is for 2009 births.
Interestingly on the same link you posted is another link written in the Telegraph and I urge you to read it. You will probably think that you've heard it before and you will be right, from me on this forum

....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8451917/Who-is-to-blame-for-fractured-Britain.html

 

[JonnyG]

Strange how we can read the same article and come up with totally different views.Yes it is a excellent article,maybe you are reading it wrongly,as it says nothing about sending EU immigrates away, or how they are ripping our benefits system off.
No one would dispute the need to integrate and the need to speak English. The article also mentions repeated governments balls up, and wait for it, the fact that the majority of immigrants Work hard and by doing so contribute to our economy.
If you recall LB, your gripe was about them ripping us off!

But even though i liked the article lets be clear the writer is still talking a load of ball in parts,at the turn of the 20th century jews lived in a small ghetto quater of east London, Germans lived in another small part, as did Italians ect ect, just check the records,they did finally integrate but certainly not overnight like that silly article thinks should happen, it took more than a mere 5 or 6 years!
My family are immigrants came here in 59,chesterfield, and guess what, the same bull could be said then as is said today, but they integrate,BUT NOT OVERNIGHT. i live close to Loughborough went school there guess what another Italian community hotspot back in the 60s, and no doubt the same Shite could have been written in the 60s concerning that group, and what about Bedford, Glasgow, Edinburgh, ect ect, they all had big groups of immigrants arriving and the same time, and grouping together and the older generation quite possibly never learnt the lingo overnight or even learned it properly so spoke in their native tongue because that's the only way they knew how to communicate!and has nothing to do with how the article puts it,"they don't want to integrate"
So when the article harps on about speaking up without being classed as a racist, well that might be right but it only shows that those speaking out don't know much about there own history and how integration has taken part previously ,if they did they would know integration takes time.
One would have thought that you would understand this with your experiences......

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Strange how we can read the same article and come up with totally different views.Yes it is a excellent article,maybe you are reading it wrongly,as it says nothing about sending EU immigrates away, or how they are ripping our benefits system off.
If you recall LB, your gripe was about them ripping us off!

But even though i liked the article lets be clear the writer is still talking a load of ball in parts,at the turn of the 20th century jews lived in a small ghetto quater of east London, Germans lived in another small part, as did Italians ect ect, just check the records,they did finally integrate but certainly not overnight like that silly article thinks should happen, it took more than a mere 5 or 6 years!
My family are immigrants came here in 59,chesterfield,
So when the article harps on about speaking up without being classed as a racist, well that might be right but it only shows that those speaking out don't know much about there own history and how integration has taken part previously ,if they did they would know integration takes time.

For a start yes, it is obvious from your posts of the last few years that somewhere along the line your family were immigrants but nothing wrong with that. Italy at a guess.
Secondly I haven't said anything about sending immigrants away (back home) unless they are illegal economic immigrants or those looking for an easier way of life through our benefits system or those who come here to commit crime but due to EU laws we cannot send back home. And yes, my gripe was about them ripping us off. Maybe some of us aren't prepared to turn the other cheek and excuse a murderer or rapist blaming his poor upbringing in the country of his origin. Maybe some of us put the victim first. Just by the fact they are in jail and when released will be on benefits with no intention of leaving soft touch Britain means they are ripping us off. So does the fact that those who leave and go back home can still claim benefits from this country whether it be unemployment or family.
Gio the year is 2011 not the turn of the 20th century. It is the future of our country that I'm concerned about and it's customs and culture. In another post I put that royalty is part of our culture whether the royal family are German, French, Spanish or whatever but I didn't expect the monarchy to last forever. I based that on immigration whether first, second or third because these people have no interest or affinity with British history. Understandably their interest would be with where their forefathers came from. A small pressure group (cranks) called Republic tried to usurp the royals wedding day but reading about it those who attended who wanted to abolish the monarchy were foreigners including Swedes, Americans etc.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/30/not-the-royal-wedding-republicans
Needless to say it was the only report I could find but that's not surprising considering the Guardian is a left wing paper. I'm not sure of what they are supposed to be guarding but it isn't the country

Another problem we didn't have to deal with in 1900 was radical Islam where it's a now well known fact that this country is the centre and recruiting ground for these terrorists. I wonder why ... lmao

You'll have to accept that we'll never agree Gio because losing our customs, culture and country means a lot to me whereas a very large part of the UK population don't give a damn because it isn't their culture.
I can assure you on my life that I'm not racist but I am a realist. There is no such thing as a pure blood Celt, Anglo Saxon, Scot etc. in this country and the same goes for the rest of Europe. Somewhere back in my lineage one of my ancestors weren't English but I consider myself so and because of this I will continue argue for my heritage.

 

[JonnyG]

"You'll have to accept that we'll never agree Gio because losing our customs, culture and country means a lot to me whereas a very large part of the UK population don't give a damn because it isn't their culture."
Surprisingly we do agree on many things, but like your statement above you just don't see how its not that straight forward.
I have absolutely no idea if a large part of the UK population gives a dam or not concerning our heritage, so how can you say that for sure?that is the same type of statement, that has been said over and over again through out history by many a person claiming they want to protect our heritage,even further back than when Queen Victoria married a German or the Saxons said that when the Normans invaded ect ect ect, its all part of our heritage

and as "our heritage /culture " covers so many different avenues and has been forever changing it begs the question which bits of "our heritage and culture" really concerns you LB? And does that make me less English because i have differing concerns?based far more on economic criteria on how to make more, rather than than make mere cuts.we are after all a culture based on trading! as much as anything else, we are a culture that has taken in migrants throughout the ages,and its made us stronger richer in culture and wealthier as a nation and not only in monetary terms.
Do we have some serious issues? Dam right we do, but they must be tackled in the right way for us to move forward, thats where we disagree..

 

[Allen774]

My god L/B I am shocked I alway's thought you were a thoroughbred Englishman of noble stock,it brings to mind an old Yorkshire saying," a rat that is born in a stable is not a horse", LOL

 

[seth1]

Very fair comments made here.I also share many of the same beliefs as Lord B although i have started to relax about the EU situation somewhat.The bottom line is this country has gone to the wall,alot of it our own fault- spineless leaders,outdated products,money scroungers.But the EU has not helped our corner,infact its made it easier for other countrys to come in and buy our manufacturing,but then again we didnt have to sell it to them.It seems to me quite alot of people hold resentment for these immigrants as though its their fault this country is knackered.Not quite true.
Your family settled here in 1959 Jonny,perhaps the reason for far less of an out cry back then was the country was in far better condition than present.Immigration was not at todays level.As for immigrants helping this country economically by putting money back in the system,this is true to a degree,but still a large proportion send most of their earnings back home,the whole idea of being here and nowere near put back in like a uk citizen would do.
This makes interesting news,every day this country pays 40 million to EU funding,so really we could build a new hospital every day in this country with that money.Surely thats a better way of life.I still dont get why were still in the union?

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

The bottom line is this country has gone to the wall

Sadly you are right seth and I cannot see it turning itself around. The rot has set in and the worms have eaten through to the core. There are many problems with the country but those who genuinely work I've no problem with. Where I have a problem is they continue to draw benefits after leaving the country.
Unfortunately where I live many eastern Europeans have no intention of working and where my daughter lives, which was a nice area, it's now blighted by them lying around drinking in any open space they can find. Fighting in the street is common place and my SIL has now fixed security cameras to their home at great expence to themselves.
Wrongly these eastern Europeans are all categorised as Poles which they aren't because there are many east European nationalities here and the Poles get the blame but despite that it's Poles who are blighting my daughter and family's life.
It was three Latvians who murdered a local lad and broke his girlfriends arm two years ago. They are now doing time at our expence and when released they are entitled to stay here due to laws made by foreign politico's.
Oh well, my time is limited on this earth now but it would be nice before I depart to know we had left the EU and were in control of our own laws.

 

[seth1]

You have my sympathy LB concerning your daughters welfare.As to leaving the EU,i cant see it happening,it would most likely cause a war to get out.It makes me wounder how we would go on if we did come out as regards to supporting ourselves.Mass manufacturing would have to start again.This alone would now be a problem for many reasons,but obvious ones would be, would we still sell to Europe or would they buy of us.This wouldnt be such a problem if the whole of the uk bought british again,this would lead to a demand.Hey presto we dont rely on Europe as much.We all know it doesnt work like that though,most people arnt patriotic to their home land,and lets face it when was the last time you drove a british ambalance,when plenty were on offer at the time that were brillant for the job.So as we all know even the government *don't support British manufacturing,perhaps because their scared of Europe and enjoy playing to their tune.
*Moderator edit.

 

[Lutz]

So as we all know even the government don't support British manufacturing,perhaps because their scared of Europe and enjoy playing to their tune.

How do you expect the government to support British manufacturing? Surely, if the quality and the price is right then the goods are competitive enough without the need for any government to step in.

Moderator comment: To be fair that isn't what Seth actually said. He used a word twice, which is not acceptable on this forum and had a different meaning! There wasn't really an alternative and 'don't support' doesn't describe what should have been said. It was either alter the meaning or remove the post.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Surely, if the quality and the price is right then the goods are competitive enough

This is why I believe that we would survive outside the EU.
As I've posted before, there are far more intelligent people than me out there who say we would. There was a forum on this very subject where the panel consisted of bankers, bosses of industry, economists, politicians etc. and the general consensus was that we could break the shackles of subjugation and survive. It is surprising how much of a manufacturing base we still have in this country and like Lutz said, if the goods are competitive then other countries in the EU aren't going to ignore us or stop selling their produce to us, a country of 60 million plus. Also in 2009 the UK overtook the USA as the worlds leading financial centre and London is the worlds #1 most economically powerful city and #1 in the world as a commerce centre.
What people shouldn't forget though is the world doesn't end on the borders of Europe.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

My god L/B I am shocked I alway's thought you were a thoroughbred Englishman of noble stock,it brings to mind an old Yorkshire saying," a rat that is born in a stable is not a horse", LOL

No Allen not a thoroughbred because when I was born the midwife said I was 'built like donkey'. Sadly I must have dreamt it