Another newbie needing towing weight advice sorry!

[birty]

Hi all and thanks for your help in advance,

We attended the caravan & motorhome show at the NEC over the weekend and were really excited to put down a deposit for a family caravan.
The caravan is an Elddis Crusader Zephyr 2024 model with a MTPLM (kg): 1,890 & MiRO (kg): 1,731.

Our intentions are to tow with a Citreon Dispatch 1000 Enterprise Bhdi 2019 van and the general vibe at the show from the various salesman I spoke to was that because it was a commercial van this shouldn't be an issue (the "Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer" "braked" weight in the V5 document is 2,000 KG)

However.... I then started reading a bit more into it and having looked at the VIN details and "Mass in service" weight on the V5 (1,597 KG) i am now incredibly nervous we have messed up and I could end up having to cancel my order which would be really upsetting :-(

The VIN details are below;

Line 1 = 2,640 KG
Line 2 = 4,040 KG
Line 3 = 1,500 KG
Line 4 = 1,500 KG

I hope somebody can help and please let me know if you need any more details.

Thanks

 

[RogerL]

Your VIN details show a basic towing limit of 1400 kg - BUT - you could increase it by not loading the van fully - since the van's payload is 1043 kg (2640-1597) that's quite possible depending on how you use/load the van.

Traditional wisdom is to limit towing to 85% of kerbweight for beginners so that would be 1597 x 0.85 = 1357 kg

 

[birty]

Hi Roger,
Thanks for coming back to me, so basically if the Caravan's MiRO is 1,731 KG, going on the traditional wisdom weight ratio for beginners I am 1,731 - 1,357 = 374 KG in the no-go zone before anything is even put into the caravan with an empty van?

The plan was to use the van/caravan for exhibiting at shows, so the van at a rough guess could be loaded with anything from around 300-400 KG in stock/equipment and then between 120-180 KG in humans.

Thanks

 

[RogerL]

Forget the MIRO - British caravans have such meagre payloads in general that it's best to assume it'll be running at MTPLM

 

[Challenger]

The problem with the shows is that most of the salesmen are anything but experts in their field. The large dealerships employ them for the duration of the exhibition . This week it's caravans and motorhomes, next week it's somewhere else with kitchen equipment or furnature.
I well remember a good number of years ago meeting a family of four on a Caravan Club (as it was in those days ) site with a brand new siv berth Ace tourer which they had ordered at that year's show.
They wre traumatised by the tow there in their VW Beetle 1300 and were dreading the return home !
The 'salesman' had assured them that the car would have no trouble handling the 'van.
ALWAYS carry out your own independent research before signing that order form !

 

[trevormonty]

Sales brochures says 100 towing limit is 1400kg braked, 120hp version is 2500kg. Nowhere was there any info on drivetrain ie FWD or RWD. Any caravan of that size I'd say RWD minimum ideally AWD.

 

[Lutz]

To make full use of the car's V5 towing limit of 2000kg you wouldn't be able to load the car up to more than 2040kg withput exceeding legal limits. That's 600kg less than the GVW. If the car's mass in service is 1597kg that would mean that you would only be able to put another 443kg payload in the car, including the noseweight of the caravan.
It's not an ideal combination and you will definitely be exceeding the 85% weight ratio recommendation quite considerably. In fact it will be over 100% which is about the maximum that one should stick to and more than some insurance companies will allow.

 

[Hutch]

Birty, use this site, Parkers to find your exact car with weights. This will be a help for yourself.

 

[Lutz]

Birty, use this site, Parkers to find your exact car with weights. This will be a help for yourself.

NEVER use any database to gather exact information. Such details can only be used as a rough indication, but no more than that. If you want definitive details you must refer to the vehicle's weight plate. For kerbweight, etc. which is not shown on the weight plate, go to a weighbridge and have it weighed.

 

[Hutch]

NEVER use any database to gather exact information. Such details can only be used as a rough indication, but no more than that. If you want definitive details you must refer to the vehicle's weight plate. For kerbweight, etc. which is not shown on the weight plate, go to a weighbridge and have it weighed.

It can be a useful site, rather than just relying on people on forums for information, they should NEVER, be relied on 100%.

 

[birty]

Thanks all I really appreciate your responses, unfortunately though I'm still a bit unsure on how I should move forward with this one...

I think (if I am understanding this correctly) the van mechanically (and possibly legally?) should be able to tow the caravan (this is based on the V5s figure of 2,000 KG, and the Caravans MTPLM of 1,890 KG, however... if I'm driving the van empty, based on towing recommendations/VIN figures I shouldn't really be towing anything more than 1,357 KG - it will be unsafe, unstable and overall just a hazard to my family and other people on the road.

If I load the back of the van with approximately 400 KG I could make the figures look a bit healthier and make the journey a bit more comfortable/stable but this could be a headache/worry all the time...? i.e. I would like to think we would sell stock at exhibitions so we could be travelling home from a show with a much lighter payload for example.

So does this mean I probably should be thinking very carefully about cancelling the caravan? Guess that means I could now end up in a battle with the dealer to try and get my deposit of £2,000 back :-(

 

[Hutch]

You will never, really be towing a caravan, with a totally empty " Van" their will be some basic equipment and probably a passenger. Remember another 35 kg for a towbar.
The 85 % "rule, is very outdated, and although a good thing years ago, how long does it take to become a competent tower.
Somebody that does 200 miles each way 3 times a year, for 5 years or someone going away doing 100 miles each way every second weekend for 9 months.
I think your best option, in my opinion, would be to go back and negotiate with the dealer for a lighter caravan.
Good luck.

 

[Lutz]

Whether the outfit is unsafe, unstable or a hazard to the family and other road users is up to you, not the caravan, but the lighter it is, the easier it will be for you to ensure a safe tow.
By the way, the weight ratio recommendation is based on kerbweight, not V5 mass in service. Not so very long ago on another forum, a difference of over 230kg was reported between mass in service and the vehicle's actual weight (which is, by defintion, close to kerbweight) and that was even documented as such by the vehicle manufacturer.

 

[GaryB]

V5 documents CAN be wrong, a previous Volvo of mine had the towing weight maximum as 750kgs instead of the correct 1800kgs. The vehicles information plate is the only true figures to use.

 

[Lutz]

V5 documents CAN be wrong, a previous Volvo of mine had the towing weight maximum as 750kgs instead of the correct 1800kgs. The vehicles information plate is the only true figures to use.

True, but the vehicle plate doesn't give details of the towing limit, only of the GVW and the Gross Train Weight. The towing limit is not necessarily the one subtracted from the other.

 

[Buckman]

If you can tow, it will be a very uncomfortable tow and you will be compromising the safety of your family.

Sadly signing a contract at the NEC is the same as signing a contract on the dealer's premises so you may lose your £2000 if the dealer gets nasty. Unfortunately the onus is on the driver to make sure that the trailer is safe to tow. In this case the sales person was probably correct regarding towing capability, but not safety.

May be worth considering buying an older 4x4 to use solely for towing?

 

[RogerL]

If you can tow, it will be a very uncomfortable tow and you will be compromising the safety of your family.

Sadly signing a contract at the NEC is the same as signing a contract on the dealer's premises so you may lose your £2000 if the dealer gets nasty. Unfortunately the onus is on the driver to make sure that the trailer is safe to tow. In this case the sales person was probably correct regarding towing capability, but not safety.

May be worth considering buying an older 4x4 to use solely for towing?

The OP needs to take products to sell at shows, hence the use of a van.

 

[birty]

Morning all,
I have messaged the dealer the same question I posted at the beginning of this post, so waiting to see what they come back with.

Hi Buckman, unfortunately having a car solely for towing wont be an option because we are just about to take possession of a Skoda Enyaq Coupe (which I know definitely wont be able to tow) and as Roger said we need the van for shows :-( the only other option would be to switch to a bigger van. But want to avoid that too really.

 

[Buckman]

Morning all,
I have messaged the dealer the same question I posted at the beginning of this post, so waiting to see what they come back with.

Hi Buckman, unfortunately having a car solely for towing wont be an option because we are just about to take possession of a Skoda Enyaq Coupe (which I know definitely wont be able to tow) and as Roger said we need the van for shows :-( the only other option would be to switch to a bigger van. But want to avoid that too really.

Or downgrade the caravan?

 

[Mel]

Or downgrade the caravan?

Good idea. The dealer may get difficult about returning your deposit but be much more flexible about switching it to a lighter van ( maybe a Phoenix?) The Phoenix GT75 642 has the same layout as the Cadiz but an MPTLM of 1433kg
Mel

 

[AndrewAventura]

It looks like you'd be aiming to tow with your van loaded up to about 2000-2100kg and you should take your caravan to be at its MPTLM or 1900kg.
That would put you right up at the gross train weight of 4040kg. So you'd be basically at the legal limits for towing with that van, and just within the van spec limit of 2000kg braked trailer.
So I figure you'd be legal. But pushing at what's sensible, and I'd be be nervous to embark on towing like that.
In general though, vans make very sound towing vehicles, front wheel drive or not. I've hired two vans to tow our caravan to markets - a VW transporter and a Ford Transit Custom. Both really capable and stable, though to be fair I probably had the van loaded up to about 2500kg and my caravan is just 1300kg MPTLM. (Even on a very muddy grass field, my Transit and caravan combo kept moving, skirting past the stuck 4WD double cab pickup. Satisfying!)
So, overall, I do think you need a stronger/heavier van to tow with. As a first step, though, why not find someone with a hefty trailer or caravan and see what its like with 1900kg on the back?
Another little point - make sure that your van has 13pin electrics and a towball with extended neck length that is compatible with a caravan stabilizer. The Transporter I hired did, the Transit didn't. You can proceed with a 7 pin adaptor, but the Caravan electronic stability won't work, and that's a bit nerve wracking and unwise. I drove very cautiously.

 

[Lutz]

It looks like you'd be aiming to tow with your van loaded up to about 2000-2100kg and you should take your caravan to be at its MPTLM or 1900kg.
That would put you right up at the gross train weight of 4040kg. So you'd be basically at the legal limits for towing with that van, and just within the van spec limit of 2000kg braked trailer.
So I figure you'd be legal. But pushing at what's sensible, and I'd be be nervous to embark on towing like that.

Actually, he would be 600kg over the limit of his Citroen if it is fully laden up to its GVW too.

 

[RogerL]

Actually, he would be 600kg over the limit of his Citroen if it is fully laden up to its GVW too.

The OP gave the estimates of their van payload in post #3 - it's not expected to be fully laden.

 

[GaryB]

Just to add another perspective here. A few years ago I towed a laden car transporter trailer with an empty Ford Transit van and the ride was awful. Having towed car trailers for years behind "normal" estate cars I was amazed how unstable the Transit felt. I put it down to the fact that it was empty with very little weight over the rear axle, whether this was right or not it put me off towing anything substantial with an empty van again.

 

[Lutz]

Just to add another perspective here. A few years ago I towed a laden car transporter trailer with an empty Ford Transit van and the ride was awful. Having towed car trailers for years behind "normal" estate cars I was amazed how unstable the Transit felt. I put it down to the fact that it was empty with very little weight over the rear axle, whether this was right or not it put me off towing anything substantial with an empty van again.

That's because the van's rear suspension is designed to cope with a full payload. In the case of vans the difference between running emtpy and fully laden are substantial, so a poor ride is to be expected if it is empty.