Aquaroll - Heated?

[ericmark]

I did put a spring in a box under the aquarole to drop voltage to 12 volt fridge and stop water freezing.

Sorry Eric, I dont understand this, can you explain more please.

Spring steel has a high resistance so ideal for making resistors able to take a high current, the transformer was 16 volt AC the fridge needs around 12 volt and it does not matter if AC or DC so I used a spring held on two insulated studs and a clamp so I could adjust the voltage to get fridge to temperature required. So 12 volt fridge now running on 230 volt, the spring clearly gets warm so putting it outside under the water carrier did a duel thing, took chill off water stopping in the main from freezing and cooled the spring (resistor).

Today we have 230 volt fridges so no longer needed.

 

[nicoll70]

Hi we've used an aquarium heater for years. And works brilliantly, always use it in the winter and it means you can have a very decent shower.

 

[Hutch]

Interesting Grey13.

To achieve say 43 degrees Celsius (I think 43deg is just below scalding point), what power output of heater would be required ?

I suppose if you used TWO aquarium, heaters both set to 20ć then you would get 40ć and not get scalded. :evil:

Grey told you months ago.

 

[Grey13]

OK Breakthrough! Will try heating the aquaroll water to 30 Deg C for each shower and see how long it extends a shower. My guess as a heating engineer dealing in temperature control is at least an extra 5 minutes in the shower. If it works "hallelujah " Watch this space.
Heater

 

[Grey13]

Note: Old age setting in, seems I posted it twice, sorry peeps. Well ready to test a new heater in my aquaroll next week (COVID permitting. Bought this heater which will easily raise the temp from 10 deg C to 30 Deg C in about 1/2 hour and the extra hot / warm water should give me about extra 5 minutes shower. Watch this space.

Hidom 500w ProHeat Quartz Aquarium Heater (HT-8500)

You are purchasing a high quality quartz 500W Aquarium heater suitable for aquariums up to 500 litres in size (HT-8500) Our easy adjustable heaters are completely submersible, and are suitable for both freshwater and marine aquariums. The temperature can easily be regulated between 20 and 32...

www.finest-filters.co.uk

 

[Scorpy]

I find this a very interesting topic, with many excellent and ingenious suggestions.

I'm afraid I'm not up to making calculations of heat loss/gain, flow rates and the like, but how about this suggestion...

Pour a kettle full of hot water into the nearly full aqua roll.....

adjust the temperature required by initially using less or more hot water ( kettle and saucepan of hot water etc) and then enjoy a long lasting hot shower...
Hope this helps, and of course
Happy Caravanning
paws

That's all well and good but where do you get the Kettle & Pan of water from? The Aquaroll or the tap by the shower block?
(asking for a friend!)

 

[PTA]

I once lit a fire under my Aquaroll.
Didn't work.
On a mre serious note. Onboard tanks look increasingly useful for winter caravanning.

 

[Grey13]

We only drink bottled or boiled water when at parks so the water in the van for hand basins and dishwashing really does not matter if it is 10 or 30 deg C. In any case it is my intention to just warm the aquaroll 30 minutes before a shower for initial test purposes. Time will tell.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Note: Old age setting in, seems I posted it twice, sorry peeps. Well ready to test a new heater in my aquaroll next week (COVID permitting. Bought this heater which will easily raise the temp from 10 deg C to 30 Deg C in about 1/2 hour and the extra hot / warm water should give me about extra 5 minutes shower. Watch this space.

Hidom 500w ProHeat Quartz Aquarium Heater (HT-8500)

You are purchasing a high quality quartz 500W Aquarium heater suitable for aquariums up to 500 litres in size (HT-8500) Our easy adjustable heaters are completely submersible, and are suitable for both freshwater and marine aquariums. The temperature can easily be regulated between 20 and 32...

www.finest-filters.co.uk

The idea of using an aquarium heater is great. But I must suggest caution, especially with the item you have indicated. From the packaging, it is clearly manufactured in China and that should always need caution regarding electrical safety.

Sadly there are too many items of Chinese design and manufacture easily available on web sites that do not conform to UK or EU safety requirements, and may present a shock hazard,

Do not be fooled by "CE" markings on electrical goods. Unlike CE markings on Gas appliances where the mark and its registration number related to confirmed compliance with safety regulations, CE marks on electrical goods means the company manufacturing the goods claims the goods are compliant, but there is no independent confirmation of compliance. And worse still some Chinese companies apply a mark that looks like the formal CE mark but it has no meaning what-so-ever.

An Aquaroll water carrier is typically 40L, and the device indicated claims to be 500W.

Water Heating Calculator for Time, Energy, and Power

The calculators on this page compute how long it takes to heat water, how much energy is consumed, and how much heating power is required.

bloglocation.com

A 500W device will need approx. 6min to raise 40L of water by just 1C.
30min of heating will will raise the water temperature by about 6.5C.

Obviously the final water temperature is dependant on the starting temperature of the water and how long the heater is used for. For safety reasons, you wouldn't want the cold storage water to be hotter than the maximum temperature you shower at. Medical sources suggest the maximum should be no greater than 41C., and to give you some adjustment range I wold suggest aiming for teh barrel temp of no more than 30C which when used in conjunction with the caravans own water heater will easily boost the temperature up to over 40C. This should give approximately 40L (Basically the whole content of the external barrel) of water for a hot shower.

Assuming the ambient temperature of teh water in the barrel is 10C, then you would need to run the heating element for (30-10)x6 minutes = 120M or 2 Hours to raise the barrel to 30C.

 

[RogerL]

The idea of using an aquarium heater is great. But I must suggest caution, especially with the item you have indicated. From the packaging, it is clearly manufactured in China and that should always need caution regarding electrical safety.

Sadly there are too many items of Chinese design and manufacture easily available on web sites that do not conform to UK or EU safety requirements, and may present a shock hazard,

Do not be fooled by "CE" markings on electrical goods. Unlike CE markings on Gas appliances where the mark and its registration number related to confirmed compliance with safety regulations, CE marks on electrical goods means the company manufacturing the goods claims the goods are compliant, but there is no independent confirmation of compliance. And worse still some Chinese companies apply a mark that looks like the formal CE mark but it has no meaning what-so-ever.

An Aquaroll water carrier is typically 40L, and the device indicated claims to be 500W.

Water Heating Calculator for Time, Energy, and Power

The calculators on this page compute how long it takes to heat water, how much energy is consumed, and how much heating power is required.

bloglocation.com

A 500W device will need approx. 6min to raise 40L of water by just 1C.
30min of heating will will raise the water temperature by about 6.5C.

Obviously the final water temperature is dependant on the starting temperature of the water and how long the heater is used for. For safety reasons, you wouldn't want the cold storage water to be hotter than the maximum temperature you shower at. Medical sources suggest the maximum should be no greater than 41C., and to give you some adjustment range I wold suggest aiming for teh barrel temp of no more than 30C which when used in conjunction with the caravans own water heater will easily boost the temperature up to over 40C. This should give approximately 40L (Basically the whole content of the external barrel) of water for a hot shower.

Assuming the ambient temperature of teh water in the barrel is 10C, then you would need to run the heating element for (30-10)x6 minutes = 120M or 2 Hours to raise the barrel to 30C.

The consumer demand for cheap products mean that there's a high chance of any product being made in China, up to and including Airbus A320 and A330 commercial airliners - since cheap price can't be used to identify inferior products, is there any other way to tell what is acceptable Chinese quality and what isn't ?

 

[otherclive]

The idea of using an aquarium heater is great. But I must suggest caution, especially with the item you have indicated. From the packaging, it is clearly manufactured in China and that should always need caution regarding electrical safety.

Sadly there are too many items of Chinese design and manufacture easily available on web sites that do not conform to UK or EU safety requirements, and may present a shock hazard,

Do not be fooled by "CE" markings on electrical goods. Unlike CE markings on Gas appliances where the mark and its registration number related to confirmed compliance with safety regulations, CE marks on electrical goods means the company manufacturing the goods claims the goods are compliant, but there is no independent confirmation of compliance. And worse still some Chinese companies apply a mark that looks like the formal CE mark but it has no meaning what-so-ever.

An Aquaroll water carrier is typically 40L, and the device indicated claims to be 500W.

Water Heating Calculator for Time, Energy, and Power

The calculators on this page compute how long it takes to heat water, how much energy is consumed, and how much heating power is required.

bloglocation.com

A 500W device will need approx. 6min to raise 40L of water by just 1C.
30min of heating will will raise the water temperature by about 6.5C.

Obviously the final water temperature is dependant on the starting temperature of the water and how long the heater is used for. For safety reasons, you wouldn't want the cold storage water to be hotter than the maximum temperature you shower at. Medical sources suggest the maximum should be no greater than 41C., and to give you some adjustment range I wold suggest aiming for teh barrel temp of no more than 30C which when used in conjunction with the caravans own water heater will easily boost the temperature up to over 40C. This should give approximately 40L (Basically the whole content of the external barrel) of water for a hot shower.

Assuming the ambient temperature of teh water in the barrel is 10C, then you would need to run the heating element for (30-10)x6 minutes = 120M or 2 Hours to raise the barrel to 30C.

Prof

Our caravan hot water system has no temperature safeguards unlike our domestic system. I could very easily just put the caravan shower onto full hot water which would leave the tank around 60- 70 degree C. But over the years that hasn’t happened because I adjust the hot and cold on the mixer before use. The current van has a mixer dedicated for the shower. That feeds a flexible hose with the shower head which has its own on- off spring loaded control handle. So for an adult the caravan system ( even a supplemented one ) should present minimal risk of burns.

 

[otherclive]

The consumer demand for cheap products mean that there's a high chance of any product being made in China, up to and including Airbus A320 and A330 commercial airliners - since cheap price can't be used to identify inferior products, is there any other way to tell what is acceptable Chinese quality and what isn't ?

Airbus have had a long relationship with China and as well as Final Assembly Lines fir A320 and A330 they also have a FAL fir the H135 helicopter. Chinese components are installed in all Airbus aircraft, but at present those aircraft produced on FAL are for domestic market.

In answer to your question how does a consumer know a good quality Chinese product from a poor quality one? Difficult to answer. But if I were buying an electrical product I would buy from a recognised EU or US etc brand. Then whilst it’s made by a recognised company you rely on their expertise and systems to provide assurance wherever their products are sourced. However it doesn’t always work. We bought a Tower pressure cooker that was made in China. Who led the design work I do not know. But they were subject to an EU wide recall. It took a while but we have now been provided a brand new redesigned unit, made in China. And the old one was returned prior to dispatch of the replacement. So by buying a recognised brand the safety aspects were addressed very well.

 

[Grey13]

The consumer demand for cheap products mean that there's a high chance of any product being made in China, up to and including Airbus A320 and A330 commercial airliners - since cheap price can't be used to identify inferior products, is there any other way to tell what is acceptable Chinese quality and what isn't ?

Well said Roger. I live fairly close to the AirBus wing plant in Broughton Chester. You are correct whole wings as well as many other bits and pieces are made around the world.

 

[Dustydog]

Prof ,
you are worrying me!
My VW Touareg has lots of bits on it “Made in PRC” including some of the Bosch brake bits!
Is this a problem? No!
Twenty years ago Bosch were making brake units in Malaysia. I have seen the factories. Cannon printers have been made in Vietnam for over twenty years.
My caravan tyres are Chinese but I am assured are U.K. compliant.
Have I missed a trick here?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof

Our caravan hot water system has no temperature safeguards unlike our domestic system. I could very easily just put the caravan shower onto full hot water which would leave the tank around 60- 70 degree C. But over the years that hasn’t happened because I adjust the hot and cold on the mixer before use. The current van has a mixer dedicated for the shower. That feeds a flexible hose with the shower head which has its own on- off spring loaded control handle. So for an adult the caravan system ( even a supplemented one ) should present minimal risk of burns.

There is quite a big difference between a normal installation and the one Grey is trying to implement. The most significant difference is your own system has both hot and cold water available so you can dilute the hot with the cold to achieve your desired temperature. Gray's system will be heating the external tank and thus there will be no cold to mix with scalding water. So I am agreeing with his suggested value of 30C max in teh external tank, that will allow him to draw the external 30C tank water (through the cold tap) and top up the temperature with hot tap at something close to 55 or 60C water.

This is certainly an unconventional approach.

 

[Hutch]

Gray, You have had over two year now to sort this out, how about this bit of kit, I know you don't like paying over the odds, but.

Camplux AY132N 5L Portable Gas Water Heater, Outdoor Shower for Camping, RV, Washing Horses : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Free delivery and returns on all eligible orders. Shop Camplux AY132N 5L Portable Gas Water Heater, Outdoor Shower for Camping, RV, Washing Horses.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[otherclive]

There is quite a big difference between a normal installation and the one Grey is trying to implement. The most significant difference is your own system has both hot and cold water available so you can dilute the hot with the cold to achieve your desired temperature. Gray's system will be heating the external tank and thus there will be no cold to mix with scalding water. So I am agreeing with his suggested value of 30C max in teh external tank, that will allow him to draw the external 30C tank water (through the cold tap) and top up the temperature with hot tap at something close to 55 or 60C water.

This is certainly an unconventional approach.

Prof
In the halcyon days of yore we would use the caravan shower whilst in southern France in summer. Our normal routine for some reason whilst on holiday is to shower in the early evening. By that time our Aqua roll would have 30-40 litres sometimes at a temperature not far off of that sought by Grey. In showering it was the Aqua roll “ cold” supply that would be heated further by supplementing it with water from the hot tank. When we used the shower in our current van in July ( a first) I suggest that whilst the ambient temperature wasn’t as high as France it was still over 20 deg C. So again “hot” supplemented “cold”.

Even at home in one of our bathrooms which has mixers but no thermostatic control it’s the cold that goes on first then then hot is introduced. But I’ve stopped using my elbow as a built in thermometer now that even the youngest grandchild is over 15 years. 😀

 

[Jcloughie]

Note: Old age setting in, seems I posted it twice, sorry peeps. Well ready to test a new heater in my aquaroll next week (COVID permitting. Bought this heater which will easily raise the temp from 10 deg C to 30 Deg C in about 1/2 hour and the extra hot / warm water should give me about extra 5 minutes shower. Watch this space.

Hidom 500w ProHeat Quartz Aquarium Heater (HT-8500)

You are purchasing a high quality quartz 500W Aquarium heater suitable for aquariums up to 500 litres in size (HT-8500) Our easy adjustable heaters are completely submersible, and are suitable for both freshwater and marine aquariums. The temperature can easily be regulated between 20 and 32...

www.finest-filters.co.uk

I agree that in theory your idea will lengthen the shower experience. Hopefully legionnaires will not be a problem as as you will not be keeping it warm for long periods. True, if it gets a bit too hot then you may loose the cooling effect of the ‘cold’ water leaving a risk of scalding. But I don’t think that that would be a large risk.

But I have a suggestion which could be used as well as or instead of that idea. Someone on another forum has made one of these and says it works well. Having studied it I can’t fault it. Personally I decided not to bother as we are happy with our quick shower routine.

So here it is (as far as I can remember).

It will work with Truma or Alde. It needs an extra tank some pipe, a non return valve and a small pump. Hot water is circulated from the existing hot storage tank, through the new tank. The temperature is therefore controlled by the existing sensors.

But the hot water storage can be doubled, or more.

I know that’s not a full explanation. But I will try to find his drawings and post them here.

John

OK. I have found it. Not mine, just copied from another forum. Quote.



“This is my system, the new tank was stainless steel, insulated with polystyrene tiles (about 25mm thick), the pump was from ebay - Brass bodied, doesnt need massive power, the one way vale and 't's came from a caravan shop. I do have a drain port on the new tank for draining down.



The way it works, when you want the additional hotwater, switch new pump on and water circulates round the water heater and the new tank, the existing water heater heats up the water when its done you have xx litres of additional hot water, switch off the pump and enjoy your shower! When you dont need the additional hot water turn off the pump and the additional tank will then just be full of cold water. Dead simple, nothing complicated, the size of the additional tank can be made to meet your needs ive had a 10 litre and now have 20 litres. A local sheet metal company made my second tank to my drawing and it cost £37 in stainless steel. The first one was from ebay and cost £7. 50! The pump was from memory about £35.“

 

[ProfJohnL]

The consumer demand for cheap products mean that there's a high chance of any product being made in China, up to and including Airbus A320 and A330 commercial airliners - since cheap price can't be used to identify inferior products, is there any other way to tell what is acceptable Chinese quality and what isn't ?

It can certainly be difficult, but there are some websites where samples of products are closely inspected for compliance, but they wont cover all products.

I am fully aware of how many items are produced in China, and it would be practically impossible to boycott them entirely. My point is about products that are principally designed in China for their own consumption , but where the producers or exporters see a potential market abroad and off load product that does not conform to our standards. These often have weird brand names most of which we do not recognise.

As Otherclive suggests there is a better chance of having a fully compliant product if its a purchased through a recognised UK store.

Its a whole other matter where cheap counterfeit products are passed off as quality products.

I'm not suggesting boycotting them (which is practically impossible)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Gray, You have had over two year now to sort this out, how about this bit of kit, I know you don't like paying over the odds, but.

Camplux AY132N 5L Portable Gas Water Heater, Outdoor Shower for Camping, RV, Washing Horses : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

Free delivery and returns on all eligible orders. Shop Camplux AY132N 5L Portable Gas Water Heater, Outdoor Shower for Camping, RV, Washing Horses.

www.amazon.co.uk

Hutch the device you suggest legally cannot be installed nor is it safe to use inside a caravan, it is for exterior use only.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree that in theory your idea will lengthen the shower experience. Hopefully legionnaires will not be a problem as as you will not be keeping it warm for long periods. True, if it gets a bit too hot then you may loose the cooling effect of the ‘cold’ water leaving a risk of scalding. But I don’t think that that would be a large risk.

But I have a suggestion which could be used as well as or instead of that idea. Someone on another forum has made one of these and says it works well. Having studied it I can’t fault it. Personally I decided not to bother as we are happy with our quick shower routine.

So here it is (as far as I can remember).

It will work with Truma or Alde. It needs an extra tank some pipe, a non return valve and a small pump. Hot water is circulated from the existing hot storage tank, through the new tank. The temperature is therefore controlled by the existing sensors.

But the hot water storage can be doubled, or more.

I know that’s not a full explanation. But I will try to find his drawings and post them here.

John

OK. I have found it. Not mine, just copied from another forum. Quote.

View attachment 767

“This is my system, the new tank was stainless steel, insulated with polystyrene tiles (about 25mm thick), the pump was from ebay - Brass bodied, doesnt need massive power, the one way vale and 't's came from a caravan shop. I do have a drain port on the new tank for draining down.



The way it works, when you want the additional hotwater, switch new pump on and water circulates round the water heater and the new tank, the existing water heater heats up the water when its done you have xx litres of additional hot water, switch off the pump and enjoy your shower! When you dont need the additional hot water turn off the pump and the additional tank will then just be full of cold water. Dead simple, nothing complicated, the size of the additional tank can be made to meet your needs ive had a 10 litre and now have 20 litres. A local sheet metal company made my second tank to my drawing and it cost £37 in stainless steel. The first one was from ebay and cost £7. 50! The pump was from memory about £35.“

It wold need an additional non return valve fitted in the left hand side "cold feed in " to prevent warmed water from running back to other fittings on teh cold water side.

 

[Jcloughie]

It wold need an additional non return valve fitted in the left hand side "cold feed in " to prevent warmed water from running back to other fittings on teh cold water side.

Yes, but, I think that in the persons setup, that non return valve was part of the original installation.


John

 

[RogerL]

It can certainly be difficult, but there are some websites where samples of products are closely inspected for compliance, but they wont cover all products.

I am fully aware of how many items are produced in China, and it would be practically impossible to boycott them entirely. My point is about products that are principally designed in China for their own consumption , but where the producers or exporters see a potential market abroad and off load product that does not conform to our standards. These often have weird brand names most of which we do not recognise.

As Otherclive suggests there is a better chance of having a fully compliant product if its a purchased through a recognised UK store.

Its a whole other matter where cheap counterfeit products are passed off as quality products.

I'm not suggesting boycotting them (which is practically impossible)

I've heard it said, by a AWS mobile technician, that the alloy wheels fitted to UK caravans are made in China with little or no quality control by the UK caravan maker - and this is why wheel balancing is so vital to avoid shaking a caravan to bits.

It's not easy to know which UK/EU manufacturers do exercise adequate quality control and which don't.

 

[Grey13]

I am fully aware of how many items are produced in China, and it would be practically impossible to boycott them entirely

I still have and have had businesses either importing from China / Taiwan or manufacturing products and have visited both on numerous occasions. Like everywhere in an economy you get bad, middle and top end manufacturers. I fail to see why you would even suggest "boycotting" an entire country for being normal. I wonder if you also advocate "boycotting" British products, afterall we had the horse meat scandal! To be perfectly honest it would be better IMO if you kept your personal prejudices out of my threads and stick to "water heating" especially by way of supplementing the hot water supply in a van. Thanks. If the powers that be don't like my post, feel free to delete but IMO far too often threads are hijacked and veer completely of topic.

 

[Grey13]

Sadly there are too many items of Chinese design and manufacture easily available on web sites that do not conform to UK or EU safety requirements, and may present a shock hazard,

John. On this matter, this element is a well made electrically sound fully submersible element designed for Koi ponds and aquariums. Without stripping it down it appears to be a high standard MI (magnesium insulated) element similar to these https://cartridgeheaters.co.uk/technical-specifications/ - In any case, risk of electrical shock is really very small since each van and then pitch power point (double) are protected by RCD's that trip at or below 20 mA ( a very safe current to prevent shock) BTW I also happen to supply equipment to a large UK manufacturer of heating elements used in vans, boats and motorhomes hot water systems.