I currently run my caravan with blue BUTANE bottles,am i also able to use orange LPG bottles, also are their any different issues between the two.Roll on the new season weekends are so boring.
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butane/lpg
- Thread starter Andrew_5105555
- Start date
Main issue is that butane will not gas off in cold weather and therefore your cooker wo'nt work, but propane will work in much colder weather.
In a nutshell that's it !!!!!!
In a nutshell that's it !!!!!!
G
Guest
As Danny states, use in cold weather is the advantage of propane. The reason butane is still used widely is that it produces more calorific heat per unit than propane, it has 4 carbons in the chemical structure whereas propane has 5, so if you do only summer touring then butane will give you more heat for your bucks. This was the main reason why in the good old days there were two pressure regimes for the regulators for each.
Is it ok to use LPG bottles like the ones used on Fork lift trucks with screw connector or is this a no go?
G
Guest
The connection type is irrelevant, it is the pressure of the regulator that is important. If your van is post 2004 then it needs to be 30mb. Pre 2004 it needs to be 37mb. The other important thing is that if the regulator is not mounted on the cylinder then the hose has to be propane approved high pressure hose. Look at the Calor webpage as it shows the various connections/hoses etc.
Thats a big no no, those bottles are designed to produce a liquid for the trucks engine just like petrol/diesel. They are also designed to be used lead flat not stood upright. The pressure in the bottle is different to that of the bottles caravans use so even if you found a connecter I doubt if it would work that effective.
I bet you work where you can get a free supply of forklift gas just like me ?!!!!!!!!
I bet you work where you can get a free supply of forklift gas just like me ?!!!!!!!!
G
Guest
Hang on a minute. You have just said they produce liquid, so how come it suddenly changes to 'free gas'? According to the techies that means 2 different physical states, so which is it?
I also question, purely as a layman, the pressure differences. I have worked with forklifts, but I fully accept I didn't explore the tanks too much. But the construction is pretty similar to all other gas cylinders and I suspect the amount of liquid inside is similar, or less than that in other cylinders, especially as it can be mounted ion its side. I would have assumed the relationship between a gas in liquid state, and gaseous state is defined by the nature of the gas, so if a forklift cylinder contains propane then the characteristics will be the same. If it is different gas then a different relationship will entail. If it is not propane then obviously you cannot use it for any other purpose.
Just curious
I also question, purely as a layman, the pressure differences. I have worked with forklifts, but I fully accept I didn't explore the tanks too much. But the construction is pretty similar to all other gas cylinders and I suspect the amount of liquid inside is similar, or less than that in other cylinders, especially as it can be mounted ion its side. I would have assumed the relationship between a gas in liquid state, and gaseous state is defined by the nature of the gas, so if a forklift cylinder contains propane then the characteristics will be the same. If it is different gas then a different relationship will entail. If it is not propane then obviously you cannot use it for any other purpose.
Just curious
The reason butane is still used widely is that it produces more calorific heat per unit than propane, it has 4 carbons in the chemical structure whereas propane has 5, so if you
Are you sure this is correct ??
Val & frank
Are you sure this is correct ??
Val & frank
Petroleum hydrocarbon structures
Petroleum consists of three main hydrocarbon groups:
Paraffins
These consist of straight or branched carbon rings saturated with hydrogen atoms, the simplest of which is methane (CH4) the main ingredient of natural gas. Others in this group include ethane (C2H6), and propane (C3H8).
Scotch lad for you
Hydrocarbons
With very few carbon atoms (C1 to C4) are light in density and are gases under normal atmospheric pressure. Chemically paraffins are very stable compounds.
Petroleum consists of three main hydrocarbon groups:
Paraffins
These consist of straight or branched carbon rings saturated with hydrogen atoms, the simplest of which is methane (CH4) the main ingredient of natural gas. Others in this group include ethane (C2H6), and propane (C3H8).
Scotch lad for you
Hydrocarbons
With very few carbon atoms (C1 to C4) are light in density and are gases under normal atmospheric pressure. Chemically paraffins are very stable compounds.
G
Guest
butane is 4, but I accept propane is 3, not 5. I confused it with pentane which is 5. Too much wine on a Sunday night.
It would not let me transcribe the full article.
Val &Frank
Who was it you worked for offshore ???
Val & frank
Val & frank
Gentlemen,
I give in................at the end of the day gas is gas, as long as when you want to boil your kettle for a cuppa it works who cares.
Failing that give John Wickersham a ring, he's a know it all !
I give in................at the end of the day gas is gas, as long as when you want to boil your kettle for a cuppa it works who cares.
Failing that give John Wickersham a ring, he's a know it all !
G
Guest
Butane
C4H10 Mr 58.123 Mp -138 Bp -0.45
Butane is a highly soluble, flammable colourless gas. It is also an asphyxiant. Butane is used in the manufacture of synthetic rubber and as an intermediate in organic synthesis. Also used as:
food additive, fuel, solvent, refrigerant, standby and enricher gas, producer and extractant, and used in plastic foam production and for calibrating instruments. Its used in the aerosol is as a propellant.
Propane
C3H8 Mr 44 Mp -177 Bp -42
Propane is also a flammable, colourless, odourless gas. Like butane, it is an asphyxiant, which when present in an atmosphere in high concentrations, leads to reduction of the oxygen concentration by displacement or dilution. For this reason a foul smelling odourant is often added. It is also explosive, and affects the central nervous system, limiting its uses commercially.
Ironically the above was taken from the ingredient list for a deodorant. Horrible thoughts of what you spray on yourself after a bath.
Although paraffins are alkanes they usually are defined by carbon numbers greater than 20, so can't see the conection to butane or propane in this context. Paraffins in this definition are not the stuff that used to be sold for heaters. That was actually kerosene. I used linear paraffins in my work a few years back, but they had a double bond in the chain, which defined them. Their attraction was stability and environmental benefits. They were also a lot cheaper than the olefins used prior to that.
And just to be picky on a Sunday night. How do you have a 'straight ring', I suspect you mean 'chains', but it is Sunday so it is all forgiven.
Cheers
C4H10 Mr 58.123 Mp -138 Bp -0.45
Butane is a highly soluble, flammable colourless gas. It is also an asphyxiant. Butane is used in the manufacture of synthetic rubber and as an intermediate in organic synthesis. Also used as:
food additive, fuel, solvent, refrigerant, standby and enricher gas, producer and extractant, and used in plastic foam production and for calibrating instruments. Its used in the aerosol is as a propellant.
Propane
C3H8 Mr 44 Mp -177 Bp -42
Propane is also a flammable, colourless, odourless gas. Like butane, it is an asphyxiant, which when present in an atmosphere in high concentrations, leads to reduction of the oxygen concentration by displacement or dilution. For this reason a foul smelling odourant is often added. It is also explosive, and affects the central nervous system, limiting its uses commercially.
Ironically the above was taken from the ingredient list for a deodorant. Horrible thoughts of what you spray on yourself after a bath.
Although paraffins are alkanes they usually are defined by carbon numbers greater than 20, so can't see the conection to butane or propane in this context. Paraffins in this definition are not the stuff that used to be sold for heaters. That was actually kerosene. I used linear paraffins in my work a few years back, but they had a double bond in the chain, which defined them. Their attraction was stability and environmental benefits. They were also a lot cheaper than the olefins used prior to that.
And just to be picky on a Sunday night. How do you have a 'straight ring', I suspect you mean 'chains', but it is Sunday so it is all forgiven.
Cheers
Scotch lad
In the late 70s I worked in Algeria on LNG plants, before starting up what is I think is now refered to as the Black Pig in the North Sea. I think I read in an earlier post by you something about a memorial to the victims of Piper Alpha at Hazlehead ??? well I pass this about 3 times aweek and nod to a couple of guys I knew.
Val & Frank
ps it all depends on n-butane or iso-butane
Val & Frank
In the late 70s I worked in Algeria on LNG plants, before starting up what is I think is now refered to as the Black Pig in the North Sea. I think I read in an earlier post by you something about a memorial to the victims of Piper Alpha at Hazlehead ??? well I pass this about 3 times aweek and nod to a couple of guys I knew.
Val & Frank
ps it all depends on n-butane or iso-butane
Val & Frank
Hello ANDREW
SAFETY WARNING PLEASE READ>
Caravans need to use Vapour Take-off bottles of LPG, in other words the valve assembly on the bottle is alwyas at the top and is never immersed in the liquiefied gas, only the vapour.
Some lift trucks and other industrial uses of LPG use liquid take off, where the valve assembly draw the liquid rather than the vapour.
My advice is DONT RISK IT.
If you get it wrong, you would be liable to answer Health and safety or negligence charges which are criminal offences.
SAFETY WARNING PLEASE READ>
Caravans need to use Vapour Take-off bottles of LPG, in other words the valve assembly on the bottle is alwyas at the top and is never immersed in the liquiefied gas, only the vapour.
Some lift trucks and other industrial uses of LPG use liquid take off, where the valve assembly draw the liquid rather than the vapour.
My advice is DONT RISK IT.
If you get it wrong, you would be liable to answer Health and safety or negligence charges which are criminal offences.
Hello Scotch Lad,
Well spotted, yes a full bottle of LPG propane or butane does contain both liquid and vapour phases, though I think you knew that already.
For anyone else who is interested, here is my 'Blue Peter' explanation of how LPG bottles work.
Both propane and butane have the characteristic that if you compress the gas enough it will change phase into its liquid state. This will also happen if you chill the gas, which is why at about 0 centigrade, butane converts to liquid and stops providing gas to the caravan. The same happens for propane but the temperature is about -40 Centigrade (it also happens to be -40 Fahrenheit as well its just where the temperature scales cross).
The bottles work in exactly the same way as a pressure cooker. When no gas is being consumed, (and assuming the bottle is warm enough) the liquid boils (yes boils!) and produces vapour. The pressure inside the bottle rises until it matches the vapour pressure for the gas, when it suppresses the boiling.
When you take vapour or liquid off the bottle, the pressure drops so the liquid starts to boil and releases more vapour, until the pressure is restored to prevent further boiling.
In a domestic pressure cooker, you need to apply external heat to the cooker to maintain the pressure, In the LPG bottles exactly the same external heat is needed, but in this case it collects the energy from the temperature of the air around the bottle. - This also means that the bottle tends to self-cool when gas is being used. This has implications for butane in winter, where the air temperature may be above freezing, but because of the energy used to vaporise the LPG, the bottle temperature will fall and may prevent vaporisation thus no gas in the caravan. A typical demonstration of this effect is when roofers are boiling their bitumen using a propane bottle. With the burner on, the bottle cools and forms frost around the liquid content of the bottle.
The same effect is used by some bottle content indicators, that use temperature sensitive liquid crystals that change colour according to the surface on which they are attached.
As for the pressure inside the bottles, as both liquid and vapour are coincident in the same sealed volume they must assume the same pressure (ignoring hydrostatic heads due to the height of the bottle).
The actual pressure is dependant on the type of lpg, and the temperature of the bottle. Propane has a greater vapour pressure than Butane.
Sadly in this commercial world none of the gas is free!
Well spotted, yes a full bottle of LPG propane or butane does contain both liquid and vapour phases, though I think you knew that already.
For anyone else who is interested, here is my 'Blue Peter' explanation of how LPG bottles work.
Both propane and butane have the characteristic that if you compress the gas enough it will change phase into its liquid state. This will also happen if you chill the gas, which is why at about 0 centigrade, butane converts to liquid and stops providing gas to the caravan. The same happens for propane but the temperature is about -40 Centigrade (it also happens to be -40 Fahrenheit as well its just where the temperature scales cross).
The bottles work in exactly the same way as a pressure cooker. When no gas is being consumed, (and assuming the bottle is warm enough) the liquid boils (yes boils!) and produces vapour. The pressure inside the bottle rises until it matches the vapour pressure for the gas, when it suppresses the boiling.
When you take vapour or liquid off the bottle, the pressure drops so the liquid starts to boil and releases more vapour, until the pressure is restored to prevent further boiling.
In a domestic pressure cooker, you need to apply external heat to the cooker to maintain the pressure, In the LPG bottles exactly the same external heat is needed, but in this case it collects the energy from the temperature of the air around the bottle. - This also means that the bottle tends to self-cool when gas is being used. This has implications for butane in winter, where the air temperature may be above freezing, but because of the energy used to vaporise the LPG, the bottle temperature will fall and may prevent vaporisation thus no gas in the caravan. A typical demonstration of this effect is when roofers are boiling their bitumen using a propane bottle. With the burner on, the bottle cools and forms frost around the liquid content of the bottle.
The same effect is used by some bottle content indicators, that use temperature sensitive liquid crystals that change colour according to the surface on which they are attached.
As for the pressure inside the bottles, as both liquid and vapour are coincident in the same sealed volume they must assume the same pressure (ignoring hydrostatic heads due to the height of the bottle).
The actual pressure is dependant on the type of lpg, and the temperature of the bottle. Propane has a greater vapour pressure than Butane.
Sadly in this commercial world none of the gas is free!
All of this info is from the Calor site, I have just picked a commonly used bottle for caravans and done the sums.
If it jumbles up on pasting (spreadsheet) I will type it in again.
Bottle (Kg) price (pence) KW/h per Kg pence per KW/h
Butane 7 1499 13.62 15.72
Propane 6 1399 13.83 16.86
Propane heat is 7.23% more expensive than butane in these bottle sizes if you buy from the calor website today.
Normally the difference reduces as you go to bigger bottles.
Propane has a higher calorific value per Kg but lower per volume hence differing bottle weights.
If it jumbles up on pasting (spreadsheet) I will type it in again.
Bottle (Kg) price (pence) KW/h per Kg pence per KW/h
Butane 7 1499 13.62 15.72
Propane 6 1399 13.83 16.86
Propane heat is 7.23% more expensive than butane in these bottle sizes if you buy from the calor website today.
Normally the difference reduces as you go to bigger bottles.
Propane has a higher calorific value per Kg but lower per volume hence differing bottle weights.
Unfortunately it took the spaces etc out.
Not much I can do about that so if you can not read it easily try pasting to another doc and putting the spaces in.
Not much I can do about that so if you can not read it easily try pasting to another doc and putting the spaces in.
Sorry for posting again but did the sums on the larger bottles we use and propane is cheaper!
Bottle (Kg) price (pence) KW/h per Kg pence per KW/h
C/(BxD)
Butane 7 1499 13.62 15.72
Propane 6 1399 13.83 16.86
Butane 15 2049 13.62 10.03
Propane 13 1749 13.83 9.73
Bottle (Kg) price (pence) KW/h per Kg pence per KW/h
C/(BxD)
Butane 7 1499 13.62 15.72
Propane 6 1399 13.83 16.86
Butane 15 2049 13.62 10.03
Propane 13 1749 13.83 9.73
One more try
Bottle...Kg...price(pence)...KW/h per Kg...pence per KW/h
Butane...7......1499.........13.62...........15.72
Propane..6......1399.........13.83...........16.86
Butane..15......2049.........13.62...........10.03
Propane.13......1749.........13.83............9.73
Bottle...Kg...price(pence)...KW/h per Kg...pence per KW/h
Butane...7......1499.........13.62...........15.72
Propane..6......1399.........13.83...........16.86
Butane..15......2049.........13.62...........10.03
Propane.13......1749.........13.83............9.73
Hi,
There were some questions about the difference between Forklift gas and camping gas.
Camping gas is either butane or propane, and there are plenty of threads on the functional differences if you do a search on the forums.
Forklift gas is usually propane or LPG (a natural mixture of propane, butane and a few other gaseous petroleum hydrocarbons) - so no real difference in the gases.
The forklift engine is designed to run using liquid LPG or propane, so instead of the camping gas bottles that have a "gas take off" system, forklift bottles have a flexible dip tube that picks up the liquid layer in the bottle - this is fed under high pressure to the engine - where it's injected, vaporised and burnt.
You must NEVER use forklift gas in a caravan - mainly because the appliances will receive liquid propane (even if the bottle was stood up the dip-tube will still grab liquid) - and this will spray out into the van like a garden hose spraying water. If you were dumb enough to try and light this stream, think flame thrower.
Robert
There were some questions about the difference between Forklift gas and camping gas.
Camping gas is either butane or propane, and there are plenty of threads on the functional differences if you do a search on the forums.
Forklift gas is usually propane or LPG (a natural mixture of propane, butane and a few other gaseous petroleum hydrocarbons) - so no real difference in the gases.
The forklift engine is designed to run using liquid LPG or propane, so instead of the camping gas bottles that have a "gas take off" system, forklift bottles have a flexible dip tube that picks up the liquid layer in the bottle - this is fed under high pressure to the engine - where it's injected, vaporised and burnt.
You must NEVER use forklift gas in a caravan - mainly because the appliances will receive liquid propane (even if the bottle was stood up the dip-tube will still grab liquid) - and this will spray out into the van like a garden hose spraying water. If you were dumb enough to try and light this stream, think flame thrower.
Robert
A BASIC LESSON IN ORGANIC CHEMISTRY.... No, the info is NOT right.. Butane has four carbon atoms as stated but propane has three carbon atoms, not five. The molecule that has five carbon atoms in the same configuartion is called pentane.
The reason why propane is better for cold weather than butane derives from this molecule composition. The less carbon atoms in the molecule, the greater tendency the molecule will have to be a gas since there is more free space surrounding the molecule and the molecule itself is more volatile.
The 'cracking process' is used to break crude oil into smaller components and 'filtered' to give purer products. The lowest carbon based produce is methane that has one carbon atom, ethane that has two, propane - three, butane - four, then pentane, hexane, heptane etc. The next one which has eight carbon atoms (remember the octo-pus that has eight legs)... octa gives rise to the eight carboned molecule octane..what we more commonly call petrol.
NO GAS SYNDROME - Propane will start liquefying at temperatures below -42 degrees centigrade and butane is also a gas but will liquefy at temperatures below -0.5 degrees C. So at reasonably normal outdoor temperatures, both are gases, but in winter where temperatures drop below -0.5 C, butane starts to liquefy - no gas, no caravan cooking or heating.
On the subject of vehicle fuel.. petrol is fine as a liquid until temperatures drop below -57 degrees C so few worries there unless you drive to Siberia in winter. Those of us that have diesel powered vehicles should be fimiliar with the term diesel waxing which happens in the winter, where the diesel that is normally a liquid actually starts to solidify at below zero temperatures (diesel is a complex mix of petroleum distillates with typical carbon atoms numbering between 10-15 in its compound). To overcome this 'waxing', additives are available for the fuel to 'thin it out', but on a nearly full tank of diesel, adding a gallon of ordinary petrol will prevent waxing.
Hope this has explained rather than confused !!
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