Capital Punishment, would you re-introduce it now?

[Parksy]

I'm sure that many older forum members may remember when convicted murderers were sentenced to death here in the UK and it's often said that the majority of UK citizens would vote for the re-introduction of capital punishment if a ballot were to be held.

The argument against capital punishment often centred around cases where either the wrong person was convicted and hanged such as when Timothy Evans was the victim of a miscarriage of justice in the Christie murders at Rillington Place.

Those who support the reintroduction of capital punishment for some murders often counter this argument by stating that such a miscarriage of justice could no longer happen because of modern advances in forensic science, particularly DNA evidence.

The aquittal on appeal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito who were convicted of murdering British student Meredith Kurcher in Perugia, Italy mainly because DNA evidence was fatally flawed throws the question of capital punishment open once again.

What if Knox and Sollecito had been wrongly condemned to death and executed?

I haven't seen all of the evidence or studied this trial so I can't comment on the probability of guilt or innocence for the freed prisoners and my deepest sympathies go out to the Kurcher family who are the ones really serving a sentence.

However, unless a conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt it is unsafe and the accused must be given the benefit of this doubt so Knox and Sollecito were freed on appeal.

Would you still re-introduce capital punishment knowing that DNA evidence can be mis-handled, police have been known to commit perjury in the past to secure a conviction and sensationalist media reporting greatly influences and prejudices many cases?

 

[Essexeddie]

Yes I would but only if its absolutly without doubt. But I'm afraid its a waste of time as I can never see it happening.

.

 

[mullsy1]

Personally I dont agree with the death penalty since I dont think the state has the right to take a life anymore than any individual.My dad used to say hanging was too good for them.I do believe though that life should mean life.How depressing it must be to spend 40 years looking at the same four walls.
I think if you were to ask the people on death row in the US ,I reckon for the majority,the end would come as a relief....keep em banged up

 

[philspot1]

I really don't think we should make any serious comments about the Italian Justice System - if there really is one!! (Think Berlusconi)
Hard luck on Amanda Knox et al., but I prefer our legal system with all (and I do mean ALL) its faults. You just feel that sometimes the "authorities" simply can't leave a case alone, even when they have only the smallest, vaguest bits of evidence to go on. But I suppose we can't have barristers dropping below the poverty line (that's £200,000 per annum to you and me).

 

[Parksy]

I'd imagine that Amanda Knox will make a good wad of wonga through newspaper and tv deals, maybe a Hollywood movie.
There have been some grave miscarriages of justice in British legal history too and let's not forget that in recent times police chiefs appear to have been political appointees and have been allegedly in the pockets of the Murdoch press.

 

[Parksy]

I'd imagine that Amanda Knox will make a good wad of wonga through newspaper and tv deals, maybe a Hollywood movie.
There have been some grave miscarriages of justice in British legal history too and let's not forget that in recent times police chiefs appear to have been political appointees and have been allegedly in the pockets of the Murdoch press.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If the evidence is 100%, for example if he/she was caught in the act or made a failed attempt at suicide after committing murder I would vote yes. I cannot see the sense in keeping them in jail at taxpayers expence and we all know that prison is no longer a true punishment. Even if life meant life look at the cost of keeping them in there. Just look at the money Raoul Moat and Derek Bird saved the taxpayer

Well done to both of them I say. It's nice to think that those police tazers might have helped Moat pull the trigger.
If the whole prison system was reorganised, quangos like the Prison Reforms Trust and Liberal Democrats, along with Ken Clarke, were abolished or sent to China, North Korea, Zimbabwe or Myanmar I might agree to keeping them in prison. This would mean no luxuries like TV, games, gyms etc. Only plain food to be fed them and get them to do jobs, even in the community like picking up litter. A ball and chain will stop them running

Like Eddie said though, it ain't gonna happen.

 

[JonnyG]

I really don't think we should make any serious comments about the Italian Justice System - if there really is one!! (Think Berlusconi)
Hard luck on Amanda Knox et al., but I prefer our legal system with all (and I do mean ALL) its faults. You just feel that sometimes the "authorities" simply can't leave a case alone, even when they have only the smallest, vaguest bits of evidence to go on. But I suppose we can't have barristers dropping below the poverty line (that's £200,000 per annum to you and me).

Interesting idealogical.! under "our wonderful system" no appeal would have been herd yet! "think "berlusconi " indeed he is a pratt. but what on earth does that have to do with the Italian justice system. in fact he clearly knows more about their system than you do,as he has been dodging legal prosecution for 2 decades.And him a pratt!!!!! Bacala comes to mind,ask an Italian what it means.

No, I'm against capital punishment,because mistakes happen all too often...

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Personally I dont agree with the death penalty since I dont think the state has the right to take a life anymore than any individual.My dad used to say hanging was too good for them.I do believe though that life should mean life.How depressing it must be to spend 40 years looking at the same four walls.
I think if you were to ask the people on death row in the US ,I reckon for the majority,the end would come as a relief....keep em banged up

But they don't spend 40 years looking at the same four walls! They spend it watching Sky premium channels, playing pool, training in the gym, having conjugal visits, chatting with mates, using the internet and even going on shopping trips. In other words a lot of what we would do if we had the time. Those on death row have a choice, and the vast majority elect to try every appeal they can to stay where they are.

 

[ValA.]

Definitely not - there's another current possible serious miscarriage of justice issue in Britain, with a Scottish nurse convicted for murder, of four/possibly five elderly women in Yorkshire Hospitals, all of whom died during his shifts. They apparently all suffered some mysterious huge reduction in their blood sugar levels. What the jury weren't told is that this has about a 10% chance of happening in elderly, seriously ill patients, without any suspicious cause being identified. Indeed, in the same hospitals (but not in his shifts) there were several other deaths where low blood sugar was also reported! Did the jury know this? No they didn't!
Fifty years ago no doubt he would no longer be on this earth to defend himself - at least science has moved on since then.........but corruption, inaccuracy, sloppiness, mistakes, and a thousand other causes could all easily lead to a serious miscarriage of justice!
On the other hand, I do think prison is too easy an option if you're guilty but just imagine spending forty years looking at the same walls, if you were convicted of murder, and REALLY didn't commit the crime in the first place...............................! I doubt even INNOCENT people, possibly still on Death Row would choose the ultimate solution.

 

[JonnyG]

Personally I dont agree with the death penalty since I dont think the state has the right to take a life anymore than any individual.My dad used to say hanging was too good for them.I do believe though that life should mean life.How depressing it must be to spend 40 years looking at the same four walls.
I think if you were to ask the people on death row in the US ,I reckon for the majority,the end would come as a relief....keep em banged up

But they don't spend 40 years looking at the same four walls! They spend it watching Sky premium channels, playing pool, training in the gym, having conjugal visits, chatting with mates, using the internet and even going on shopping trips. In other words a lot of what we would do if we had the time. Those on death row have a choice, and the vast majority elect to try every appeal they can to stay where they are.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on radio 2 they were discussing this incident,some old chap in his 70s phoned in,and has been asked onto the vine show. spent 24 years in prison ,was released a few years back.when finally his innocences was proven. no he didn't spend it watching this and that, or any other of those things stated he was a segregated lifer! and so what if they did spend 40 years with all the mod cons,If you should not have been locked up in the first place,what difference does it make YOUR LOCKED. UP! would you swap a life on the outside for a life on the outside for free sky!!!!!!! thought not

 

[chrisbee1]

There is a general misconception that people are sent to prison for punishment. They are actually sent there as punishment. The punishment is the loss of liberty that the rest of us enjoy. Okay, they may have sky TV, play stations etc but prisoners are still subjected to rules that the rest of us aren’t. If I fancy reading a book in bed I don’t have to worry about “lights out”, I can change my meal times and choice of food if I fancy. Chinese takeaway? Yeh, I just pop down the road and get one. Nice weather this week end? Think I may go to the beach.
I don’t take too much notice of ex cons telling us that prison is a holiday camp, I think a lot of that is bravado. They don’t want to admit that they didn’t enjoy being locked up. Why to you think they wear hoodies and scarves across their face when commiting crimes? It's not as a fashon statement, it's because they don't want to loose their freedom.

 

[Parksy]

Well said Chrisbee, prison is not the sort of holiday camp that I'd ever want to visit!
My younger brother is a solicitor who, at an early stage of his career, had to visit prisoners inside the prisons and he gave us some graphic anecdotal descriptions of conditions and life inside the places that he had to go to.
When capital punishment was abolished the people were told that life imprisonment would mean just that but over time sentencing has been eroded to the point whereby a life sentence is now generally accepted to be around 15 years before the prisoner is released under licence.
Small time criminals, car thieves, burglars etc seem to have to commit a very large number of crimes before they are locked up, they are given chance after chance to rehabilitate which appears to lead to their utter contempt for the law and for society in general.
When horrific crimes such as child murders are commited and the perpetrator is convicted my own knee jerk reaction is often to wish for the death penalty but the police are not infallible, there has been evidence of past corruption and although I'm broadly supportive of the ordinary copper on the street I wouldn't like to stake my life on the word of the senior cops because they reportedly appear to be less than honest and trustworthy.
The Meredith Kurcher case proves that DNA evidence when mishandled can be unreliable so I wouldn't really and honestly support a return to capital punishment, but I believe that offenders should be imprisoned much earlier when they begin to commit offences and life sentences ought to be at least 25 years before release under licence and in some cases a life sentence should be life incarcerated until the prisoner dies.

 

[chrisbee1]

I fully agree Parksy. In the uproar about sentences following the recent riots many so called experts (or do gooders as I prefer to call them) prattled on about re offending rates and the overused “prison doesn’t work” catchphrase. One of the problems as I see it is that most petty criminals have far too many chances before being incarcerated, they are already career criminals. By all means use an ASBO for anti social behaviour or a community order for petty theft if it’s a first offence but if they break it then lock them up for 6 months. Perhaps then they may learn early enough that their behaviour is not acceptable.

 

[Surfer]

If there is conclusive proof that they committed murder, then they should pay for their transgresson by way of the needle or hanging. This will serve as a detterrent for others. At the moment murder is too eaasy. A slap on the wrist and a 10 year prison sentence with no thought for the family of the victim who has been deprived of a loved one. The killing of a police constable should be a mandatory death sentence!

 

[drsorento]

I would bring back capitol pumishment tomorrow, but it would have to be after all doubt had been removed. I dont see why the likes of Ian Huntley should sit in a modern prison at my expence.
For lesser offences I would bring back the birch.
It has to start with the cane in schools thats what kept us in order.
All of witch will never happen as there are too many do gooders in the country.

 

[Parksy]

When I was at school we were lucky enough to be taught mainly by the wise and tolerant gentlemen who had seen action or service during the second world war.
These men commanded our respect, we genuinely liked them even though we were snot nosed adolescent children of the brave new world of the 1950s and 60s.
They rarely had to resort to using the cane, when they did the unlucky recipients were more often than not boys who were destined for the scrap heap anyway because of their upbringing and their failure to discern right from wrong and to learn from their mistakes. Corporal punishment was never administered as a result of academic failure, only unacceptable behaviour warranted the cane and it seemed to us that younger less experienced teachers were more likely to cane pupils than the service veterans who were giants amongst men to us.
I'm not sure that brutalising children of today at school would be an answer although I agree that actions must carry tangible consequences which is not the case at the present time.
My own father (who brought us up single-handedly because he was a widower) rarely needed to administer a slap, a look and a quiet word when he came home from work was more than enough.
We hated to think that we'd let him down in any way and neighbours would soon report any misdeeds to our father, so we minded our manners and our behaviour at all times.

For the likes of Ian Huntley I hope that every minute is an hour, every hour is a day, every day is a year and every year is a lifetime for him and his ilk.
Hanging him would provide him and his conscience with a merciful release, let him grow old locked away in a segregation unit where he can spend his darkest hours pondering the terrible crimes that he has commited.
Is Fred West suffering for the things that he did to this day? He took the easy way out!
I'm more than happy to pay to keep Huntley and those like him locked away for ever and a day, let them look at tv so that they can be reminded of what they are missing.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

If I understand this right the anti-CP people are suggesting it is better to torture these murderers by keeping them alive than to end their suffering by hanging! How cruel is that!
I like to think I'm full of compassion, so why don't we offer a quick humane end to all lifers, let's see how many see it as a way out. Very few I suspect.

 

[mauron]

Good post, Parksy.
I would ensure firstly that prisoners serve their full terms - if they get life (ie 25 years) then they serve 25 years. No being let out early for good behaviour. If they don't behave then time should be added on to their sentence.
I would introduce a the death penalty for cases without any doubt (Murder 1) for the likes of Ian Brady and Peter Sutcliffe.
Murder in the heat of the moment would be a "lesser" charge resulting in prison terms.
All rapists and paedophiles would be chemically (or surgiically) castrated.
Have I missed out anyone...........No......Good!
By the way, did I mention my dad ran North Korea

 

[thursdays child]

Parksy, I have thought long and hard about capital punishment and my feelings are still unchanged, No, is my answer and under no circumstances can I be persuaded otherwise thus far,The very idea fills me with horror.The most emotive cases that would warrant the death penalty are, in my personal opinion,the result of mental illness.I cannot imagine a sane person doing such dreadful things.The death penalty was supposed to be the ultimate deterrent but this argument fails as soon as you execute the first person. In America they still have the highest execution rate and how flawed is their system? I know if some maniac harmed a child I loved I would be wanting vengeance but thankfully that would not be allowed and persons with less clouded emotions are going to make the decision.There are always going to be anomalies, ergo mistakes, whatever scientific progress is made it is still in the hands of human beings who are fallible.
Thursdays Child

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Good post, Parksy.
I would ensure firstly that prisoners serve their full terms - if they get life (ie 25 years) then they serve 25 years. No being let out early for good behaviour. If they don't behave then time should be added on to their sentence.
I would introduce a the death penalty for cases without any doubt (Murder 1) for the likes of Ian Brady and Peter Sutcliffe.
Murder in the heat of the moment would be a "lesser" charge resulting in prison terms.
All rapists and paedophiles would be chemically (or surgiically) castrated.
Have I missed out anyone...........No......Good!
By the way, did I mention my dad ran North Korea

Let's remember though, Brady and Sutcliffe aren't even in prison, they're looked after in a secure hospital with even more facilities than normal prisons including internet access although I was told when visiting (work related I hasten to add) that certain words and phrases are picked up and access to certain sites is banned. Perhaps that's why there is so much liberalism on this forum, most of the members are in Broadmoor (only joking).
Seriously though, it does lead to the famous comparison, mad or bad and the argument that you shouldn't execute someone for being mentally ill. I'm not convinced by that.

 

[chrisbee1]

Seriously though, it does lead to the famous comparison, mad or bad and the argument that you shouldn't execute someone for being mentally ill. I'm not convinced by that.

Hard as I find it to accept, the experts have decided that certain people are mentally ill. Are they criminals or patients? Is their offence as uncontrollable as a flu victim sneezing? If this is truly the case then can we demand capital punishment be returned? Of course we can’t.

 

[Parksy]

By the way, did I mention my dad ran North Korea

Is you dad Kim II Sung??

Let's remember though, Brady and Sutcliffe aren't even in prison, they're looked after in a secure hospital with even more facilities than normal prisons including internet access although I was told when visiting (work related I hasten to add) that certain words and phrases are picked up and access to certain sites is banned. Perhaps that's why there is so much liberalism on this forum, most of the members are in Broadmoor (only joking).
Seriously though, it does lead to the famous comparison, mad or bad and the argument that you shouldn't execute someone for being mentally ill. I'm not convinced by that.

I wouldn't consider myself to be particularly liberal John, my point when I started the thread was that many people believe that DNA evidence is infallible and would be happy to see the death penalty re-introduced in this country on that basis.
They genuinely believe that mistakes that have been made in the past could never be repeated because DNA evidence would rule out a miscarriage of justice.
The release on appeal after serving 4 years of a life sentence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito has proved that DNA evidence when mis-handled can be as unreliable as any other forensic evidence.
What if Knox and Sollecito had been hung?
It would all be rather too late for them now wouldn't it?
The USA executes a considerable number of mentally ill people, the chances of being executed in the U.S. for capital crimes diminishes when better educated or more affluent felons are involved.
It's no co-incidence that the overwhelming majority of those executed in the U.S. are black, poorly educated, unable to afford proper legal representation and in many cases either educationally sub-normal or mentally ill.
The problem here has been the lack of provision for the mentally ill for purely financial reasons, 'care in the community' has meant that many with severe mental illness have been largely left to their own devices, unsuprrvised and untreated.

 

[Parksy]

................I know if some maniac harmed a child I loved I would be wanting vengeance but thankfully that would not be allowed and persons with less clouded emotions are going to make the decision.There are always going to be anomalies, ergo mistakes, whatever scientific progress is made it is still in the hands of human beings who are fallible.
Thursdays Child

That's precisely the point TC, even with modern scientific advances the Meredith Kurcher case proves that mistakes are made and the human beings involved in the prosecution were definitely shown to be fallible.
Would anyone trust the police and the British justice system in it's present form to get everything 100% right 100% of the time?
I wouldn't!!!
I'd agree that sentencing should be much tougher and a harsher prison regime might instil a bit of fear and respect into those who start off as petty thugs and spend much of their lives being given repeated chances and soft sentences which rarely involve time spent in jail.
A lot of these repeat offenders go on to commit bigger crimes including in some cases murder, the latent criminality of the new British underclass ought to be nipped in the bud before this happens.

 

[thursdays child]

How far would we regress if some of the old "standards" were applied? Chopping off the hands of thieves and robbers,birching young children,public executions,"justice being seen to be done"?Have we not just had a prime example of people taking the law into their own hands with the riots? I am not a "do gooder" and abhor all forms of repression.There is a need for some sort of staus quo for us all to cohabit the planet as harmoniously as is possible.The biggest problem I have encountered in life,in all it forms,is "crisis management" that usually results in a total embargo that irradicates one problem and causes a bigger one ie:- resentment and unrest. I cannot imagine having to attend a ritualistic killing,which is my view of executing another human being, no matter how far down the evolutionary chain they may be.I am biased as regards our legal systems having had first hand proffessional experience with it on more than one occassion. and found it only as good as the people involved.They are just people after all with the same prejudicies and failings as the rest of us.Do they have the right to end a life? No, no more than the acccused.This my own very personal belief and remains unchanged to date.I give due respect to the views of all.Until I am sure that our law enforcers are without fault I shall not be moved.
I do agree that a life sentence should mean just that,otherwise it is just a nonsense.Human beings getting it wrong??? AGAIN ?
Thursdays Child