Car Insurance and disclosure

[raywell]

My car insurance is due for renewal and last year I insured
with the company LV, and as always, took the step of clearing with them I was
towing a caravan. This they said was noted and not a chargeable issue. Happy
days.

Fast forward to renewal and after some research I chose to
stay with LV but with some haggling lowered my premium. The lady with whom I
was dealing went through the policy and as usual I checked re: towing the
caravan, again I was told no charge and ok. However a couple of minutes later
she asked me ‘as you tow a caravan, do you have a towbar fitted. I replied that
yes I did as the string kept breaking, she laughed and took the comment in good
humour, BUT she said that the towbar should be added as a modification, of
course I had no problem with that, especially when she told me again it was not
a cost addition. I asked that surely the fact I had informed LV of me towing a
caravan that surely it was accepted that a towbar was fitted. I was shocked to
hear that it did not. How they imagine us towing without the trusty towbar
beats me lol. However I’m now legal with my insurer and they are aware of me
having a towbar as well as towing a caravan.

My point here is that maybe it’s not worth taking for
granted to your insurer that if you tell them you tow a caravan or even a
trailer for that matter. You should always double check the need to add the
towbar as a modification to your car.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I renewed my car insurance a few days ago with the insurer I use for the 7th year in a row and again went through the discussion of towing. They don't keep a record of it!! I did however convince the lady on the phone that in my case the towbar was an OPTION at purchase and NOT a modification. It was fitted by the dealer before I handed over any money.

 

[otherclive]

Whether the towbar came fitted (ex works or via dealer) or you had it fitted is not relevant. The insurer needs to know as it affects their risk. Most don't charge any extra. The risk aspect is multi fold. It increases the value of the car, it may causes additional damage in the event of a rear end shunt which increases repair costs. Etc.

 

[Raywood]

If your insurer asks if the car has been modified you must answer yes. Even a factory fitted one is a modification from the standard spec. Once you have told them unless they ask the question again then you do not neede to advise them again at renewal. Once they know of a modification and accept it they are deemed to be aware of it for as long as the car is insured with them.
My insurers only ask for any that modification improves acceleration, speed or performance, in which case you need not declare it.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. When it comes to automotive insurance nothing can be taken for granted and you must inform your insurers of might seem the most trivial or inconsequential happening even thought it might not have resulted in damage.
Back in January 2012 a small car was left parked up close to the kerb on the opposite side of the road to my old house,it was on the top of what was a short,sharp rise in the road topography.
There had a been a prolonged period of bad weather,snow,ice,rain,ice and no road clearing by the local council that had assured everyone that the happenings of 2011 & 1010 would not be repeated.
I had gone out one of my cars that was on/at the kerbside and had just locked it. I turned around and saw the small car coming down the hill backwards and across the road.
It struck the rear of my neighbours car and pushed it into the back of mine. Her car a newish Vauxhall Astra was pretty messed up and the front lower had deformed on my towball.
My car showed not damage whatsoever but being an automatic I drove out immediately and did the regular test for automatic correct functioning;all was fine and still is.
Now the punch line. I reported the INCIDENT to my insurance provider LV and it was initially listed as a NON FAULT and no damage accident. I very quickly put the situation straight and informed them YET AGAIN that I was not in the car and it was parked up and locked. More importantly I reminded them that I am required to inform them of anything that is relevant to my insurance contract with them. I further reminded them,had I failed to so do and it came up at a later date I would have been a potential victim of my own NON DISCLOSURE of a material fact.

 

[ProfJohnL]

............
Now the punch line. I reported the INCIDENT to my insurance provider LV and it was initially listed as a NON FAULT and no damage accident. I very quickly put the situation straight and informed them YET AGAIN that I was not in the car and it was parked up and locked. More importantly I reminded them that I am required to inform them of anything that is relevant to my insurance contract with them. I further reminded them,had I failed to so do and it came up at a later date I would have been a potential victim of my own NON DISCLOSURE of a material fact.

I assume from your posting that when you say you corrected the insurer it was because you were concerned that your car might have damaged. If this is your reasoning then I think you should have insisted tha your car was fully inspected by the insurer so that any damage could be put right sooner rather than later, and after all if there is underlying damage it might impair your safety.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

............
Now the punch line. I reported the INCIDENT to my insurance provider LV and it was initially listed as a NON FAULT and no damage accident. I very quickly put the situation straight and informed them YET AGAIN that I was not in the car and it was parked up and locked. More importantly I reminded them that I am required to inform them of anything that is relevant to my insurance contract with them. I further reminded them,had I failed to so do and it came up at a later date I would have been a potential victim of my own NON DISCLOSURE of a material fact.

I assume from your posting that when you say you corrected the insurer it was because you were concerned that your car might have damaged. If this is your reasoning then I think you should have insisted tha your car was fully inspected by the insurer so that any damage could be put right sooner rather than later, and after all if there is underlying damage it might impair your safety.

Hi Prof J L. I corrected the insurer on the basis that they had initially listed it as An Accident albeit a Non Fault. It was An Incident and I was not in the car but watched as the runaway car came down the hill albeit slowly and suffering with a partial handbrake failure but with enough speed to propel my neighbours car into the back of mine.
My car was parked up on the correct side of the road and facing downhill and in P on the auto box, the handbrake was off. There was absolutely no damage to my car. As I have previously stated, I took the car out on a test drive to confirm that the auto box was functioning as it should. It was and I reported it as such to the insurers.
I was satisfied that there had been no ill-effect from the incident and that is some 5,000 miles ago.

 

[otherclive]

Leaving an auto in Park and the handbrake off is not good practice and could lead to earl autobox failure. the reason being that if the handbrake is not applied the weight of the car moves forward when you relaese the footbrake after putting the car into park. This can lead to internal damage that shortens the boxes life. If you dont want to leave the handbrake oon in icy weather it is better to use a small discrete wedge under the front wheel then and let it take the cars weight. Then let the handbrake off.

 

[Surfer]

Leaving an auto in Park and the handbrake off is not good practice and could lead to earl autobox failure. the reason being that if the handbrake is not applied the weight of the car moves forward when you relaese the footbrake after putting the car into park. This can lead to internal damage that shortens the boxes life. If you dont want to leave the handbrake oon in icy weather it is better to use a small discrete wedge under the front wheel then and let it take the cars weight. Then let the handbrake off.

It can also cause early brake failure. Due to non use by the previous owner, on applying the handbrake, one the brake shoes literally fell apart and jammed up inside the rear drum. That was when I discovered that in addition to brake shoes we also had brake pads on the rear drums. I have always used the handbrake and will continue to do so.

 

[Dustydog]

About two years ago Saga and Aviva said their policies didn't cover towing caravans. Only "Trailers"!!

After numerous complaints they publicly stated they had got it wrong and they did cover towing caravans for third party road risks.
So yes. Very important to tell your insurer.

As far as the rear damage story, please be careful.
You do need to be certain the tow bar and tow ball haven't been damaged by the impact. As it was not you fault ask the third party insurers to pay for a new tow bar etc. If they say no remind them it will be they who become liable for all damage and injury if the towing gear fails in the future.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Leaving an auto in Park and the handbrake off is not good practice and could lead to earl autobox failure. the reason being that if the handbrake is not applied the weight of the car moves forward when you relaese the footbrake after putting the car into park. This can lead to internal damage that shortens the boxes life. If you dont want to leave the handbrake oon in icy weather it is better to use a small discrete wedge under the front wheel then and let it take the cars weight. Then let the handbrake off.

It can also cause early brake failure. Due to non use by the previous owner, on applying the handbrake, one the brake shoes literally fell apart and jammed up inside the rear drum. That was when I discovered that in addition to brake shoes we also had brake pads on the rear drums. I have always used the handbrake and will continue to do so.

Hi Surfer. I have had automatics for the last 48yrs and most of them have gone to 240,000miles and more. I have never had a failure because of leaving them in P and not applying the handbrake.
The only failure that I had was on a Ford C3 box in a Ford Sierra 2ltr Ghia Estate. I purchased that vehicle from a female with 35,000 miles on it. She had apparently put an incorrect transmission fluid into the box and it blew the seals. I discovered that a few months later and nearly a £1000.00 lighter.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

About two years ago Saga and Aviva said their policies didn't cover towing caravans. Only "Trailers"!!

After numerous complaints they publicly stated they had got it wrong and they did cover towing caravans for third party road risks.
So yes. Very important to tell your insurer.

As far as the rear damage story, please be careful.
You do need to be certain the tow bar and tow ball haven't been damaged by the impact. As it was not you fault ask the third party insurers to pay for a new tow bar etc. If they say no remind them it will be they who become liable for all damage and injury if the towing gear fails in the future.

Hi Dustydog. The Chromed towball cap on my car was not even so much as dented. The skimpy plastic lower valance of her front bumper deformed like a polystyrene coffee cup. There was no suggestion that my car had suffered any ill,at all.
As I said, I test drove the car thoroughly and went through the full auto transmission integrity proceedure and called it a day.

 

[Raywood]

I must say I do not understand your point. The car was involved in an accident, it was not damaged, and it was not your fault. Essentialy the insurer was recording your report and nothing more. The facts that you were not in the car and it was not damaged is irrelevant it was still an accident and was recorded correctly. These things are kept on a computer and if you do not fill in these points the computer will reject the report.

 

[JonnyG]

sigh.. where exactly does one draw a line to all this? is your insurance invalid because you return to your car after shopping and it has a tiny tiny dent or a new almost not visable scratch? are these not accicents too? caused by a person or vehicle unkown? are you all reporting to your insurance company these minor events? to stop your insurance becoming invalid? because fault or non fault you are deemed a greater risk eitherway.compared to no accidents.....
if i dont claim and i have only had one incident of a 5 or 6 mph bump,then i dont tell and unless the almighty speaks direct to the insurance company,how on earth will they know! computers or no computers......
the so called "duty of disclosure" on the policyholder.bla bla bla that dates back to some law from 1906 has been challenged and has led to reforms to the benifit of the insured as of 2012,as insurance companies relied to heavily on this very confusing and old law.........

 

[seth1]

Jonny G well said.Ive got more insurance policys than i can think of.Most business's do.But i tell them what i have to and no more,i dont lie about anything but thats it.The least i speak to my insurers the better.Its a worthless piece of paper that if you dont use it,you lose the money you paid for it year after year and when you do need it you get penilised the next year to compensate for it.I fail to see how a factory fitted tow bar can be a modification,it was fitted when the car was built.Its more like an option.So now do we tell them about every option box we ticked when specing the new car?No we dont.Take another angle on it,A car was bought second hand fitted with a tow bar but the new owner never fitted it.Should he disclose it as a modification?I think no because he bought it like that and he never carried the modification out.For all he knows it came new like that.I think options is the key word.

 

[Raywood]

If you do not claim and nobody claims against you then it is not realy neccessary. If you claim against the other party and not your insurance then you should inform your insurer as they can find this out from the Insurance Fraud system and might just take the point. I know someone who has his own business, his van was parked and a dustbin lorry hit it, the councils insurers paid his claim and he thought no more of it. His car insurers (who I would not insure my door nobs with) then cancelled his private car policy for non disclosure although their procedures were so incorrect it bordered on unbelievable. For those who think the cheapest will do they are usually there or thereabouts and they are horrendous to deal with.

 

[emmitdb]

Hi All,

The incident involving "Thetravellingrooster" brings up yet another anomoly regarding accidents.
Assuming as he describes it his vehicle was not damaged in any way, and yet the 'other vehicle' folded like a polystyrene cup there would be no reason or indeed obligation for the other party to provide him with any details ie name and address etc. because, simply put, his vehicle was undamaged. On the other side of the coin, he would have had to provide his details to the other party.
What did Dickens say about the Law?

 

[Raywood]

Technically after an accident you should exchange details but if it is clear one party is innocent and they have no damage there is no point and I think it is simply beyond belief that they could be charged with failing to give their details. That would be a criminal offence so it would need police involvment in the first place which would surely not happen. If the police do attend they would record all parties details.

 

[RogerL]

The requirement is to stop and give identity and insurance details to anyone with reasonable cause to ask - this would include any driver or passenger involved in the collision, a police officer attending, land-owner if property is damaged and even bystanders who might have a claim on the driver.
Damage to the vehicle, or absence of it, is irrelant - it's quite possible for a driver to cause an accident but not be hit - in this case the other drivers do have to right to ask, and be given, identity and insurance details.
Actual responsibility for the accident is normally determined later, either in court or in correspondence between insurers and/or solicitors.

 

[Surfer]

Technically after an accident you should exchange details but if it is clear one party is innocent and they have no damage there is no point and I think it is simply beyond belief that they could be charged with failing to give their details. That would be a criminal offence so it would need police involvment in the first place which would surely not happen. If the police do attend they would record all parties details.

There is a very real danger that the other party may agree with you at the time of the incident and not to bother with exchanging details, but then may have second thoughts later and report you for Hit & Run and decide to claim whip lash injuries. You will not have a leg to stand on which is why it is always best to exchaneg details and report it to the insurance company even if you are not making a claim.

 

[RogerL]

If an accident has occured, I'd want the other driver(s) details even if there's no apparent damage to my car or injury to occupants - it's not uncommon for damage/injury to be genuinely discovered later.

 

[JonnyG]

The requirement is to stop and give identity and insurance details to anyone with reasonable cause to ask - this would include any driver or passenger involved in the collision, a police officer attending, land-owner if property is damaged and even bystanders who might have a claim on the driver.
Damage to the vehicle, or absence of it, is irrelant - it's quite possible for a driver to cause an accident but not be hit - in this case the other drivers do have to right to ask, and be given, identity and insurance details.
Actual responsibility for the accident is normally determined later, either in court or in correspondence between insurers and/or solicitors.

Not totally correct, if there is no apparent damage or injury then you only need to give your name, address, vehicle. you do not have to give insurance details to any third party if in your opion there is no damage and no injury...but in theory you should then report the indident to the police within 24 hours including your insurance doc....
So its proberbly better to give all details at the scene but not Law to do so given the circumstances we are discussing...

 

[RogerL]

Your opinion about others damage/injury counts for little - if they request the details, it's an offence not to give them.

 

[JonnyG]

Your opinion about others damage/injury counts for little - if they request the details, it's an offence not to give them.

Sorry clearly you are or have worked in Insurance and therefore believe what is indented into their mindset....
Your statement is simply not true,and maybe you could come up with some stories of actual persons who have been prosicuted for not given their insurance details at the time of the incident but had insurance and reported the incident to the police within the 24 hour time limited given that 'in their opinion no one was hurt and their was no damage'...funny what you say about 'your opinion about others counts for nothing' as thats exactly what does count if in Your opinion there is not injury or damage then No. you do not have to give insurance details on the spot,but as i stated,it is easier than then going to a police station within 24 hours to report it.

 

[RogerL]

The exact wording of the Road Traffic Act 1988, section 170, para 2 is as follows:-
The driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle
must stop and, if required to
do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so requiring, give his name and
address and also the name and address of the owner and the identification marks of
the vehicle

para 4 goes on to state:-
A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) ... above is guilty of an offence.

Your own opinion as to whether those grounds are reasonable is irelevant