Caravan gross weight.

[Brasso530]

I've been following a very interesting thread on "the other forum"(caravan talk)regarding weight plate for caravan,looks like it's going to be coming to a conclusion.If you have time/ interested read it all,8 pages,Basically it's someone wanting a definitive answer from Bailey about which plate is the legal one,the ncc one at door or the(usually higher ) one in gas locker.
P.s mods,if you don't want to advertise another forum feel free to delete,or just this bit,cheers.

 

[otherclive]

I've been following a very interesting thread on "the other forum"(caravan talk)regarding weight plate for caravan,looks like it's going to be coming to a conclusion.If you have time/ interested read it all,8 pages,Basically it's someone wanting a definitive answer from Bailey about which plate is the legal one,the ncc one at door or the(usually higher ) one in gas locker.
P.s mods,if you don't want to advertise another forum feel free to delete,or just this bit,cheers.

Well at least the one in the locker doesn't fade after couple of years.

 

[ProfJohnL]

During the design phase a caravan or coach built trailer manufacture will decide on the speciation for the trailer including the target MTPLM for the model. Let's say the MTPLM is to be 1425kg. They then need to find a suitable chassis and axle from a chassis supplier. The supplier produces a range of products which each have maximum load ratings. The trailer manufacture has to choose chassis components that will as a minimum carry the trailers required MTPLM, but the chassis components are only available in load ranges in multiples of 100kg. The trailer manufacture has to choose the 1500kg chassis, but the trailer is still only designed for 1425kg maximum all up weight.

The EU recognise how such trailers are manufactured, and the whole vehicle type approval process for trailers regonises the final stage builder of the trailer to be the appropriate body to set the enforceable MTPLM for a trailer. The EU construction and use regulations define how and where the enforceable weight plate for a trailer must be located.

The NCC plate has no legal authority, as they are not the caravan manufacture, nor an agency operating on behalf of the type approval bodies for the government. It is another of those long term mysteries why they choose to insist caravan manufactures have to apply the NCC's calculated Weight figures rather than the figures required by law.
It all adds up to more confusion for customers.

 

[Buckman]

The big problem arises when someone buys a caravan so that the combination is just under 3500kg according to the sticker on the body of the caravan however the fixed plate inside the locker or elsewhere would take them over the 3500kg threshold. They would unknowingly possibly be committing an offence.
There is no law in the UK that states that the caravan body must have the manufacturer's or NCC sticker on the body. I am not referring to the fixed plate. If there is no plate easily visible the DVSA would probably look at the tyre load for a prosecution.
Although in the UK DVSA may prosecute on the lower MTPLM overseas they may prosecute on the higher MTPLM weight and the driver would not be allowed to proceed on theri journey although in their home country they are "legal".
This also raises the issue of insurance in the event of a mishap as the driver does not have a B+E licence for the higher weight although the B licence covers the MTPLM weght on the sticker by the door on a caravan. Would the insurance pay for a claim for amishap in a foreign country if the driver has exceeded the restriction of their B driving licence?

 

[Raywood]

This point does need a legal conclusion although we are unlikely to be caught by it others might.
As for the insurance point to turn a claim down the insurer would first have to show that the weight was excessive and caused or contributed to the accident and that the driver was guilty of serious negligence in not knowing this, assuming it is correct which I suspect not.
Basically the chassis is what the chassis manufacturer feels the chassis can stand but the body manufacturer knows what they have built and may have good reason to lower that figure. Against that many caravan manufacturers will issue a revised plate for a higher figure without any changes to the caravan which might counter this point. My feeling is you need proof of the MTPLM from the caravan manufacturer with you and if anyone points to the chassis manufacturers figure you point out that the caravan manufacturer has built the body onto the chassis and is in a better place to judge what the maximum weight is. I doubt that many officials will have the knowledge to even argue the point but you do get the odd officious idiot that might.
I am not sure how far this point is known in the industry though. Our caravan has a manufacturers MTPLM of 1430kg and this is shown on the Lunar sticker, but it also shows the chassis limit of 1450 which the dealer was using on the sales sheet. It does make you wonder what customers who do not understand these points get told.

 

[otherclive]

This point does need a legal conclusion although we are unlikely to be caught by it others might.
As for the insurance point to turn a claim down the insurer would first have to show that the weight was excessive and caused or contributed to the accident and that the driver was guilty of serious negligence in not knowing this, assuming it is correct which I suspect not.
Basically the chassis is what the chassis manufacturer feels the chassis can stand but the body manufacturer knows what they have built and may have good reason to lower that figure. Against that many caravan manufacturers will issue a revised plate for a higher figure without any changes to the caravan which might counter this point. My feeling is you need proof of the MTPLM from the caravan manufacturer with you and if anyone points to the chassis manufacturers figure you point out that the caravan manufacturer has built the body onto the chassis and is in a better place to judge what the maximum weight is. I doubt that many officials will have the knowledge to even argue the point but you do get the odd officious idiot that might.
I am not sure how far this point is known in the industry though. Our caravan has a manufacturers MTPLM of 1430kg and this is shown on the Lunar sticker, but it also shows the chassis limit of 1450 which the dealer was using on the sales sheet. It does make you wonder what customers who do not understand these points get told.

So I guess in the case of your caravan Lunar would issue you an upgrade of 20kg if sought, and a new “NCC” sticky tally.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is no law in the UK that states that the caravan body must have the manufacturer's or NCC sticker on the body. I am not referring to the fixed plate. If there is no plate easily visible the DVSA would probably look at the tyre load for a prosecution....

Attempting a prosecution for exceeding MAM based on the tyre load index alone would be laughed out of court. The authorities would have to find the relevant trailer specifications to determine its MAM.

BUT if the trailer load did exceed the tyre rating then yes another offence has been committed of overloading the tyre which could be a "unroadworthy vehicle" There could also be an offence of not fitting correct tyres for the vehicle.

 

[Hutch]

I am sure that VOSPA or whoever checks Vehicles, will have a list of Trailers/caravans / etc. And nowadays on computer as to the weights etc. Tyre loadings !!!, Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

[Hutch]

I have heard people quote the VIN plate in the front locker of the caravan, My 2013 Coachman 560 VIP, does't have one, I have searched and it has never been there, C of C for the van states a MPTL of 1645kg so for me thats it. And that what the plate on the side of the caravan states, no axle loading , nose weight , etc. .

 

[Buckman]

I am sure that VOSPA or whoever checks Vehicles, will have a list of Trailers/caravans / etc. And nowadays on computer as to the weights etc. Tyre loadings !!!, Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Possibly with vehicles the DVSA may have a list, but probably not for trailers of which there are probably thousands of different types.

 

[Lutz]

I have heard people quote the VIN plate in the front locker of the caravan, My 2013 Coachman 560 VIP, does't have one, I have searched and it has never been there, C of C for the van states a MPTL of 1645kg so for me thats it. And that what the plate on the side of the caravan states, no axle loading , nose weight , etc. .

A statutory plate is a legal requirement. What must be displayed on that plate is very clearly defined and includes the type approval number, the noseweight limit and the respective axle limit(s). If the caravan was manufactured after whole vehicle type approval was introduced and those figures aren't shown on the plate that you are looking at, there must be another one that does.

 

[Hutch]

I have heard people quote the VIN plate in the front locker of the caravan, My 2013 Coachman 560 VIP, does't have one, I have searched and it has never been there, C of C for the van states a MPTL of 1645kg so for me thats it. And that what the plate on the side of the caravan states, no axle loading , nose weight , etc. .

A statutory plate is a legal requirement. What must be displayed on that plate is very clearly defined and includes the type approval number, the noseweight limit and the respective axle limit(s). If the caravan was manufactured after whole vehicle type approval was introduced and those figures aren't shown on the plate that you are looking at, there must be another one that does.

Lutz, My Coachman was registered 27th Feb 2013, It does not have a data plate in the front locker, I have checked all over the caravan, the data plate by the caravan door states Sno, and only MTPL and wheel nut torque's, thats it. It baffles myself.

 

[Hutch]

I have heard people quote the VIN plate in the front locker of the caravan, My 2013 Coachman 560 VIP, does't have one, I have searched and it has never been there, C of C for the van states a MPTL of 1645kg so for me thats it. And that what the plate on the side of the caravan states, no axle loading , nose weight , etc. .

A statutory plate is a legal requirement. What must be displayed on that plate is very clearly defined and includes the type approval number, the noseweight limit and the respective axle limit(s). If the caravan was manufactured after whole vehicle type approval was introduced and those figures aren't shown on the plate that you are looking at, there must be another one that does.[/quote

Lutz, My Coachman was registered 27th Feb 2013, It does not have a data plate in the front locker, I have checked all over the caravan, the data plate by the caravan door states Sno, and only MTPL and wheel nut torque's, thats it. It baffles myself.

Anyone with a Coachman of the same year 2013, do you have a data plate in the front locker. ?

 

[Buckman]

Someone posted this link on another forum. Look at section 18 as that is the reference to statutory plates which seems to contradict what is being said about the weight plate on the body of a caravan,

 

[Lutz]

Someone posted this link on another forum. Look at section 18 as that is the reference to statutory plates which seems to contradict what is being said about the weight plate on the body of a caravan,

The link only provides information about a caravan subject to an IVA. It does not apply to the vast majority that are series production caravans which are whole vehicle type approved. I would imagine that Coachman fall into that category.
The requirements for whole vehicle type approval do not include any reference where the statutory plate shall be, only that it should be attached to a part of the caravan that is not readily replacable.

 

[Buckman]

Someone posted this link on another forum. Look at section 18 as that is the reference to statutory plates which seems to contradict what is being said about the weight plate on the body of a caravan,

The link only provides information about a caravan subject to an IVA. It does not apply to the vast majority that are series production caravans which are whole vehicle type approved. I would imagine that Coachman fall into that category.
The requirements for whole vehicle type approval do not include any reference where the statutory plate shall be, only that it should be attached to a part of the caravan that is not readily replacable.

If you are the same Lutz on the other forum, it does seem that you like to muddy the waters a lot and have been shot down a few times?

 

[Damian]

The last posting by Buckman has been removed.
There is absolutely no need to resort to rude comments about other posters and their posts.
This Forum will not permit personal attacks on others for any reason.

 

[Buckman]

The last posting by Buckman has been removed.
There is absolutely no need to resort to rude comments about other posters and their posts.
This Forum will not permit personal attacks on others for any reason.

Apologies I should have said that no matter whether the information comes from a verified source, some people will still dispute it. TBH I did not think it was a personal attack as it was not meant to be one however rules are rules!

 

[Lutz]

Lutz, My Coachman was registered 27th Feb 2013, It does not have a data plate in the front locker, I have checked all over the caravan, the data plate by the caravan door states Sno, and only MTPL and wheel nut torque's, thats it. It baffles myself.

Maybe it would be worth asking Coachman where they've hidden it.

 

[Hutch]

Lutz, My Coachman was registered 27th Feb 2013, It does not have a data plate in the front locker, I have checked all over the caravan, the data plate by the caravan door states Sno, and only MTPL and wheel nut torque's, thats it. It baffles myself.

Maybe it would be worth asking Coachman where they've hidden it.

HI Lutz, I have asked them They say it "Should " be in there or nearby. I started another thread about it, Coachman Data Plate. Seems other Coachman vans don't have them in there.

 

[Simple_Life]

As far as weights and plates.

Bailey replied on the other forum that the whole vehicle approval plate found in the front locker on bulkhead is for them.
The door plate is for us the user.

This is correct.

The plate in the front locker is so a manufacturer can sell into the EU with plated evidence that the caravan and it's vehicle parts all comply with EU standards.

Where people are falling down is that within the UK there are additional rules.
The Dot has stated that for trailers less than 3500kg the manufacturer should (desirable) fit a plate in accordance to UK regulations.
These being RTA/Construction and Use regs.
If you look at the door plate, refered to by myself (Simple Life) and others as the manufacturers plate, you will see it follows the regulations as set out in C&U.

Because it's a Dot edict it is an offence for us the user to load the caravan above the manufacturers stated MTPLM, this could also invalidate your insurance and warranty.

It is misleading to assume the EU plate in the front locker is the ONLY legally enforceable legislation. The manufacturers plate within the UK is absolute. C&U regs

Simple_Life.

 

[Simple_Life]

There are many sources to validate my statement regards manufacturers plate, this one is fairly comprehensive and dated 2018.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/company-cars/2013/towing/
Further
https://www.practicalcaravan.com/advice/47679-how-to-decode-caravan-plates

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Simple life,

What you have described may be correct, but without reference to the the actual regulatory document. all you have pointed to is an opinion formed by a commercial company. I have no doubt that m Parkers are not trying hoodwink anyone on such matters, but all too often some nuance of the official documentation is not accurately reflected in third party web sites.

Even the Governments own web pages about Licence restrictions fail to accurately reflect the letter of some regulations which has led to quite some heated debates.

Often its just a word or two missing or incorrectly used, but with such things the law always rests with the primary document

Another example of where web site errors are known to arise is with outfit matching sites and services. The data they use often contains errors, You must always treat such sites with considerable caution. It usually down to human error when interpreting or transferring information.

 

[Simple_Life]

Morning Prof.

Trawling via the web Dot documentation is a difficult task.

Here is another link from another source.

https://ntta.co.uk/law/law/identification-plates
The point I won't to make is that there are more regulations in force within the UK than simply European ones.

There are 3 links all stating a caravan requires a manufacturers plate, one being from Practical Caravan themselves.

Parkers I thought a good example as it's dated 2018 and contains other useful information.

 

[Lutz]

If there is more than one regulation covering the same issue and the respective requirements conflict with one another, then there must be reference somewhere in legislation as to which regulation takes precedence. Nobody has produced any evidence that would tell us which of the two is the definitive one.
We have this issue where one plate shows one figure for MTPLM and another plate displays another. As has been said in another forum thread, there must be clarification which of the two figures applies.
An MTPLM, as the name implies, is a maximum and it must be technically justifiable. If there are two different figures then only the greater of the two can be a maximum and technically justifiable. Consequently, the lower figure cannot be an MTPLM even though it may be called that.
Besides, UK legislation, regardless which regulation one reads, requires one single statutory plate, not two statutory plates.