Caravan manufacturers-build quality and reliability

[paulthomas]

As someone who has had more than his fair share of problems with a caravan bought new in 2008, I would love to be able to access information and data related to build quality and reliability.Reading postings on other websites there does seem to be a considerable element of concern about the number of faults that we purchasers encounter when taking delivery and then living with our caravans.
It sometimes seems that the best we can hope for is "a few problems,soon put right by the dealer."Given the sort of money we are now paying up front this is unacceptable,if indeed it is the general picture.
Is there any way in which "Practical Caravan" could examine this issue on behalf of us "caravan consumers"?
It would also very helpful if the magazine could include a "build quality"paragraph when reviewing and comparing caravans.
Slightly contentious,I know,when the magazine needs advertising revenue from thos same manufacturers-but it doesn't inhibit "What Car."
Is there any chance of this issue being addressed in any meaningful way?

 

[Guest]

You may be liviing in hope. There has been very little of what one could describe as any critical comments regarding any manufacturer, apart from odd snide comments about EU ones, so i suspect in the current climate of recession, the 'modus operandi' will be to keep very quiet and hope it all passes without publishing cost cuts.

I also suspect that many people are aware of the failings of many manufacturers and this Forum has seen a fair share, even if many are edited out. However, as with many things people vote with their feet and wallets and as they all queue up to buy new vans from the same makers, one can only assume they see the positive rather than any negatives.

Ironically, one maker that has gone to the wall was Eriba Hymer and the main reason there was they made the vans so good, nobody saw any need to change to another one. Destroyed by their own success.

Our UK lot work on planned obsolescence, with a short life span, or at least that is what many owners begin to wonder. Anyone who had a BMC or British Leyland car from the 60's and 70's knows exactly what they are likely to receive, but the sales m,ean that change is unlikely. One wonders what wouldhappen if the Japanese decided to enter the caravan market??

 

[Parksy]

....I also suspect that many people are aware of the failings of many manufacturers and this Forum has seen a fair share, even if many are edited out....

I totally refute the above statement Scotch Lad.

A cursory glance back through the archives of the old forum would reveal that it is full of comments about the failings of caravan manufacturers of which none have ever been 'edited out' either by moderaors or administrators.

Posts which break the rules of the forum with regard to naming dealerships in connection with complaints have been edited or removed for legal reasons which have often been hotly debated but which are beyond our control.

I can categorically state that forum statements or comments solely about faults with caravans whether they are new or used and with regard to every caravan manufacturer (even German) have never been edited or removed to my knowledge.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Scotch Lad
Have you seen and completed Jane's form? I can't wait to hear her findings. Her post is on Our Website.
Tue, Aug 10 2010, 8:24AM
#1

Jane_374584435

Offline

Joined: 30 Jul 2010

Hi, this is just a reminder that the online consumer survey is still open.
Thank you to those of you who have already participated. For the consumer survey to be purposeful, It is important to gain a broad overview of the factors you consider to be important when purchasing a touring caravan. Click here to take survey It doesn't take long to complete. Many thanks again for your time, Jane Lynch

 

[Guest]

Parksy,

I am sure you are correct but the majority of people who buy any product associate anything to do with it to the maker's name on the front, not the place of purchase. It is also stated that any complaints an owner has is with the dealer, not the manufacturer, therefore the fact that they may be named per se in a Forum, is not really what people want. What they want is for the manufacturer to step forward and accept liability directly, as the maker of the product, and arrange any remedial work directly with any qualified dealer convenient to the owner, not just the selling dealer, who may have obtained the sale by a discounting offer, at a Show for example. Aftter all it is the customer who should have the priority, certainly if the maker wants a future sale. Dealers have a habit of coming and going and swopping brands so continuity is not always there.

If there is a fault then the owner is entitled to expect either a replacement part or a repair that puts the outfit back to its original condition. However all too often a dealer makes their own repairs, without recourse to the maker, often not really what is wanted or required.

Although our 'legal experts' outline various processes available to customers, most people would rather not have to go that route and reasonably expect a recourse from the maker.

Ironically if I buy a kettle from a shop and it fails. I take it back to the shop who either give an immediate replacement or send it to the manufacturer to fix or replace. They do not take it into the back room and make a bodge, and call it fixed.

There are certain manufacturers who have felt that listening to their customers, and sorting complaints directly where necessary, is beneficial to their business. It is a pity that this is not generic.

 

[Parksy]

Parksy,

I am sure you are correct but the majority of people who buy any product associate anything to do with it to the maker's name on the front, not the place of purchase. It is also stated that any complaints an owner has is with the dealer, not the manufacturer, therefore the fact that they may be named per se in a Forum, is not really what people want.....

....If there is a fault then the owner is entitled to expect either a replacement part or a repair that puts the outfit back to its original condition. However all too often a dealer makes their own repairs, without recourse to the maker, often not really what is wanted or required....

Although our 'legal experts' outline various processes available to customers, most people would rather not have to go that route and reasonably expect a recourse from the maker.

Ironically if I buy a kettle from a shop and it fails. I take it back to the shop who either give an immediate replacement or send it to the manufacturer to fix or replace. They do not take it into the back room and make a bodge, and call it fixed.

There are certain manufacturers who have felt that listening to their customers, and sorting complaints directly where necessary, is beneficial to their business. It is a pity that this is not generic.

We seem to agree on all of the points that you made in the post quoted above Scotch Lad.
The reason for my earlier comment was that your post implied that complaints about caravan manufacturers were edited from this forum and this is not the case.
Caravan manufacturers are regularly mentioned by name in connection with members complaints. Every legitimate caravan forum has to be circumspect about naming dealerships or other service providers, the only dfference is that on this particular forum we inform the member why their post may have been removed or altered.
No post 'naming and shaming' makers or manufacturers of caravans has ever been edited or removed for that reason to my knowledge.
Forums don't set the terms under which the sale of goods act works, the contract of sale is between a dealer and new or used caravan buyer. I'd agree that this might not be 'what people want' but we don't make the law.
I share your opinion that manufacturers may have been able to 'hide' behind the fact that they regard their cusomer as being the dealer rather than us and we have to address complaints to the dealer rather than the caravan manufacturer.
I firmly believe that widespread use of media such as internet forums with the immediacy and availability of information in real time will eventually force standards t rise to a more acceptable level throughout the touring caravan industry.
It hasn't happened yet but there are definite signs that internet opinion influences some forward thinking caravan manufacturers.
Perhaps every caravan owner and potential buyer should lobby their MP for a change in the law so that manufacturers also share the contract of sale with dealerships and customers?
It would divert attention from the economic downturn and the 'cuts' so they might even go for it :0)

 

[Guest]

Then Parksy you must surely accept that a periodical such as your 'masters', with a massive readership, would be the ideal place to start the 'crusade'?

It would be pretty easy to initiate a survey through the magazine aasking for input regarding quality, satisfaction etc from owners of both new and older vans. As they say 'name and shame'.

Personally my own van is now 5 years old and is so far in perfect health. I doubt I would buy another as by that time I suspect circumstances both in my own life, and in general will have changed to such an extent that it would not be an economic decision. That does not mean I will give up camping per se, I just see it being done in a different way.

 

[Parksy]

I don't work for Haymarket Publishing or Practical Caravan magazine Scotch Lad so what they decide to include or leave out of the aforementioned periodical is nothing to do with me.
If you feel that the magazine should launch a consumer rights crusade of some sort your point would be better addressed to those who decide these matters. It could be said though that the aforementioned periodical does champion consumer rights to some extent by giving the readers of the magazine a powerful voice through this forum.
I agree that standards need to continue to improve in the touring caravan and leisure industry and my point was that there are no posts or comments in connection with complaints about caravan manufacturers that have been edited or removed, contrary to what you wrote in your initial post.

 

[Guest]

Parksy,

It is fully accepted that you neither receive a salary or employment contract from Haymarket, more is the pity. Personally I would at least demand expenses on a par with MP's. However, as you have accepted to monitor a Forum financed solely by them and have accepted fully their restrictions or controls on what may, or may not occur, then to trying to absolve your self from any responsibility is being disengenous. Following orders is not a defence, as was seen at various famous trials throughout history.

Personally I could not care whether Haymarket decides to try and improve the industry, or not. That is up to them. I spend my money where I think it will benefit me most. If they produce a magazine that gives me the information I want, then I buy it, if not, I don't. However, to claim they are the most widely read periodical in that facet of the business, and then not use that advantage, seems to me to be a waste of resources. You state that any advice and comments should be directed to them, well, if using a Forum owned by them and monitored by them is not doing that, then maybe the title page should be changed.

Nothing personal is intended in this Post, however sitting on the fence is usually painful.

By the way just out of interest, what is the current membership of this Forum?

 

[Parksy]

Parksy,

It is fully accepted that you neither receive a salary or employment contract from Haymarket, more is the pity. Personally I would at least demand expenses on a par with MP's. However, as you have accepted to monitor a Forum financed solely by them and have accepted fully their restrictions or controls on what may, or may not occur, then to trying to absolve your self from any responsibility is being disengenous. Following orders is not a defence, as was seen at various famous trials throughout history.

Moderators get a complimentary monthly copy of Practical Caravan Magazine S.L., what more could we want except a shiny new forum which we've now got!
To be honest if more in the way of recompense was offered or accepted it would affect the impartiality of mods on this forum, the way that things stand we are not in anybody's pocket. We are grateful for the advice and support given to us by Haymarket but we try to apply the rules of the forum impartially so that everyone can continue to use it.
The rules which I will concede are set by Haymarket are no different to the rules of other comparable forums.
Mine ond other moderators responsibility is primarily to this forum and moderators are answerable to forum members and to the administrators of the forum who are Haymarket employees but not necessarily magazine staff.
I don't see myself as being 'on trial' so have no need of a defence,I'm not 'only following orders' as the defendants from Nuremberg claimed. The reason that I've taken part in this topic is to defend the forum and it's moderators against allegations of quote: 'editing out' /quote complaints against caravan manufacturers so one could argue that I'm counsel for the defence :0)

Personally I could not care whether Haymarket decides to try and improve the industry, or not. That is up to them. I spend my money where I think it will benefit me most. If they produce a magazine that gives me the information I want, then I buy it, if not, I don't. However, to claim they are the most widely read periodical in that facet of the business, and then not use that advantage, seems to me to be a waste of resources. You state that any advice and comments should be directed to them, well, if using a Forum owned by them and monitored by them is not doing that, then maybe the title page should be changed.

Nothing personal is intended in this Post, however sitting on the fence is usually painful.

By the way just out of interest, what is the current membership of this Forum?

I'd hope that the caravan industry will improve, theres certainly room for improvement. I'd like to think that forums such as this maintain some customer led pressure to improve on the caravan and leisure industry, we couldn't make things any worse if some of the posts that we all read are anything to go by.
Because I have no connection with Practical Caravan magazine other than as an interested reader I'm not qualified to comment on whether they should lead some sort of crusade to drive up standards amongst caravan manufacturers. The editorial staff of the magazine are certainly fully aware of comments made within forum posts and this particular forum allows readers of the magazine an online voice which is also heard by manufacturers.
I don't know how many members this forum currently has but I'm fairly certain that whatever the figure is now will increase with time.
I don't take forum posts personally and likewise none of my comments are meant personally S.L., in fact I rather enjoy the cut and thrust of a well mannered debate.
I'm sure that if you read through what I've written and what you have written within this thread you will see that I'm actually not sitting on the fence but have come down on the side of the forum to prove that we don't edit out complaints against caravan manufacturers.

EDIT:
I meant to add that I think that if any magazine no matter what the subject matter featured a catalogue of readers complaints about a particular product no matter what that product was my guess is that subscriptions would fall dramatically.

Who wants to sit there reading a load of complaints about shoddy caravans?.......... What's that?.........forum members?!?!

 

[Andrew_374383565]

Hello.........I don't need to defend Parksy........I am quite sure he is fully capable of defending himself and have neither the experience or time to judge........all I know, having only been involved with forums for the past 12months, is that the contributors have a wealth of knowledge and for those prepared to have an open mind, there is a lot to learn. The moderators have dealt with a number of contentious issues, (including mine) with a degree of professionalism and I can't praise this forum enough.
Forums are an excellent channel for examining all aspects of caravanning....not only quality issues and there are many good posts on the basics. The publishers do not need to get involved in many of the issues on this forum because this forum exists....thankyou Haymarket.

 

[paulthomas]

Chaps,
Thanks for all your responses.I shall certainly be following up Parksy's point re contacting local MP.
I genuinely am not a grumbler by nature,and I want our caravan industry to succeed.To do that they will need to up their game as,at the moment, they are protected by the £/Euro exchange rate.This is unlikely to last......hopefully!
I was prompted to post after suffering yet another "issue" with my 2008 caravan.Many of the issues relate to fixtures manufactured by companies other than the 'van manufacturer but my real concern relates to problems I had immediately after purchasing it brand new.
How does even the most rudimentary QC procedure allow through a van in which the tracker is incorrectly wired,the ariel signal booster is not wired up at all and the changeover valve for the internal water tank is mounted the wrong way around?
.and so on!

 

[Dustydog]

Maybe things are changing, Swift Talk forum was inundated with posts about the defective Hartel door locks. Swift had a meeting with the manufacturer and action is now being taken to remedy the situation. Whilst still not resolved as well as could be I am just happy that at last one manufacturer is prepared to kick their parts supplier up the ****.
If the other manufacturers are doing the same and looking at their own performance maybe problems like Paul's will disappear. Oh ever the optimist.LOL.

 

[Philspadders]

both manufacturers and dealers completey miss the enhanced business opportunity presented by failures.

If they are quick to respond to problems , quick to fix them and are honest with customers they will find over time that their reputation improves and sales will increase.
Its hard at first and sales may fall slightly but they do recover and they do improve.

The manufacturer / dealer that raises its game where customer service is concerned will in the long term reap massive benefits.

 

[Guest]

Well mannered debate is what makes the world go round. If everybody sat like sheep and agreed with everything placed in front of them, life would be extremely boring, and probably mankind would be extinct.

I am a traditionalist and object to change merely for the sake of change, however I also note that in the modern world if improvements do not arise, then somebody else will probably fill the void. The UK over the last 30 years had virtually abdicated all forms of industry and technology either by selling out, or by just failing to meet the market requirements. Like many I own a foreign made car and my caravan was made abroad. Not just by choice, merely that the UK could not supply what i wanted. I still believe that the UK caravan industry survives in part due to its restricted market, as most other countries prefer the hand of the van to be on the opposite side. Some EU makers have entered the UK, and do quite well, but when you look at movement the other way, it is very limited. The probelm will arise when one of the bigger EU makers decides to have a major input to this market (possibly watch Adria) and the Euro rate will drop in time, and so make their products very competitive. As with our car industry people will vote with their wallets and feet and quality and reliability are a major factor.

Personally, I feel the more 'bombs' publications such as Haymarket produce put under the seats of the UK makers, the quicker they will get leaner, meaner and better equipped to survive. Relying on a docile market is a limited term strategy.

However, on your bright side I am heading back to France early next week to see what the tail end of summer will be like on the Med. So you will all get peace as internet is a 'hit and miss' affair.. It will be interesting to see just how many Brits are joining the French and Dutch this year. I will be back in October, by then the nights will be drawing in and I will try to introduce some 'hot' topics to keep everybody warm.

Cheers

SL

 

[paulthomas]

Enjoy France Scotch Lad.We're off to Spain and Portugal for Sept and Oct-Hope the 'van holds up!

 

[paulthomas]

Whoops,sorry

 

[Guest]

Have fun and try the wine at Lidl in Spain. 6 bottles of Grand Cru for 12 euros. Can't be bad.