Challenger 560 Noseweight heavy

[johnandrew70]

Hi all
Recently bought a 2007 Swift Challenger 560, the wife and i love it, taking it about 30 miles from where we live for a week to test everything out i found that it was very nose heavy, even after making sure everything was stored under the island bed at the rear of the van it still exceeded the markings on the gauge. the only option now is the remove the gas bottle from the from locker and remove the battery from the battery box when towing which seems silly.
Has anyone else had this problem or is there something i am doing wrong?? when attached to the car i find the jockey wheel is very low and i am afraid if i drive over a sleeping policman it may damage something if the jockey wheel comes into contact with it.

Any help is appreciated.
John

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi John,
you didn't say what the reading was and wether the gauge is accurate and what tow car do you use!!.
heavy noseweight can have several causes some vans are in fact quite heavy empty, I would suggest completely emptying the van check the weight to get a base reading then take it from there. as for the low jockey wheel has it got a inside or outside clamp if it's out side you can remove it completely once hitched up to the car,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

Noseweight is a topic that arises quite often. I think you already know that as the driver of the towing vehicle it is your responsibility to ensure your outfit is road legal. Exceeding your cars or caravans static noseweight limits contravenes the construction and use regulations and you could be prosecuted.

When hitched and loaded the tow ball must sit between 350 and 420mm above the floor (measured to the center of the ball)

When measuring nose weight its important to do it correctly. Without going into all the detailed reasons why, you must ensure the nose weight of the caravan is measured with the hitch at exactly the same height from the ground as when it is hitched to the car. None of the retail nose weight gauges actually allow you to adjust the height of the measurement and none of them can offer a high degree of accuracy. Consequently I suggest using bathroom scales on a support (Caravan step with telephone directories) to set the hitch at the right height.

Now what can you do about it?. For starters you must always transport gas bottles and batteries properly secured in their designed compartments - Lecture over, so over and above the general advice to load heavy items close to the axle, its a question of rearranging the other payload items. Don't forget that if you move a 5Kg mass from the front to the rear of the caravan, that will make near a 10Kg difference at the nose.

Look carefully at what you have in your front locker, move anything you can to the rear. Don't carry more fluids than you need for the journey Consider not taking all your tinned food or heavy food with you, buy it at your destination.

As an extreme consider using your water carrier to provide ballast. A half filled carrier will be just about 20kg, and carefully placed and secured it might provide enough counter balance to help your offset.

In reality I have never found a caravan I cant satisfactorily re-trim to achieve and acceptable nose weight.

 

[johnandrew70]

thank you both for your replys, the towing car is a VW passat 2006 tdi,estate the outfit is not matched well on Towcar although reading reviews from others who tow the same weight of van with the same car as me i thought what the hell and i have to say it does pull well, the only problem is noseweight.

i will have a go at using the aquaroll as ballast under the island bed at the rear. the jockey wheel is inside the a frame and not on the outside, i have also made sure the jockey wheel sits up into the space provided but still very low.
i also wondered weather stiffer rear suspension on the car would help as the car does drop a bit when i drop the van on the back.
John

 

[ProfJohnL]

As I said, there is a set of regulations that set the proper hitch height for a towed trailer and the Passat should comply with that. 350 to 420 mm to the centre of the ball. All the caravan manufactureres are aware of this regulation and will ensure their caravan designs will allow proper clearances with the road when the hitch rides between those limits.
If the hitch when loaded rides outside of those limits then you have to consider why? Is the nose load correct is the obvious one to check for, but equally are the tyres properly inflated, or has the suspension/wheels been modified or damaged in some way.
I recall that the Passat has an 80kg max nose load limit, but confirm that with your cars handbook..
It should never be necessary to use spring assisters to correct for ride height, If the ride height is wrong then always look for the actual causes first. Also with some modern vehicles the use of aftermarket spring assisters could adversly affect the cars ESP as the sensors will recieve the wrong inputs as the car moves.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi again john,
some very good advice from the Prof there as usual, but to be honest and sorry for this blunt answer, but I don't think you fully understand the problem or how to rectify it, if the cars $rse is so low that the jockey wheel would ground over a 4in speed hump theres something radically wrong somewhere, you still have not said what the nose weight is (roughly) but it must be huge!!! or the ball is the wrong height,adding half a aquaroll to the rear of the van is not the answer, I will give you some idea, go out to the car when convienient, and open the tail gate now stand on the towball, depending on your body weight 75kg is roughly 11,stone. 10lbs see how far the rear drops, I will bet it drops no more than 30cm, I am 15stone the meriva has a max noseweight of 50kg ball travel ( 25cm) if I am right and the ball height is correct, the cars rear suspension would not benefit from spring assisters moreover and it has been said on here many times if a manufacturer of a car gives a max ball weight and maximum tow load, it should need no adaptations from standard spec,to either carry the weight or tow it!!.
don't worry too much either about comparison, sites they use standard data based on kerbweight, MTPLM, and a 85% ratio to determine the tow caracturistics of a given combination, in theory only, they do not actually attach a caravan of max weight to car and test it!!.
you really do need to get to grips with whats wrong, find it and solve it, it really is not that hard once you understand how it works,
for instance completly empty with gas, sparewheel, battery, and mover, in place my van has a nose weight of just over 100kg, after loading awning, poles, clothes, and chairs ect, in the correct place it down to 70kg that would be fine for most cars but the Meriva only has a 50kg nose limit, by removing the spare wheel and placing it on the flloor just behind the axel with the EHU cable coiled inside the dish, the noseweight is down to 45kg, and perfectly suited it is also well balanced side to side and as stable as a rock,
incidentaly and as an aside when hitched up the van is almost level and the clearance from the btm of the jockey wheel to the ground is around 10in.

 

[johnandrew70]

10 Inch would be lovely if only i was that lucky haha. i cant give you a reading as it goes right off the scale so its 100+kg the cars limit is 85kg.
the problem is with the vans design as if you look at the layout for the 560 it only has an island bed at the rear everything else in the van is forward of the axle, spare wheel is underslung at the back but everything else mover, fridge, battery, gas, water heater, and all the other standard stuff is forward of the axle making it very nose heavy, i have tried to find out swift's noseweight figure for the 2007 challenger 560 but cant seem to find them,

John

 

[FrintonMike]

John, if you have the Warranty and Service handbook it will show the noseweight for your 2007 model.
I have the 2006 handbook and it shows a noseweight for a 2006 van of 100 kg. In fact all swifts of that year were 100kg

 

[johnandrew70]

Well if it is 100kg I will be hard pushed to get 85kg haha oh well have to stay local until such a time that I buy a 4x4.
John

 

[Dustydog]

John

Are you using a simple spring type weight measure?
I have one and with one finger pressing on the drawerbar I can change the reading quite considerably.
Somewhere back in time on here is a design for a safe home made frame to be used with a decent set of bathroom scales.
I'm sure Watson John G came up with a drawing. Maybe one of our Mods can find it for you.

 

[johnandrew70]

I will look to see if i can find it on here, i am also going to try and play around with moving weight around, i was thinking of taking the cushions from front seats and putting them at the back when travelling and see what that will do we also have a large awning that we leave at home usually but might put it under the bed at the rear to give it a little weight in the rear, we only have a normal butane gas bottle in the front which is 7kg, EHU cables, and 2x 5 mtr hospipe for connecting to mains water supply. the noseweight gauge i use is a new pyramid gauge http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PYRAMID-HD-CARAVAN-TRAILER-NOSE-WEIGHT-GAUGE-NOSEWEIGHT-/170959664472?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item27cdfd7558

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mike,

I think you have misunderstood Swifts information. The 100kg referes to the maximum capacity of the caravans hitch, not what it actually weighs.

Frankly the ex-works nose weight of a caravan is of little importance as the actual noseweight of a loaded caravan is entirely dependent on how its loaded and the height of the hitch above the horizontal road surface.

John,
There are lots of people who tow Swift caravans quite successfully so I cannot conceive its a fundamental problem of the make or model, which leaves how its loaded. I cannot even think of a mechanical fault on the caravan that could result in the effect you describe.

I concur with Colin's concerns, You must get to the bottom of the caravans nose weight, and the outfits low hitch height. I am almost certain that you need to look at where you are stowing heavy items - move then towards the rear of the caravan, but do remember that batteries and gas bottles must be stored in their designated places.

 

[johnandrew70]

i am not saying the van has a machanical fault, i was merely saying the van is nose heavy because of the layout, the fact that everything is forward of the axle and the only thing behind the axle is the island bed and a small wardrobe either side,

John

 

[woodsieboy]

Hi John

I agree with pretty much with what others have said and the noseweight seems to be an issue, I just wonder whether you could check the back of the Passat as well, you say it is 2006 model so approx 7 years old,by their nature estate cars are used for carrying things, and at 7 years it may be that your rear shock absorbers could be getting tired,While changing the shock absorbers will not alter the noseweight allowance,you could find the back of the car does not sag as much. Where I differ from other comments is that on 2 previous towcars that sagged when attached to caravan ( montego estate, and rover 827) I did find that spring assisters were a big improvement when towing,when solo they did not do anything but once the van was attached the back end was noticeably firmer.Perhaps if you see somebody else with the same model of Challenger you could ask them about the noseweight.

 

[SteveW77]

Hi John

I agree with pretty much with what others have said and the noseweight seems to be an issue, I just wonder whether you could check the back of the Passat as well, you say it is 2006 model so approx 7 years old,by their nature estate cars are used for carrying things, and at 7 years it may be that your rear shock absorbers could be getting tired,While changing the shock absorbers will not alter the noseweight allowance,you could find the back of the car does not sag as much. Where I differ from other comments is that on 2 previous towcars that sagged when attached to caravan ( montego estate, and rover 827) I did find that spring assisters were a big improvement when towing,when solo they did not do anything but once the van was attached the back end was noticeably firmer.Perhaps if you see somebody else with the same model of Challenger you could ask them about the noseweight.

 

[SteveW77]

Shock absorbers do not alter the ride height, only the reaer springs do that.Shock absrbers do exactly what it says in the name, the absorb shock, or in other words the rebound from the spring deflection.If the rear end sags, you need new springs. Steve W

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi Woodsieboy
I have the car booked into VW on friday to have the dual mass flywheel checked as i am experiancing juddering, i will ask them to check the shocks and springs etc while they have it.
i cant do anything with the vans nose weight until the weekend as the van is in storage.
as i said previously i will store the awning under the bed at the rear instead of storing it at home maybe that will help also put the front cushions either side of the island bed might help.

 

[Sproket]

John

Are you using a simple spring type weight measure?
I have one and with one finger pressing on the drawerbar I can change the reading quite considerably.
Somewhere back in time on here is a design for a safe home made frame to be used with a decent set of bathroom scales.

You mean like this one i made a few years ago out of a old towball & a bit of box section some threaded bar to adjust the ball height & a set of cheap Ikea bathroom scales ?

 

[johnandrew70]

that is brilliant, its just a shame i cant just knock one up like that, you ever thought about making them to order minus the scales of course

 

[johnandrew70]

i forgot to say our scales are Glass

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Hi Woodsieboy
I have the car booked into VW on friday to have the dual mass flywheel checked as i am experiancing juddering, i will ask them to check the shocks and springs etc while they have it.
i cant do anything with the vans nose weight until the weekend as the van is in storage.
as i said previously i will store the awning under the bed at the rear instead of storing it at home maybe that will help also put the front cushions either side of the island bed might help.

hi John,
have you tried the standing on the ball trick yet!! honestly it will tell you if there is anything wrong with the springs you dont need a mechanic to do that, ps, thats probably all he will do anyway plus jump up and down a bit!!!.
couple of other points, spring assisters "doughnut type used on coil springs" do not stiffen the suspension only stonger springs do that, what they do do is stop the suspension bottoming out by restricting the free length of the spring, if you think about it is obvious because the doughnut only covers one turn of the coil so all the rest are unaltered, they can be of benefit when carrying heavy weights (more than the average noseweight) on bumpy roads with a car that has soft suspension as a design element, like woodsieboy's rover 827 or the early mondeo's where bottoming out is likely,
secondly, wether you like it or not the legal requirements regading noseweight is that it must not be more than the lowest figure given for the combo you wish to tow, swifts maximum drawbar weight is 100kg but the cars as you state is 85kg so the maximum noseweight allowed for your outfit is 85kg maximum, fullstop, towing with anything higher is illegal, even if just towing it home from storage, that is why I said you need to get it sorted, this needs doing irespectitve of the cars suspension, and is in fact a completly different issue, you may find once the noseweight is reduced the effect on the cars rear will be better.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I cannot stress enough that no car should ever need spring assistors.The manufacture will have done all their calculations and tetsts to determine the correct spring rates for their cars and provided the trailers nose laod and MTPLM is within the car manufactuers limits the car will provide enough support to carry the hitch at the correct ride height. If the ride height is wrong, then the cars suspension may have been damaged or worn and should be corrected using proper OEM parts.
Aftermarket spring assistors are never NEEDED they only serve to make a vehicle look cosmetically different. The same applies to aftermarket Self Leveling suspension systems. Such system do not integrate with the cars inbuilt systems and may compromise safety of many modern cars.

The 2006 Passat does have ESP and the use of spring assistors will affect the sensors the ESP system uses to determine the loads and stresses the car is experiencing. Spring assistors will reduce the degree of suspension movement under any given load and that may prevent the ESP from applying the correct degree of correction when things start to get close to the edge.

 

[Dustydog]

John

Are you using a simple spring type weight measure?
I have one and with one finger pressing on the drawerbar I can change the reading quite considerably.
Somewhere back in time on here is a design for a safe home made frame to be used with a decent set of bathroom scales.

You mean like this one i made a few years ago out of a old towball & a bit of box section some threaded bar to adjust the ball height & a set of cheap Ikea bathroom scales ?

Well done Sir Sproket.

It had to be a Woosie

 

[johnandrew70]

i am trying to upload a photo of the van on the car, the back end of the car doesnt seem low but the nose of the van still looks low.

How do you upload a pic ?? i clicked on insert/edit image but it wont allow me to browse my own pics???

 

[johnandrew70]

this is a pic of my outfit, as you can see the jockey wheel is very low.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64070041/2013-04-20 10.39.15.jpg
i couldnt upload image to here so you need to click the link.

Moderators Edit:
Click Here to see Sprocket's guide on how to post photos to the forum.