Challenger 560 Noseweight heavy

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Mar 14, 2005
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I have a slightly smug smile, because at last other caravanners are actually realising the realities of how inadequate available nose weight gauges are. Quite simply to accurately measure the nose weight the height of the trailers hitch must be at the same height from the ground as when it is hitched to the tow vehicle. Measure it at any other height and you are not recording the true nose weight.

The reasons for this requirement stems from the fact that every trailer must produce a nose weight which is created by the effective position of the trailers center of gravity just forward of the main axle. The COG in a caravan is always located above chassis, so if the nose height changes (i.e. tilting the caravan) the horizontal for and aft position of the COG relative to the axle which affects the nose weight. This is relatively easy to understand for a single axle caravan , but it is far more complex with twin axles where there is an interaction between the suspension of the two axles which can change the nose weight by a substantial amount in only a few millemeters of hitch height adjustment.

Now it is a legitimate question about how accurate do you need to be? It is unclear how precise the authorities are when they look at nose weight, but the regulations are clear that the prescribed nose weight capacity of a tow bar is a limit and it is an offence to exceed it. So despite any margin of error a gauge has, it must always ensure you remain below the tow bar limit.

So it is important to be able to set the measurement height.

It is well within the capabilities of manufactures to make a weight measuring device with a consistent weight measuring accuracy of +/-1% or 2Kg in 100Kg. I would suggest that is a reasonable degree of accuracy for this type of measurement.

Some commercial nose weight gauges have substantially under read a trailers actual nose weight, One must also assume that some gauges must over read, but whether its the same margin of error or not, regardless its scandalous that manufactures are allowed to sell gauges with such little accuracy yet are sold to help users stay legal.

There is an alternative commercial type of nose weight gauge that sits on top of the cars tow hitch. Even these alter the height of the hitch when measuring, and consequently they do not measure the exact nose weight. However one manufacturer claims they have compensated for this height and the corrected result is displayed.

Now this claim is tenuous, because the factors that determine the rate of change of nose weight with change in hitch height are not same for every caravan. So again a manufacture is making an generalised assumption. To be fair the difference may be relatively small between caravans, but never the less it is still a compromise.

The same manufacture recognises the problem because they tell users of the device not to use it on TA caravans. They have another model to cope with the dynamics of TA's

The point is that using a pair of bathroom scales and a well designed support reasonably accurate nose weight measurements can be made without spending a fortune on a special product with just one use.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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colin-yorkshire said:
hi Kev,
one enquiry and a question?
enquiry first. would the patent on Sprockets dodah include materials used!! reason for asking I made a simillar device 20years ago using 2x2 wood battens and a 2in newel post to sit the hitch into, it was made for a boat trailer that did not have a jockey wheel, the idea was to stabilise and raise the front of the attached boat slightly nose up so all the rain water drained out of the blige plug, only difference was the hight adjstment and a set of b/room scales. just asking!!
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now the question which gauge do you have!! mines a Millenco supposed to be calibrated and conforms to BS standard 7961 now I know because of the zero adjustment bit they cannot be 100% but 27kg is a lot,mines near 5kg,
I have done the alternative test ( bathroom scales and step) difference 5kg but it has to be said though that as either could be out it is impossible to know which one, I did do one other test and that is with a 60kg spring balance hanging from the rafters once the vans noseweight was reduced to 45kg, reading 48kg, so another 3kg difference. making 8kg in all from the lightest to the heaviest, but nowhere near the 27kg you got,
once a base line of 45kg was found I painted a white line on the gauge where ever it sat, and use this to check the weight with as it's easier than trying to read the numbers.

Hi Colin, 5 years ago when I was wet behind the ears i purchased a yellow gauge thinking they were all the same make
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The one I have isnt even branded or even stamped with a BS number! So there I think lies the problem, however that said
they are still availible to buy.
I also did the same as you by marking the guage at 80kg and also at 90kg with black permenent marker.

Ps You could race sprocket to the patent office
smiley-smile.gif
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Prof John L said:
I have a slightly smug smile, because at last other caravanners are actually realising the realities of how inadequate available nose weight gauges are. Quite simply to accurately measure the nose weight the height of the trailers hitch must be at the same height from the ground as when it is hitched to the tow vehicle. Measure it at any other height and you are not recording the true nose weight.

Prof the experiment I did was carried out at the same height so the readings were as far as I am concerned comparible,
however when I load and hitch up on Friday evening I will be able to get the height/reading more accurate.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hi all,
thanks Kev I understand now
smiley-smile.gif
and the 27kg difference makes sense, BTW I will not be racing Sprocket to the patent office as I have lost the "plot" sorry I mean plans. I could make another one in about 10mins that is if I could ever find another 2in victorian newel post to use
smiley-embarassed.gif
.

I do like Prof John L's little renditions very heart warming and informative, however on the subect of noseweight anyones guess is only as good as the steps taken to test the results. the more the tests the more accurate the guess will be, while it is true that regulations set the parameters, the dynamics involved are so complex NASA could not get it 100% correct, the question is does it matter, providing one does the best one can to ensure that neither the towball or hitch are overloaded, no I dont think it does.

the Prof wrote "It is unclear how precise the authorities are when they look at nose
weight, but the regulations are clear that the prescribed nose weight
capacity of a tow bar is a limit and it is an offence to exceed it. So
despite any margin of error a gauge has, it must always ensure you
remain below the tow bar limit. this is correct exept that the trailer hitch also has a limit and this must not be exeeded either, while it is true that in most cases this will be higher than the towball maximum it is a factor and must be considered,

what always puzzles me when reading the towing instuctions of a particular car in the owners handbook is when it states " the maximum towball load is ***kg this must not be exeeded however one should aim for a weight as close to the maximum as possible", Ok right so how close is CLOSE 1%, 3% or 10% given the error margings of any method used to measure it in the first place. common sense would assume this to be 10% and this is what I allways aim for, 10% under whichever weight is the lowest. on the Meriva this is 45kg, in the OP's case 76.5kg not 82kg but others may not agree.

in the end it is down to whatever method one is happy with be it a uncalibrated set of bathroom scales or a noseweight gauge with lines on it for sure none of them will be right, all the time, every time.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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colin-yorkshire said:
........... the question is does it matter, providing one does the best one can to ensure that neither the towball or hitch are overloaded, no I dont think it does...............

Hello Colin

There is much in your last post I can agree with, but I can't agree with the part quoted above.

Like it or not the tow bar has a limit which is recognised by the regulations and the law. Consequently taking a nonchalant approach to compliance is in my view simply not acceptable. Guesses about nose weight are rarely accurate. This is especially concerning as you point out that we are often working close to the tow bars upper limit which means any guess that underestimates sets up the driver with a potential fine and points on their licence.

Then there is the possible damage that overloading may cause the vehicle.

You should always take steps to understand the accuracy of any measurement device, and then allow for its error when using it.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hello Prof,
I think what we have here is a miss-interpretation of the information provided, the quote you disagree with is taken out of context from the the whole ethos of what I was tyring to explain, this is easily understandable, if one remembers that unlike you and others on the forum I have no engineering background only 40+ years of experience, and sometimes from a technical perspective may seem at odds with the proffesional way of thinking!.
However if you read my posts in this thread carefully with this in mind I think you will find we are saying exactly the same thing put differently. to make things clearer.
No noseweight gauge yet made is accurate all have errors, agreed.
No maximum limits on either towbar or hitch must be exeeded. agreed.
Only by testing the noseweight gauge by other means, (the more the better) can you establish the nature of the error. agreed.
A safe margin must be allowed to compensate for the error. agreed.
what I don't agree with is the assumtion that someone without a science degree can rationally work out what the safe margin is without going through reams of technical data and legistlation to put forward a view,
what I do know is what works and what doesn't! painting a line on a gauge where the noseweight should be and ignoring the readings, so it is the same every time, works, especialy after and I wrote this "common sense would assume this to be 10% and this is what I allways aim for, 10% under whichever weight is the lowest".if this is not enough to ensure a SWL on all the components and comply with any relevent legistlation. then I give up!!!
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Just an update, all loaded and hitched up ready to go in the morning nose weight at 89 kgs
Removed cleaning materials from front locker, PC mags from front of van about 25 of them!!! emptied the water heater.
Juggled a few things around and hey presto I'm a happy bunny
smiley-smile.gif
 
Apr 28, 2011
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Gagakev said:
Just an update, all loaded and hitched up ready to go in the morning nose weight at 89 kgs
Removed cleaning materials from front locker, PC mags from front of van about 25 of them!!! emptied the water heater.
Juggled a few things around and hey presto I'm a happy bunny
smiley-smile.gif

Enjoy Kev
smiley-wink.gif
 
Apr 20, 2009
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johnandrew70 said:
Gagakev said:
Just an update, all loaded and hitched up ready to go in the morning nose weight at 89 kgs
Removed cleaning materials from front locker, PC mags from front of van about 25 of them!!! emptied the water heater.
Juggled a few things around and hey presto I'm a happy bunny
smiley-smile.gif

Enjoy Kev
smiley-wink.gif

Thanks John, we certainly did enjoy the area, loaded van for return journey got the scales out and hey presto loaded exactly to the same 89kg
Copied Sprocket's design with a little modification with screw thread at the bottom to take it apart.
IMG_0958_zps67d58865.jpg

IMG_0959_zpsb82c26ec.jpg

IMG_0960_zps02a593d5.jpg
 
Apr 28, 2011
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Gagakev said:
johnandrew70 said:
Gagakev said:
Just an update, all loaded and hitched up ready to go in the morning nose weight at 89 kgs
Removed cleaning materials from front locker, PC mags from front of van about 25 of them!!! emptied the water heater.
Juggled a few things around and hey presto I'm a happy bunny
smiley-smile.gif

Enjoy Kev
smiley-wink.gif

Thanks John, we certainly did enjoy the area, loaded van for return journey got the scales out and hey presto loaded exactly to the same 89kg
Copied Sprocket's design with a little modification with screw thread at the bottom to take it apart.
IMG_0958_zps67d58865.jpg

IMG_0959_zpsb82c26ec.jpg

IMG_0960_zps02a593d5.jpg

You need to get to Dragons Den with that setup
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Looking good, Glad you enjoyed your time away,
 

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