Challenger 560 Noseweight heavy

[xtrailman]

I have a nose heavy Valencia.
Two things you can do, put the mover behind the axle, that will lift about 7kg from the nose weight, check that the mover can work there, not all movers can, my Riech comfort is happy there.

Other thing is to remove the spare wheel and put that under the rearbed, but it needs securing, i used the boss of the carrier.
also can you remove the fold up table, and put that behind the axle, dont forget the mains lead, and steady winder.

I would make 80kg your target, and if the rear of the car drops over 1" with the caravan hitched, then fit rubber doenuts, i've left them on my cars in the past permanently, i find they give better handling.
Any heavy items in the car try and place them behind the seats, assuming there are only two of you.
We arnt burdened with a awning, don't use one anymore.

 

[Brum1]

Many people in answer to this question have recommended that heavier items are moved behind the axle to beneath the fixed island bed, such distribution of mass will have an unwanted effect on the overall handling of the caravan. In the event of a slight sway, the pendelum effect of the rear mass would make matters worse.

 

[Dustydog]

this is a pic of my outfit, as you can see the jockey wheel is very low.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64070041/2013-04-20 10.39.15.jpg
i couldnt upload image to here so you need to click the link.

Moderators Edit:
Click Here to see Sprocket's guide on how to post photos to the forum.

John

VW do make two versions of a heavy duty spring . Maybe this is what you need with VW recommended Bilstein heavy duty shocks.

The VW dealer should also be able to tell you if any adjustments to the ESP etc are needed. Your pic looks like the rear has almost bottomed out!

 

[johnandrew70]

i work for a VW dealer and have spoken to the workshop controller, he says spring assistors could be the way to go but still looking to transfer the weight back under the fixed island bed, Iknow this is not the ideal solution as suggested earlier but with the layout there is nowhere else to store items, What i want to know is if you are not to put heavy items at the rear of the van how do caravan manufacturers manage when putting the kitchen and washroom at the rear?? surely the weight of the fridge, cooker and toilet would make the van really heavy on the rear end?
i did move a few things around this weekend but didnt get chance to measure the noseweight as the OH was with me, and not sure is its a woman thing but she is not bothered by noseweights etc

so i will have to *** over to storage next weekend on my own and see if the 20kg weight of the awning and poles have made a difference under the island bed instead of the cupboard in our flat

.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

looking at the continuing correspondence about your problem, I sense that people are ignoring the cause and offering work round solutions. These mask rather than cure the problem.

Both VW and Swift are fully aware of the EU regulations concerning tow ball loading and heights, (350 to 420 mm) They will not have produced models that cannot comply with this requirement, so you really do need to discover the root cause of your problem.

First real question is 'do you really have a problem?. In other words does the loaded towball sit outside of the EU's height limit?

From your picture it certainly looks low, but until you actually measure it how de we know.

If your nose is too low when loaded and hitched (i.e. less than 350mm from ground to centre of towball) then something is wrong with your set up. Its no use ignoring the facts by modifying the car you must address the real cause.

Get out there and measure it!

The most likely reason is an overloaded nose weight in the caravan, but it could also be excess load in the car, under inflated tyres or damaged suspension or any combination of these.

If the nose weight is too high, which you indicate may be the case, then you MUST rearrange the loading within the caravan to bring the nose weight below the car manufacturer's limit. Remember If you are over weight then you are illegal! and can invalidate your insurance.

If the nose height is still too low even with an in range nose load, then something must be wrong with the car. Get it checked out and repaired. Do not mask the symptom by altering spring rates.

It is also important to understand that if you up-rate the cars suspension, it does up-rate the cars load carrying and nose load limits. These are set in the cars type approval documents and cannot be altered and will be values used by the authorities if you are stopped or are involved in an incident.

As for concerns about the 'Pendulum effect' suggested by Brum, It's perfectly true that moving any mass(weight) within the length of the caravan will affect vans moments of inertia. The general advice about keeping heavy object close to the axle is sound, but as in your case you are only concerned with perhaps a few tens of Kg, then the relative effect on stability of the caravan should be marginal. If moving an item does make the outfit feel unsafe, then I suggest the outfit was border line for stability before the load change.

Getting the proper nose weight is not rocket science, it simply requires careful loading of the caravan. It must be possible as there are other caravanners with the same make and model who can manage it even with only a 75kg towball limit, and who have towed quite happily.

 

[johnandrew70]

i take on everything you say Prof, and yes you are right there must be a way of getting the noseweight down.
The Abbey gts 420 of the same year is also the same as my van and i can see that owners of that model have also had problems getting to a reasonable noseweight, the problem is with the layout of the van and that the only place to put weight to bring noseweight up is at the back under the bed yet i am being told that i cannot do this

.
the noseweight is enough to push the gauge right down past the 100kg markings yet all i have in the front locker is 1x 7kg gas bottle.

John

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi Prof, " to distinguish between John's"
I absolutely agree but the OP "John" seems reluctant to grasp the nettle in order to sort it, but would rather tinker around the edges

to find some sort of compromise not realising that there is NO compromise on a legal requirement. obviously something is wrong but what!!!.
in my honest opinion given the type approval by VAG. if the nose weight is correct and the tow bar is type approved, the ride height of ball coupling must be correct, (unless there is something radically wrong with the rear springs) a simple test would establish this,
correct caravan loading is paramount, and as you say not rocket science, if I can get 60kg off the nose on a 4mtr van any one can!
in answer to Jonh's last post ie rear bed, sorry mate thats not strictly true is it, I dont know the exact layout of the challenger, http://www.swift-caravan.co.uk/swift_challenger_570.html but there must some cupbords/spaces behind the axel even on the floor where items could be placed "what about the toilet 5ltrs of rinse water (would take 5kg off the nose) ect,
to be honest If I had the same problem and could not solve it I would have been back to the dealer or on to swifts customer services to find out why the nose was so heavy and how they recommend it is reduced.
there is of course one blatantly obvious senario and that is that this particular van is not suitable for that particular towcar due to the differences experienced, it does not happen often but it does make one wonder,

 

[Dustydog]

John OP see this link post 9.
http://www.passatworld.com/forums/42-volkswagen-passat-b5-discussion/242419-99-1-8t-heavy-duty-rear-springs.html
It seems VW themselves make stronger springs for the Passat. Ask yourself why they do that

I quote part below:-
What you are looking for is either the 1BB spring (heavy duty suspension) or the 1BF (heavy duty for permanent rear loading). The 1BF will make the back end high if you're not always loaded. If you look in the trunk where the spare tire is you should see a small sticker with codes (sometimes its in the owners manual as well). You'll see codes like OJC , OJD, OJF 1BA....etc these are the rear axel springs. Tell the dealer you want the same code example OJC except get the 1BB spring unless you want the big daddy 1BF spring.
Assuming you have fully followed the Prof's and Colin's guide on the Caravan itself then it seems to me your car springs may be "tired" or perhaps were originally the weakest version available.

 

[johnandrew70]

This is the layout of my van, http://www.leisureshopdirect.com/classifieds/touring-caravans/advert/Swift-Challenger-560/31183/

also the link about the vw passat suspension is for an old model, my passat is the newer model, 2006 to 2010, i will ask in work about stiffer spring.
i know the legal side of things when it comes to nose weight, after all if i wasnt bothered by it we would not have this discussion.
as far as cupboard space goes there are wordrobes either side of the bed and also overhead lockers but its right at the back of the van,
so i am allowed to put weight back there or not, its back to the same old thing where by people will come back saying "you cant put anything back there" as it will make the outfit unstable.
this is the point i am trying to make, I was always told that you should put heavy items over the axle and lighter stuff either side and featherweight stuff further away?? so when it comes to my layout where everything is at the front and nowhere above the axle to store heavy items there only leaves the rear bed storage, which is way behind the axle. the Alko hitch has a rating of 100kg max noseweight so it shoukld be below that in any case which is why when buying the van i didnt think i woulkd have trouble with noseweight.
john

 

[Parksy]

thank you both for your replys, the towing car is a VW passat 2006 tdi,estate the outfit is not matched well on Towcar although reading reviews from others who tow the same weight of van with the same car as me i thought what the hell and i have to say it does pull well, the only problem is noseweight.............

Perhaps the noseweight issue is one of the reasons why your outfit is not matched well on Towcar, John

Before you think about spending money on spring assistors, new heavy duty springs etc check the simple things, but do it correctly.
As others have stated earlier, you need to correctly measure the height of your towball from the ground on absolutely level ground with your vehicle laden, but there is some confusion over the definition of 'laden'. Click Here to read an explanatory guide on measuring noseweight from Witter Towbars.
If the towball height is correct, between 350mm and 420mm, and the hitch coupling is between 385 to 455mm with the trailer in the ‘laden’ condition, a different figure for towball height, when hitched up on dead level ground (see the Witter guide) use trial and error to alter the noseweight, but there are factors which will affect the noseweight reading.
How accurate is your noseweight gauge?
Most of the available telescopic sprung models are notoriously inaccurate, and they do not measure the noseweight at the laden height of the tow hitch (see Witter guide) so the noseweight reading may well be meaningless even though the caravan may look nose down under tow.
If you measure the noseweight very accurately by using a calibrated noseweight gauge with the hitch at it's laden towing height and it's still too heavy you could try moving heavier items like the awning and poles further back while they are still over the axle. There is room in the passageway toward the fixed bed to move them without risking a pendulum effect by overloading the rear end. A relatively minor shift of heavy items rearwards can have a significant effect on the fulcrum position of the caravan, and therefore the noseweight.
The measurement of noseweight is not and never will be an exact science John.
Every small variation in ride height, and variations in the angle between tow car and trailer, caused by uneven road surfaces, gradients or sloping ground will alter the nose weight.
The best that you can hope for is not to exceed the maximum when every condition for correct and accurate measurement has been met, but really accurate noseweight measurement is difficult to achieve, which is why we never see forum reports of prosecutions brought about solely through excessive noseweight.
How many times have you seen caravanners who are about to depart from sites check their noseweight before they go?
No?
Neither have I

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi johnandrew70,
we are all here trying to help, exessive noseweight is something raised on the forum quite often and in most cases usuallly solved with effort, while some of the replies may a first seem a little terse or contradictory it has to be said sometimes,
there is a wealth of knowlege on the forum from experienced members both in the practical and technical departments and is the main reason most of us joined, opinions may differ slightly this is understandable but when posters say you need to get to grips with your problem it is from experience and meant as friendly advice only, a out of specification unit could be a dangerous illegal or unstable unit, never take things on face value.
in my honest opinion you did that from day one, assuming the standard noseweight from the factory would be as stated on the plate this is not the case, and one of the first things done at the dealers when picking up the van was to get him to test the noseweight of the empty van before attaching it to the car, as the driver you are responsible for the suitability and legality of the unit you drive and it would have given a base line from which to work from.
you said "i know the legal side of things when it comes to nose weight, after all
if i wasnt bothered by it we would not have this discussion. this may be true however the crux of the matter is in another thread dated may 6th 10.05pm you wrote "
We spent this weekend in the van and have found the creaking not so bad
so think different types of ground surface may have something to do with
it. this means seeing as how the problem still exists you are prepared to use the van with a noseweight far in exess of the maximum designed for the car and tow bar. there is no other way of saying this but thats illegal mate!. and unsafe.
you really do need to get this sorted before using the van again, how! may be more problematic and you may have to get down to basics to solve it.
it seems to me you may have two different problems although seperate could be linked, one is the low state of the car suspension on tow and the other is the van,
take the car first while all the advice on changing springs ect may be relevent put this aside for now, given that you have towed with this car before and the other van was fine, I doubt it developed a sagging bum overnight

but is possible.
this leaves the van, I have looked at all data I can find and nowere does it state the ex works noseweight only the maximum,
so given this and the fact you did not do it before, completely empty the van, and check the weight to get a base line, now add your user payload one at a time priodicaly checking the difference and moving stuff around for the best distribution,
note, looking at the photos inside and out I would estimate the axel is roundabout where the sink is! so the toilet/shower and cooker would be slightly behind so half a aquaroll stood on the bathroom floor may help, also you asked if it was ok to load under the bed well the answer is you may have to!! but put stuff towards the foot nearer the middle of the van, it should be well possible to achive 80kg, the pendulem effect so spoken about is real but would only happen if all the weight was at the back and right on the front as the weight would then oscillate around the wheels, make sure the tyres are at the correct pressure as this will reduce the effect.
once the noseweight is correct then you can hitch it to the car to see what effect it has, if it is not much better then look at improving the suspension but I will bet most of the sag will have gone at the very least now the unit would be legal to use,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

Who is telling you you can't use the underbed store for heavy items?

Who ever it is, have they defined what is a heavy item? and have they defined what they expect to happen? what evidence do they have to support their contention?

I'm sorry but such comments are not helpful and in many cases they are simply reiterating what has become a caravanners mantra. They are also likely to tell you you cant have a ratio in excess of 85%, and that the caravan should be level when towing, and that nose weight should be measured with the caravan level otherwise your caravan towing will suffer dire consequences!

When people justify a particular stance by sayings its 'traditional', then it simply means they can't be bothered to look at the facts and the underlying principles and science.

It is certainly true that moving heavy items towards the extreme ends of a trailer will potentially degrade the trailers overall stability, but its a question of degree. Now lets put this into perspective. Some one has already pointed to the fact that some designs of caravan place the kitchen at the end. This include some quite weighty items such as the fridge cooker and oven, crockery and pan store. I'll bet that these represent a much greater weight at the extreme end than you need to consider moving to get you nose weight down. Yet these caravans seem to tow quite satisfactorily.

Now I'm not suggesting becoming blase about such things, as always it requires due care and attention.

Parksy,
Your link to the Witter site is very useful, it is nice to find a manufactures site that in my opinion provides an excellent and accurate interpretation of the regulations. Very useful.

 

[Surfer]

BTW if fitting spring assistors, new heavy duty springs etc these are modifications that need to be declared to whoever insures the motor vehicle.

 

[johnandrew70]

Firstly the insurance issue with fitting springs etc is not an issue as the OH works for the insurers

and i have already been down that route just in case it had to be done, the car is fine though all checked out today at work although they did say that they do heavy duty springs but i will check the van before going down that route.

Prof you are a legend and thank you for your reply, the bit about the end kitchen in some vans especially, this is what i have been trying to say all along, when you say who says not to load heavy items anywhere but on or near the axle i have to quote the latest issue of the PC mag page 142, and the swift handbook who also say the same, but as you say caravan manufacturers say not to do this but then bring a van out with most of the weight at the far rear thus contrdicting themselves.

I have to admit to towing the van without forst checking the noseweight, we drove about 30 miles to a site and stayed for a week, it was while away i bought a noseweight gauge and tested it then finding it was quite heavy, So yes i put my hands up to it, Guilty your honour.
what i will say is that the car still towed the van really well and felt more stable than the old van (lighter),
i know the car and van do not match on the website for an 85% match but it is still within VW's legal towing limit.also when i said in a different posting about how the floor didnt creak so much on different ground surfaces i meant that its different from the storage area to being on a pitch (storage is at a holiday park so no driving on the road).

As the caravan is in Storage i will have to wait until saturday before i can check things out a bit maybe pull it out onto one of the Rally fields where it is flat and taest the noseweight after moving things about, i am also at some point going to get rid of the 7kg butane bottle for a calor lite to save 5kg of weight at the front, its a shame they dont make lightweight leisure batterys.
I know everyone is trying to help and i thank you all for that.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John

My Wyoming has a large fixed bed at the back with toilet bathroom behind.

No where in the Bailey manual does it say don't store anything under the cavernous bed and wet locker.

Surely in it's simplistic form the caravan is a " see saw" and still governed by the Law of Moments. We pack stacks under the bed with no adverse effect on handling but running with a nose weight about 105 kgs.
Logically if the Swift Group didn't want you to use the under bed space it would have been made inaccessible.

If you haven't done so why not fill up the underbed space and experiment. Maybe the problem isn't as bad as we've all been discussing.
BTW, fully loaded I've felt the tail wag. Why should it?

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi Dustydog.
Thanks for the reply, i intend to get to the bottom of it on saturday weather permitting, i have since dropped the awning in under the bed which with the poles weigh around 20kg which may be enough to reduce the noseweight. if its not enough i will move the cushions from the front seats and put them either side of the bed.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

It is certainly true that moving heavy items towards the extreme ends of a trailer will potentially degrade the trailers overall stability, but its a question of degree. Now lets put this into perspective. Some one has already pointed to the fact that some designs of caravan place the kitchen at the end. This include some quite weighty items such as the fridge cooker and oven, crockery and pan store. I'll bet that these represent a much greater weight at the extreme end than you need to consider moving to get you nose weight down. Yet these caravans seem to tow quite satisfactorily.

hi Prof,
mine is such a caravan, wetroom, end kitchen, cooker, fridge all at the back plus heater and wardrobe above axel, with only the battery and waterheater in front, and yes it tows beautifully WHY?? well I suspect it's got something to do with the axel not being in the middle of the van!! it is set towards the rear by over half a meter,

this is because Bailey (god bless them) used the same Alko 1300kg chassis for all vans 460 and under with the rear ladder section retracted to suit,
the offset must be significant because with full gas bottle sparewheel and EHU cable, in front locker and nothing else in the van the noseweight is 107kg, no other van in the range exept the 380, has the end kitchen layout, 400 and above has the bathroom at the rear,and the kitchen in the middle, some design Guru at bailey must have thought this out surely, to avoid any instability.

 

[Brum1]

Totally agree that caravan designs don't help when it comes being able to distribute an even payload.
I had concerns with the layout of a previous caravan (Fleetwood Heritage 640CB) but many current manufacturers use the same layout.

Forward of the axles were pretty much even (side to side) but from the axles rearward it had the fixed double bed and wardrobe on the offside with nothing but a shower cubicle on its nearside.
With a full wardrobe and under bed storage, the offside wheels must have carried a much heavier load compared to the nearside.

Having said that, it towed without problems.

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi Brum, i had a look at the layout and see what you mean, its funny when we went looking for a newer van we looked at plenty of vans and it didnt dawn on us that weight distribution would be so hard to get right, I checked the noseweight on our old Abbey once when i bought it, it was spot on with all our belongings in and never had to worry about moving weight around. the challenger is a different story as its nose heavy before i even put anything in it so we have to load the rear end up with the full awning etc. just imagine if we didnt have the awning etc i guess we would need to visit Jewsons for some concrete blocks

 

[WatsonJohnG]

John

Are you using a simple spring type weight measure?
I have one and with one finger pressing on the drawerbar I can change the reading quite considerably.
Somewhere back in time on here is a design for a safe home made frame to be used with a decent set of bathroom scales.

You mean like this one i made a few years ago out of a old towball & a bit of box section some threaded bar to adjust the ball height & a set of cheap Ikea bathroom scales ?

I knew it wasn't me

I used to put an axle stand on the bathroom scale and adjust the axle stand height plus the scales were set to zero
Now I put the nose weight gauge on the trolley jack and set it so that the caravan is at the same attitude as when towing

 

[johnandrew70]

hi guys
Ihave been over to the caravan today to once again have a play with the nose weight.
i removed everything from the front locker, and with awning etc just to the rear of the axle i was expecting something amazing to happen, and it did , it flattenned the nose weight gauge again, now with the van emty at the front i was able to lifr the jockey wheel off the ground by hand but when i use the gauge it flattens it also with the gauge on the ground i can maually push it down myself with 2 hands just pass the 75kg mark, would this suggest the gauge is up the spout?? not tried the bathroom scales as i dont own any except glass ones.
Your thoughts?????

John

 

[Parksy]

If you're using a Milenco bog standard noseweight gauge the chances are that it will be innacurate because they are not calibrated.
To be honest, imho bathroom scales are not much better, the cheaper ones vary quite a bit.
Don't forget that the hitch height has to be the same as it is with the car and caravan loaded and hitched up even if you used a calibrated noseweight gauge like This One

 

[ProfJohnL]

This is getting tedious.
We keep being given incomplete bits of information and being asked for opinions. Despite offering what I hope is clear advice, the OP seems reluctant(or unable) for some reason to face the necesity to do the checks

John ! You need to establish the facts. What does the nose weight weigh with the hitch at the same height as when it coupled to the car? What is the height of the coupled hitch?

Only when these facts are established can you know what your facing, or how far away from your target you are.

How to measure nose weight'
The measurement must be carried out on a level horizontal surface, as slopes will affect the measurement.

Hitch the loaded caravan to the car, as if ready to move off. this includes ALL passengers and luggage.

Measure the vertical height of the hitch from the ground. This should be between 350 and 420mm to the geometric centre of the tow ball.

Chock the caravan wheels and Un-hitch the car and support the caravan hitch on the measuring device. Adjust the height of the measuring device so the hitch is supported at its towing height, and read the imposed weight on the hitch support.

Parksy's point about the accuracy of bathroom scales is valid, however they are have more chance of being closer to the truth than than most nose weight devices. Support the scales on the footstep and make fine adjustments using copies of magazines (PC is a handy increment)more likely.

You can also make an attempt to calibrate the scales, by placing an empty water barrel on the scales, zeroing them then add a known quantity of water say 40 litres (1 litre H2O weighs 1Kg). Armed with this you can see what sort of error the sacles have and you can correct the nose weight reading accordingly.

 

[johnandrew70]

it was a pyramid yellow gauge, heard people say they are not accurate but its all i have at the moment
Also what is the best gauge to buy?
Slowly losing my patients with it to be honest

 

[Dustydog]

John

Are you using a simple spring type weight measure?
I have one and with one finger pressing on the drawerbar I can change the reading quite considerably.
Somewhere back in time on here is a design for a safe home made frame to be used with a decent set of bathroom scales.

You mean like this one i made a few years ago out of a old towball & a bit of box section some threaded bar to adjust the ball height & a set of cheap Ikea bathroom scales ?

I knew it wasn't me

I used to put an axle stand on the bathroom scale and adjust the axle stand height plus the scales were set to zero
Now I put the nose weight gauge on the trolley jack and set it so that the caravan is at the same attitude as when towing

Hi John

At the risk of being rude may I suggest the whole basis of your problem is flawed because your measurement device is clearly totally inaccurate as I suggested a few posts back.

Use something like Watson John G suggested and tell us the results.

The freely available cheap nose weight gauges are IMO a total waste of money and highly inaccurate as I have said previously..
Your local dealer may be able to help you with an accurate measuring device.