Challenger 560 Noseweight heavy

[johnandrew70]

i have weight nose weight with nothing in it and with it full its no different either way i was simply asking if anyone thought that maybe the gauge is up the spout and i have also pointed out that i dont have bathroom scales at hand or a degree in welding to knock up some kind of device to use with bathroom scales.
Because it flattens the nose weight gauge (something that i keep repeating) i beleive that speaks for itself so sorry but i cannot tell you what it weighs when at the same hight as the hitch.
I keep getting the feeling that people are talking to me as if i am a child i do take in what people are telling me, i have given you all the information i have, if i knew what was wrong i would not be on here asking for advice,
I was hoping that someone would have replied with something like, your gauge is faulty because you shouldnt be able to push down on it manually over the 75kg marking,
i have watched video's online as to how you check your nose weight so i have an idea i know what do do.
I appreciate the info i get from you all on here and i am just as raged about it as you but please stop making out that i am giving you incomplete bits of info i am telling you how it is.
John

 

[Parksy]

Hi John
Without actually seeing the gauge it's difficult to declare right off that it's 'faulty', but as I wrote earlier, the chances are that it's inaccurate, or in other words faulty if you prefer.
I've got one of those yellow Millenco gauges and basically it's cr@p, as are most others costing about £20.
I'm reluctant to advise this because accidents have been known to happen, but borrow somebody's bathroom scales, cut a sturdy piece of wood to the height of your hitch when loaded with the wood vertically on the scales as described by others earlier and weigh the wood.
Then gradually lower your jockey wheel until the hitch sits on the wood.
Subtract the weight of the wood and you'll have at least some idea of your noseweight and incidentally of how accurate your gauge is.
HTH

 

[johnandrew70]

Thank you Parksy
I have just been to a friend who said i could borrow his gauge, Unfortunatley its been so long since he used it he couldnt remember where he put it

.(it was an expensive one too)
I am going to go to tesco in the morning and try and find some machanical scales then take another trip over to the Van to start all over again.
by the way someone on here asked what the hight of the towball is on the car laden its 370mm.
Imight get to the bottom of this by the time we use the van next

 

[Parksy]

You're welcome John
You'll probably never get it to be spot on but as long as you're not massively over I wouldn't worry too much.
I've never heard of anybody being prosecuted for having 'too much noseweight' although it's best to try to stay within limits.
Instability is more likely to occur with too little noseweight as long as you are not overloaded

 

[johnandrew70]

i always thought that a heavier nose was better for stability, as i have said previously on here i towed it without bothering with the noseweight when we bought it and have to say it towed better than our old 2 berth Abbey.

As for overloading, well thats another issue as the wife wants to take her entire wardrobe when we go away

.

I preffer to travel light.

John

 

[Gagakev]

Hi John,
Have been following this thread with interest and you seem to be getting now where so I would like to in my opinion say your gauge is up the spout!!!!
How do I know, well I saw you were getting fraustrated so I have been out and had a play with my gauge, yes cheap yellow one and with two hands could only get it to around the 45kg to 50kg, so thinking I was not very strong I went up and jumped on my bathroom scales and weighed myself came in at a whopping 80kg, back down outside and carefully balanced on the gauge (yes it did flip first time) and the gauge then reached around the 75kg so with my weight on it there could be a margin of 5kg
Hope this helps, time for a pint

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi Gagakev
you are brave trying to balance on it, i tried but soon gave up after the first attempt, i can deffo push down on it with 2 hands and get 80kg maybe i dont know my own strengh haha, but putting money on the gauge being Faulty, i did try sitting on it (with a piece of wood on top)

and fell off but did get a reading of 70kg with my feet on the ground, i weigh 90kg. it is very frustrating i know its a case of getting a good set of scales etc but the gauge was £15 and i get frustrated that its money down the pan and to top it all i cant find the receipt.
John

 

[Sproket]

John.
Tesco have some cheap bathroom scales that will do....
If you have a single step you could put them on top & you won't be far off height wise....
Easier to bring the height up as they will be more stable to use....
I have one of these in the van so we can check the nose weight when leaving site....
Good luck in your quest ......

 

[Gagakev]

Good luck with the bathroom scales tomorrow John, do think you need to go down the alternative route, back to basic,s might be best way to go
I actually have the reverse scenario, putting more weight on!!! The front locker has two gas bottles, spare wheel, wooden chocs, awniing pegs, ehu cable wheels chocs etc etc the list goes on and on to get to the required noseweight I even put things inside the van nearer the front (normally boxes of beer), got it susssed now though

Let us know how you get on, cheers.

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi Sprocket
How Accurate is the Reich Gauge?? that price is so cheap compared to other places even ebay want nearly £40.
Would you recommend it??
John

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi John,
I know it is frustrating but bear with us, we are only trying to help,
one of the fundimental aspects of any experiment is to be able to verify the results using diferent criteria, while at the same time being honest about the results, continually testing the weight with a piece of equipment that could possibly be faulty without either verifying the equipment is accurate or using some other means to measure it is to be honest a waste of time, sometimes you have to think outside the box in these situations,
for instance, how big a bloke are you, and how strong?? you mention pressing the gauge down to 75kg, that statement in it's self leads to other questions that cannot be answered in isolation on a forum as no one knows you,
if it is any help after reading the latest posts I too went out to the garage got out my noseweight gauge "a yellow one with a big spring down the middle" placed it on a slab of stone and pressed it down to 82kg, now i'm a big bloke and 16stone "like Bluto" wether one could press a gauge down to 75kg would depend on wether one was another Bluto, Popeye, or a Olive oyl, I think this is the essence of the Profs comment about incomplete bits of information, Gagakevs last post puts this beautifully in context 3 different blokes doing the same test with diferent results. ps, if I stood on the gauge it would probably bottom out as 16stone is 101kg,
untill you can verify the readings by some other method, you are wasting your time sorry, you have to know the criteria that your working from and untill this is established there is no point in going any further, as everything else is a progression from one point to another, for instance you dont know the effect of moving stuff around if the measurments cannot be verified as a base line,

even in the 70's when everything was done by the seat of your pants we knew the importance of noseweight back then the method apart from the "clever ones" who used some form of scales, was to try and lift the hitch using both hands if you could not lift it, it was too heavy, if you could lift it with one hand it was too light, and if you could lift it with two hands then it was near enough,
very un-scientific and no good for modern times but better than nothing, actually better than trying to weigh it with a piece of equipment that one has no idea of wether it works or not.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

I'm sorry if my last post was a bit tetchy, but we seemed to be going round in circles.
We now know the height of the tow hitch "370" which means its within regulation. This also means the caravan A frame will also be within the normal range, so if you are experiencing grounding of the jockey wheel, then something is none standard there, Looking at your picture, the bottom of the wheel does appear to be lower than some and it also gives the impression of being a larger diameter, which might mean its can't be raised as high as it should.

Now the nose weight:
The device that Sproket points to has one major disadvantage. It adds nearly 75mm to the height of the hitch, so it does not actually measure the true nose weight. It claims to compensate for this, but unless you can dial in the distance between the hitch and the axle, and the height of the caravans centre of gravity and its linear horizontal distance from the axle, the device's correction algorithm is incapable of providing a true correction. It certainly ant accurately compensate for suspension geometry of twin axle caravans. It is unwise to rely on it as a definitive measurement tool.

I recommend you don't bother with a dedicated nose weight gauge. they are in-accurate, and only have one purpose. Spend £20 to £30 on a decent pair of bathroom scales, and have a multi-purpose device that can be properly zeroed and will probably be more consistent and accurate than any dedicated noseweight gauge.

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi colin
thanks for the reply and of course Prof,
Colin your last posting talking about lifting the van with 2 hands is what i can do, i can lift the front up until the back bottoms out.
I will have to find bathroom scales tomorrow and have another go.
John

 

[Sproket]

Hi Sprocket
How Accurate is the Reich Gauge?? that price is so cheap compared to other places even ebay want nearly £40.
Would you recommend it??
John

John.
Yes i would recomend it

I paid full price for mine when they first came out, easy & simple to use as it is a load cell so no real movement like compressing a spring, i have checked mine a few times & allways been within a two to three kg's compared with the bathroom scales that cost about £3.00 from Ikea...
The only thing that you have to remember is to clamp it with the stabiliser, before lowering onto the tow ball...

TLC- Towbar Load Control Digital Noseweight Gauge
The TLC is a new,accurate digital gauge for measuring the weight of the hitch on the towball.
Introduced this year the Reich TLC Towbar load Control combines an excellent design with excellent accuracy. Noseweight is a critical factor controlling your caravan's stability.
The measurement is made by locating the Reich TLC between the towball and the hitch as seen in the image. This has the advantage of measuring the weight with the hitch at the correct level.
The Towbar Load Control's accuracy and reliability is due to the use of load cell technology. The TLC is small and light enough to take with you.
Technical Data:

• Max load - 109kg
• Tolerance less than 3%
• Temperature range - 0 to 50 degrees C
• Weight - approx 340g
• Dimensions 170 x 68 x 120.5mm

Operation:

• The TLC is inserted into the caravan hitch socket, apply handbrake.
• The hitch and TLC are then lowered onto the towball.
• Press the red button to reset the TLC and raise the jockey wheel of the ground so that the hitch sits fully on the towball.
• Read the caravan noseweight on the gauge's digital display.

Note: The TLC must be removed before towing
The Twin axle version automactically takes into account the different load distribution involved

• Noseweight gauge with digital readout in 1kg steps
• Load Cell technology
• No springs
• Requires 2 x AA batteries (not included)

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Hi colin
thanks for the reply and of course Prof,
Colin your last posting talking about lifting the van with 2 hands is what i can do, i can lift the front up until the back bottoms out.
I will have to find bathroom scales tomorrow and have another go.
John

hi john, thats actually good news, and in a way a very good start, because at least it shows the gauge you have is very weak and nothing you could have done would have made any difference to the readings obtained, also given that 100kg is roughly my weight 16stone and given that it is unlikely "unless you have been eating lots of spinach" that you would be able to lift that much weight, it shows two things
(1) it has to be under 100kg probably around the 80kg ish mark how much you will see when the bathroom scales are used as per instructions and
(2) it is not the van design thats at fault and furthermore once a reasonablely accurate measurment is taken trimming the van should be easy, it doesn't explain why the car sits so low but it might be a lot better when the noseweight is right.

I have been thinking about the jockey wheel being low between posts and come up with a couple of suggestions, check the diameter and width of the wheel to see if it is standard and matches the recess in the underside of the A frame, also is the tyre solid or pnumatic given that a mover is fitted it is possible the wheel has been changed, for one bigger this would reduce the ground clearance by quite a bit,
let us know what you find tomorrow "sorry later today" as there may be some other things you could try once this weight thing is sorted.

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi all
Sprocket thanks for theat, after reading many reviews i decided ti buy one, also going to do the bathroom scales too although at the moment the weather is not good so will have to wait till next weekend which gives me chance to watch Formula 1 this afternoon

.
Hi Colin, i looked at the jockey wheel yesterday while i was there it has a standard plastic wheel, i was thinking of replacing it for a pneumatic wheel as it will be easier to use on the chippings where we store it, the problem i have alwasys found is that they keep deflating, Near to where the van is stored there is a place that sells jockey wheels, they do a soft rubber tyre which is solid but feels like a pneumatic tyre, confusing yes, just wondered if anyone has used them??
.

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi All
Ok so i have been over to the van today and checked the nose weight using my new Reich gauge and it was 108kg, i then remembered the water heater was full so emptied that and it brought it down to just under 100kg. i then took the gas bottles out 1x 7kg and 1x4.5.
this brought it down to 71kg.
i am at some point going to swap the 7kg for a calor lite so for now the 7kg has gone back in and i put some water in the aquaroll and stuck that just behind the axle so the final reading was 82kg.
it wasnt until i unhitched the car and packed everything up i remembered the mover was still engaged

would that have a major affect of the nose weight or no affect at all?.
I have added a pic hope it comes out ok.
Just goes to show just because you buy something brand new it dont mean its working ok, that old nose weight gauge is destined for the bin.

 

[johnandrew70]

 

[Sproket]

John
When you try it again, remember to put the stabiliser handle down as that grips & holds the gauge vertical.....

The only way to get a true nose weight reading is for the van wheels to be chocked & the hand brake & mover disconnected plus being on level ground helps, that way the van will pivot freely on the wheel bearings ( if it's a single axle ) if the handbrake is on the van, it will want to pivot on the suspension, but once you have got a true weight with the wheels chocked you could lift the van just off of the towball & apply the handbrake & see what difference it would make to taking your reading again, same goes for you mover, a bit of faffing but worth it, the main thing is that you are getting there

Let us know how you get on ......

 

[johnandrew70]

Hi sprocket
yea the handbrake was off but as i said the mover was engaged.
i didnt know the stabiliser had to be in the locked position, the instructions didnt show that bit

very impressed with the Reich gauge very good bit of kit, the only bit of a pain was having to keep winding down the jockey wheel to switch it on then wind it back up but at least i have the hang of it, just need to get rid of that heavy gas bottle, does anyone know if i can exchange a 7kg butane for a propane calor lite?
John

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Hi sprocket
yea the handbrake was off but as i said the mover was engaged.
i didnt know the stabiliser had to be in the locked position, the instructions didnt show that bit

very impressed with the Reich gauge very good bit of kit, the only bit of a pain was having to keep winding down the jockey wheel to switch it on then wind it back up but at least i have the hang of it, just need to get rid of that heavy gas bottle, does anyone know if i can exchange a 7kg butane for a propane calor lite?
John

hi John, yes you can at any calor store, the cyliders are a bit dearer though, and some charge a surcharge on the first one,
I got mine form B&Q , no surcharge £22 for the refill.
nice to hear the noseweight issue is sorted, told you it was not that difficult

once you have a starting point! "and a good gauge"

 

[johnandrew70]

Thanks Colin, i went into B&Q today saw Patio Gas advertised but didnt see calor lite, will have another look tomorrow.
I think i paid £23 for this bottle of butane a couple of years ago so if the lite is £22 its ok by me

ah but i have just realised i will need a new hose to go from regulator on the bulkhead to bottle and of course the connector on the bottle

John

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi John, in most stores the gas compound is near the trade exit

edit,
just looked on calor site priced confirmed £21.99p with free exchange from propane 6kg and butane 7kg
and yes you will requre the propane regulator tail. about a tenner off Ebay

 

[ProfJohnL]

before changing to patio gas, check that the patio gas's regulators output pressure matches the the approved pressures for your caravan appliances. it is unsafe and illegal to connect missmatched gas supplies and appliances.

 

[Dustydog]

before changing to patio gas, check that the patio gas's regulators output pressure matches the the approved pressures for your caravan appliances. it is unsafe and illegal to connect missmatched gas supplies and appliances.

Hi Prof
If he changes to patio gas will the cylinder still fit in the caravan's retainer seat,bracket and straps?
Will he have to bypass the bulkhead regulator or can you pass the gas through the cylinder regulator and then through the bulkehead one?
Personally we use propane because of all year caravanning . I've never seen patio gas for sale on caravan sites. Could be a problem???????????