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G
Guest
RAY. "The fuel is exactly the same, only the additives are different"
Its a bit like saying all the cuppa teas you have drank are all the same. The additives themselves are vital, especially with diesel. They all do not have the same cetane rating or biomix, or for that matter, additives to combat the lack of sulphur,which is imperative for good lubrication of the injector system.
You might not notice the difference, but they are not entirely the same.
Its a bit like saying all the cuppa teas you have drank are all the same. The additives themselves are vital, especially with diesel. They all do not have the same cetane rating or biomix, or for that matter, additives to combat the lack of sulphur,which is imperative for good lubrication of the injector system.
You might not notice the difference, but they are not entirely the same.
Fao Dusty.
My remapping of the computer systems on my Renault were done first time around by my brother-in-law who is a master technician. He then trained me on how to use the software he downloaded to my laptop.
I can hook the pc to the car and review performance of the fuel and, air and ingnition systems and remap if necessary to optimise the engine control.
Having been trained to write programs for CNC milling and turning machines the transition over to remapping PLC's was quite easy for me. It's not for the faint hearted though and I did learn one valuable tip from my CNC days of making a master copy of the plc program before you tinker!
Basically you get out for nout with performance tuning and often fuel consumption goes out the window if you tune for pure power and maxed out RPM. You do have to strike the happy medium between torque range, power,reliability/endurance and fuel usage to make affordable benificial changes.
In my case for example I could take the rev limiter from 6'500 Rpm out to 10'000 Rpm which would also in turn allow fuel consumption to go down to about 10Mpg but the engine would only last about 1'000 miles or so before self distructing. On the other hand by opimising air flow and ignition timing at between 2'000rpm and 3'500 rpm, I can gain more torque and power within the most used rev range of the engine. The latter being the simulation of normal driving conditions.
Next time your out and about, make a note of how often you go near to top revs and where your engine rpm spends most of it's time. That is the part of your fuel, air and engine ignition actuation that needs to be optimised.
When it comes time to set the vehicle up any tuning shop worth it's salt will do this with a rolling road that can have the rollers preloaded to simulate the vehicle under towing strain.
Asking questions about the way they propose to remap your vehicle should include replies simlar to the paragraph above. If not they are just bolt on tuners who do it by guess work.
ATB Steve L.
My remapping of the computer systems on my Renault were done first time around by my brother-in-law who is a master technician. He then trained me on how to use the software he downloaded to my laptop.
I can hook the pc to the car and review performance of the fuel and, air and ingnition systems and remap if necessary to optimise the engine control.
Having been trained to write programs for CNC milling and turning machines the transition over to remapping PLC's was quite easy for me. It's not for the faint hearted though and I did learn one valuable tip from my CNC days of making a master copy of the plc program before you tinker!
Basically you get out for nout with performance tuning and often fuel consumption goes out the window if you tune for pure power and maxed out RPM. You do have to strike the happy medium between torque range, power,reliability/endurance and fuel usage to make affordable benificial changes.
In my case for example I could take the rev limiter from 6'500 Rpm out to 10'000 Rpm which would also in turn allow fuel consumption to go down to about 10Mpg but the engine would only last about 1'000 miles or so before self distructing. On the other hand by opimising air flow and ignition timing at between 2'000rpm and 3'500 rpm, I can gain more torque and power within the most used rev range of the engine. The latter being the simulation of normal driving conditions.
Next time your out and about, make a note of how often you go near to top revs and where your engine rpm spends most of it's time. That is the part of your fuel, air and engine ignition actuation that needs to be optimised.
When it comes time to set the vehicle up any tuning shop worth it's salt will do this with a rolling road that can have the rollers preloaded to simulate the vehicle under towing strain.
Asking questions about the way they propose to remap your vehicle should include replies simlar to the paragraph above. If not they are just bolt on tuners who do it by guess work.
ATB Steve L.
My wife likes her tea with sweeteners, and takes two.
I on the other hand take only half a spoon of sugar.
The tea bags and water are exactly the same, the end result is a cup of tea.
Both have done the job, the question is, would you want or feel the need, to pay more for one brew, over the other.
Perhaps if my tea was rebranded esso you would?
Hello Ray,
The link was to show that in some cases supermarket fuels are provided by leading players like BP.
Just to add that as purely a subjective response, I do find that my diesel vehicles seem to be rougher when running on my local supermarket fuel, and smoother on others and main stream retailers.
I also find that my local supermarket is often more expensive than other main stream retailers even within a 5 mile radius. So I try to avoid my local supermarket, and take advantage of other retailers when I'm passing them.
The link was to show that in some cases supermarket fuels are provided by leading players like BP.
Just to add that as purely a subjective response, I do find that my diesel vehicles seem to be rougher when running on my local supermarket fuel, and smoother on others and main stream retailers.
I also find that my local supermarket is often more expensive than other main stream retailers even within a 5 mile radius. So I try to avoid my local supermarket, and take advantage of other retailers when I'm passing them.
Johnl
That's really what i was attempting to say in my earlier post.
As far as i know, the base fuel is exactly the same, all from the same storage tanker, however each customer will have there own additive specification, which is added at the same time that the out going tanker, is being filled.
And that is the only difference, the additive.
That's really what i was attempting to say in my earlier post.
As far as i know, the base fuel is exactly the same, all from the same storage tanker, however each customer will have there own additive specification, which is added at the same time that the out going tanker, is being filled.
And that is the only difference, the additive.
G
Guest
Steve. If you can get a standard Renault car that has a red line at 6500rpm, to function properly up to 10,000rpm,for about a 1000 miles whilst using that so called new max rev limit, I suggest you are in the wrong job!Cuz it wont happen. not withstanding valve bounce and destruction at around the 8000rpm mark for starters, you have absolutely no idea if any other internals could take that massive 40% increase in RPM. then there is the injector pump and injectors,that possible also could not supply enough fuel to stop the engine melting due to heat build up from a far too lean mixture!
There you go.Exactly what i posted,sorry Steve but that sums up the same attitude as some and most of the "tuners".Impossability springs to my mind.I/we have been tied up with electronic control of diesel engines since the Yanks introduced it -1995 ish.I have never ever seen what is contained and written in the calibration/flash/parametre data file and we upload them into ECM,s as regular as clockwork and also an agent.Were these guys get of i dont know.
ME & Seth.
Your quite right guys.
To accomodate the excess rev range a complete engine build including double valve springs, tougher crankshaft and con rod bearings plus a re vamped fuel system would all need addressing which by that time would strip you of a minor fortune and not just a few hundred quid.
Again, if you have anylised the actual rev range while towing, you will find that your engine spends most of it's time between 2'000rpm and 3'500rpm. Therefore as I've already said, optimising performance and efficiencey at that range pays better dividends.
So in a nut shell any bolton/plug in box of tricks is basically just that, TRICKS. Unless the plc's are integrated with each other harmoniously, in other words all pulling the same way, all you will achieve is an engine that is thirsty and running lumpy.
My Renault already does a ton at 4'000 rpm so just by doing your math, it is way capable of being a speedy beast. Where my re-mapping came into play was the opimisation between 2'000 & 3'500rpm. With the van on the back (1436Kgs) I can now cruise at 60 easily and stay one gear higher as a rule when climbing hills. Solo, I don't need to change down to accelerate from 50mph in 5th gear to beyond the national limit in under 5 seconds.
It's not reving the nuts off an engine that counts, it is all about delivering torque and power where it's needed most.
ATB Steve L.
Your quite right guys.
To accomodate the excess rev range a complete engine build including double valve springs, tougher crankshaft and con rod bearings plus a re vamped fuel system would all need addressing which by that time would strip you of a minor fortune and not just a few hundred quid.
Again, if you have anylised the actual rev range while towing, you will find that your engine spends most of it's time between 2'000rpm and 3'500rpm. Therefore as I've already said, optimising performance and efficiencey at that range pays better dividends.
So in a nut shell any bolton/plug in box of tricks is basically just that, TRICKS. Unless the plc's are integrated with each other harmoniously, in other words all pulling the same way, all you will achieve is an engine that is thirsty and running lumpy.
My Renault already does a ton at 4'000 rpm so just by doing your math, it is way capable of being a speedy beast. Where my re-mapping came into play was the opimisation between 2'000 & 3'500rpm. With the van on the back (1436Kgs) I can now cruise at 60 easily and stay one gear higher as a rule when climbing hills. Solo, I don't need to change down to accelerate from 50mph in 5th gear to beyond the national limit in under 5 seconds.
It's not reving the nuts off an engine that counts, it is all about delivering torque and power where it's needed most.
ATB Steve L.
G
Guest
Not trying to contradict you Steve,a lot of what you say is bang on,but in your case you have a petrol engined car? with no turbo?
The gains you can make in midrange torque isn't even worth mentioning, unlike a forced induction car you are far more limited to low/to midrange grunt by cam timing/profile.
So i can hardly see how at best 10 ft/lb of extra torque is going to equip the car with the sort of extra grunt to pull a higher gear than what was possible before.
Of course if its forced induction [turbo] then there are decent gains to be made to help the car pull a higher gear...
The gains you can make in midrange torque isn't even worth mentioning, unlike a forced induction car you are far more limited to low/to midrange grunt by cam timing/profile.
So i can hardly see how at best 10 ft/lb of extra torque is going to equip the car with the sort of extra grunt to pull a higher gear than what was possible before.
Of course if its forced induction [turbo] then there are decent gains to be made to help the car pull a higher gear...
Hi Me.
Surely a turbo relies on the vaccume caused by high end engine revs. Typically turbos on petrol cars don't boost before around 3'000rpm. A super charger which is driven via the engine's crankshaft would be a much better tool.
On my Laguna the parameters you can tweak are the fuel pump pressure, the time slot of supply from each fuel injection, timing of ignition & duration, lambda sensor settings. then mechanically fitting an induction air pack and taking the cat out will also help the engine to breathe better. Then of coarse there was the "polishing & Porting" that I did last year when I took the head off to replace two burnt valves and one valve seat which had taken 180'000 miles to achieve. I took the oportunity to go back to good old 1970's tuning and polish the inside of the manifolds, cylinderhead ports and match size for size the manifold port shape/size with that of the cylinderhead and the gaskets, thus improving air/fuel/exhaust flow through the engine. At that time I also examined the cylinder bores and found virtually no wear. The original honing marks were still definable, which doesn't suprise me as Renault made the piston rings and wet liners of a simlar material. As the oil pressure was still very good, I left well alone at the crankshaft end.
Atb Steve.
Surely a turbo relies on the vaccume caused by high end engine revs. Typically turbos on petrol cars don't boost before around 3'000rpm. A super charger which is driven via the engine's crankshaft would be a much better tool.
On my Laguna the parameters you can tweak are the fuel pump pressure, the time slot of supply from each fuel injection, timing of ignition & duration, lambda sensor settings. then mechanically fitting an induction air pack and taking the cat out will also help the engine to breathe better. Then of coarse there was the "polishing & Porting" that I did last year when I took the head off to replace two burnt valves and one valve seat which had taken 180'000 miles to achieve. I took the oportunity to go back to good old 1970's tuning and polish the inside of the manifolds, cylinderhead ports and match size for size the manifold port shape/size with that of the cylinderhead and the gaskets, thus improving air/fuel/exhaust flow through the engine. At that time I also examined the cylinder bores and found virtually no wear. The original honing marks were still definable, which doesn't suprise me as Renault made the piston rings and wet liners of a simlar material. As the oil pressure was still very good, I left well alone at the crankshaft end.
Atb Steve.
G
Guest
Yes steve, it appears you have done far more than just a remap. as I said earlier that alone would not give you any real benefit towards having the ability to pull a higher gear, especially with the vans on the back.
As for all that extra work you did,ditto not going to give you the sort of gains that are needed to pull what appear to be a high geared car.but it should run better and might be a tad better on mpg too,but without a new camshaft profile and larger inlet and exhaust valves, not worth the time trouble and expense.
How do you get it through an MOT without the cat fitted?
This is a legal requirement for a petrol car
As for all that extra work you did,ditto not going to give you the sort of gains that are needed to pull what appear to be a high geared car.but it should run better and might be a tad better on mpg too,but without a new camshaft profile and larger inlet and exhaust valves, not worth the time trouble and expense.
How do you get it through an MOT without the cat fitted?
This is a legal requirement for a petrol car
My point isn't a million miles away from either of your views. I agree turbo's have come a long way since the 80's and so has the electronic control of engines. The electronic controls have developed so far that the accuracey of manufacture of the basic engine structure doesn't need to be so accurate on standard mass production vehicles.
Apart from the change to the air intake system you can't physically see the modifications to my car. You would need a gas anyliser to find there is no cat as I've straight piped through the standard cat box internally.
Without breaking the bank and making sensible adjustments to the internal breathing and timing of the engine components I've got a result that I'm happy with.
Steve L.
Apart from the change to the air intake system you can't physically see the modifications to my car. You would need a gas anyliser to find there is no cat as I've straight piped through the standard cat box internally.
Without breaking the bank and making sensible adjustments to the internal breathing and timing of the engine components I've got a result that I'm happy with.
Steve L.
Steve,
Its obvious from the smell whenever i'm travelling behind a petrol car with the cat removed. I dont need a gas analyser.
Its obvious from the smell whenever i'm travelling behind a petrol car with the cat removed. I dont need a gas analyser.
I fitted a chip to my previous mondeo and i fitted this to my present one http://www.chipexpress.com/diesel-tuning-box-ford-mondeo-2.2-tdci-kit-480.html both times i have noticed a much quicker accelaration, the car feels like it is tuned to perfection and i dont think its overtuned.
G
Guest
Given the quoted figures that site gives, for my mk3 2.2 tdci, I would say over tuned is somewhat an understatement.
They quote 204!Bhp, max for my 155bhp version.Do they just think of a number and add it on...!
They quote 204!Bhp, max for my 155bhp version.Do they just think of a number and add it on...!
Freelander 2, rolling road in standard trim 153 BHP, after remapping 205 BHP on the rolling road. Fuel consumption is around 12% better, tows better than the previous Discovery, don't even know the 'van is there. 40,000 miles and 2 MOT's later, no problems whatsoever. I might even go for an intercooler upgrade.
Long motorway hills are just dispensed with. Country lanes ? just point and squirt.
Long motorway hills are just dispensed with. Country lanes ? just point and squirt.
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