Crack in panel!

[Buckman]

Thanks for your valued reality input. However what are the chances of two different caravans of the same brand and model owned by the same person experiencing the same cracked front panels?
One caravan being a 2016 and the other a 2018 plus of course a number of other owners of the same caravan experiencing the same issue with the ABS panels. Just to add we were informed in 2017 when before purchasing that the design and strength of the ABS panels for the 2018 had been improved.
Taking into consideration that on the first caravan the panel was cracked within a week of delivery and was cracked even before it was put into storage and on the drive back to our local area.
Why are there so many complaints with numerous pictures about front and rear ABS panels cracking on a number of different brands of caravans which have one thing in common and that is that the caravans have front and rear ABS panels.
I am sure that any judge would take all these facts into account as very telling evidence that there is something drastically wrong with the manufacture of the panels and that the inherent hidden fault probably existed prior to delivery to dealer however the onus is on the dealer to do the repair under CRA 2015.

 

[Buckman]

Speaking to an AWS technician where part of their business is repairing cracked caravan panels, he is wondering why the dealer wants to replace the wall boards when they are nowhere near the crack. He is not even sure of the ceiling panel if it has about 25% damp and the damp has only been present for about 3 months. He laughed when he saw the cost of the paint for such a small area.

The crack is on the roof and almost 1m away from the offside of the caravan so why wall board replacement? The other issue was the gas locker floor needing replacement for damp on the roof?

If the dealer has to do it under CRA 2015 I am wondering whether they will replace the gas locker floor, ceiling and wall boards?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks for your valued reality input. However what are the chances of two different caravans of the same brand and model owned by the same person experiencing the same cracked front panels?
One caravan being a 2016 and the other a 2018 plus of course a number of other owners of the same caravan experiencing the same issue with the ABS panels. Just to add we were informed in 2017 when before purchasing that the design and strength of the ABS panels for the 2018 had been improved.
Taking into consideration that on the first caravan the panel was cracked within a week of delivery and was cracked even before it was put into storage and on the drive back to our local area.
Why are there so many complaints with numerous pictures about front and rear ABS panels cracking on a number of different brands of caravans which have one thing in common and that is that the caravans have front and rear ABS panels.
I am sure that any judge would take all these facts into account as very telling evidence that there is something drastically wrong with the manufacture of the panels and that the inherent hidden fault probably existed prior to delivery to dealer however the onus is on the dealer to do the repair under CRA 2015.

A judge would look at the facts. And one fact which is all to easy to ignore is that not ALL front panels crack, thus that goes against the presumption that there is a design or manufacturing fault. And in your own case, having had two caravans exhibit similar types of failure, perhaps it's something that you are doing. That highlights the difficulty of making such claims, unless there is some irrefutable evidence, it's not a forgone conclusion that your contention will succeed.

I'm not trying to put you off taking CRA action, but you should be aware of the difficulties, and to be prepared for it not going the way you expect it will when there are plausible alternative explanations for the damage. Consequently if it does go to court I feel your chances of getting a judgment in your favour to be no more than about 60%

 

[Buckman]

A judge would look at the facts. And one fact which is all to easy to ignore is that not ALL front panels crack, thus that goes against the presumption that there is a design or manufacturing fault. And in your own case, having had two caravans exhibit similar types of failure, perhaps it's something that you are doing. That highlights the difficulty of making such claims, unless there is some irrefutable evidence, it's not a forgone conclusion that your contention will succeed.

I'm not trying to put you off taking CRA action, but you should be aware of the difficulties, and to be prepared for it not going the way you expect it will when there are plausible alternative explanations for the damage. Consequently if it does go to court I feel your chances of getting a judgment in your favour to be no more than about 60%

I understand your very valid points and do expect difficulties having been through the process previously and had to fight hard to win.

The fight will be with the finance house and not the dealer. I am well aware that the finance house will dig in its heels and reject the claim probably based on the points raised above.

Obviously we will then we have to gescalte it to the Ombudsman which negates ever having to go near a court. Unfortunately the Ombudsmand in many cases sides with the finance house until they are presented with irrefutable proof. Cost me almost nothing except time , but costs the finance company a couple of hundred quid.

With the first caravan, the front panel cracked the first day on its journey after delivery from the dealer and travelling up the M5. The rear panel then cracked followed by the replacement front panel cracking again within 3 months plus the rear panel also cracked. Why do caravans that are static on seasonal sites also end up with cracked panels?

Due to the large number of caravan owners with cracked panels across all brands there must be something inherently wrong with the manufacture and design of the panels? Maybe many owners of Buccaneer caravans are doing something wrong however what about over brands?

However if the caravan manufacturer thought there was nothing wrong with the panels, why only a 1 year warranty?

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
Due to the large number of caravan owners with cracked panels across all brands there must be something inherently wrong with the manufacture and design of the panels? Maybe many owners of Buccaneer caravans are doing something wrong however what about over brands?

However if the caravan manufacturer thought there was nothing wrong with the panels, why only a 1 year warranty?

Certainly from your perspective it may seem a very valid question, and it's easy to conceive why a manufacturer might not want to get involved with a public debate on the matter (and that's a shame) but unless you have the evidence that it is a common problem for more than 50% of caravans with ABS panels then the manufacture will ( i'm sad to say) choose not to admit any sort of liability beyond the warranty they offer.

You must also not forget that under UK law, manufacturers are not obliged to offer any sort of warranty to end users, so there is no legal liability anyway.

If the problem is really as bad as you believe, then perhaps it needs affected owners to lobby an organisation like the Consumer Association to begin a "Class Action" against the UK caravan industry about its usage of inappropriate designs or materials such as ABS for large scale body mouldings.

 

[Buckman]

Certainly from your perspective it may seem a very valid question, and it's easy to conceive why a manufacturer might not want to get involved with a public debate on the matter (and that's a shame) but unless you have the evidence that it is a common problem for more than 50% of caravans with ABS panels then the manufacture will ( i'm sad to say) choose not to admit any sort of liability beyond the warranty they offer.

You must also not forget that under UK law, manufacturers are not obliged to offer any sort of warranty to end users, so there is no legal liability anyway.

If the problem is really as bad as you believe, then perhaps it needs affected owners to lobby an organisation like the Consumer Association to begin a "Class Action" against the UK caravan industry about its usage of inappropriate designs or materials such as ABS for large scale body mouldings.

I think a lot would depend on the play of words with "10 year damp ingress and body integrity" and how any reasonable person or layman would regard body integrity. Any reasonable person would probably think that body integrity refers to the body of the caravan which includes the body panels. I would appreciate your opinion on this aspect?

It must be remembered that only a small percentage of people will come onto the Internet to complain about cracked panels. Also many will accept a cracked panel as one of those thingsand simply pay the dealer to repair as they do not know their rights under CRA 2015.

However a judge, Trading Standards or an consumer organisation may be able to ask a dealer how many cracked panels they have repaired on caravans in the past year, past 5 years or past 10 years. Many AWS technicians can also confirm that many caravans suffer with stress cracks for whatever reason.

Never heard of any Consumer Association ? How can anyone start a class action against a manufacturer as the consumer does not have a contract with the manufacturer. Unfortunately as individuals the consumer is the one that has to take action.

Anyway basic letter referencing CRA 2015 has been sent and expect the normal intial rejection. At that point I will need to present as much evidence and proof as needed to progress my case.

 

[otherclive]

Analogous to the makers warranty limitations after market warranties on used caravans also exclude damp ingress from cracked panels and panel cracks too.

 

[Buckman]

Analogous to the makers warranty limitations after market warranties on used caravans also exclude damp ingress from cracked panels and panel cracks too.

Ours is not a "used" caravan although it is no longer new. My issue is the cracked panel and once past that the damp ingress issue should fall into place.

Just to add that although the caravan was just over 4 years old, for a combined period of well over a year, it was not used. if we then also take into account the number of nights it has actually been used it may not even total 365. I have not even attempted to work that one out. It must also be remembered that many caravans are stationary for maybe 10 months of the year.

 

[Dustydog]

Looking back
Small Claims Court Limit £10k
County Court Limit £30k
Then the High Court who if they wish can refer cases downwards to the County Court even if the value exceeds £30k
The point here is keep an eye on costs . Prof’s Class Action has been successful elsewhere but the costs may actually wipe out any awards. But still an option.

Have you spoken to your caravan Insurers regarding the allegation the damage may have been caused by a “pot hole” on the road? Their own Engineers will have a view which may help you in dismissing some of the Dealers / Elddis assertions on causation.

There is ample evidence over the last 20 years that ABS panels do crack, not just a few isolated cases. We know one cause is poor installation at point of manufacture, Ie Patent / Latent inherent defects.

Your own Buccaneer Elddis Owners Forum have plenty of evidence.
How far do you go ? On the evidence to date I agree with the Prof Success is 60/40.
The Judge will want to see evidence about your caravan. That’s why I thought an engineer from your own caravan insurer could be useful. You have a view from your AWS, and every one else on here.
The Elddis Warranty I understand is a freebie, there being no Contract with you . So as you have already said it’s the Finance house and Dealer.

I believe the guys on here have covered all the aspects so all I can say is best of luck , go for it. I appreciate this isn’t a good time for you and Mrs B but don’t give up just yet.
BTW, the quotes for repair are ridiculous

 

[otherclive]

Ours is not a "used" caravan although it is no longer new. My issue is the cracked panel and once past that the damp ingress issue should fall into place.

Just to add that although the caravan was just over 4 years old, for a combined period of well over a year, it was not used. if we then also take into account the number of nights it has actually been used it may not even total 365. I have not even attempted to work that one out. It must also be remembered that many caravans are stationary for maybe 10 months of the year.

That’s why I used the words “analogous” and made the point about preowned. It makes no real difference though as if it’s a one owner from new or pre owned four year old caravan. My point is that even the companies that offer insurance backed warranties to previous owned vans exclude damp ingress from cracked plastic body parts and cracking defects too even if there’s no damp ingress. So if insurers exclude that risk, what does that tell you?

 

[Buckman]

Looking back
Small Claims Court Limit £10k
County Court Limit £30k
Then the High Court who if they wish can refer cases downwards to the County Court even if the value exceeds £30k
The point here is keep an eye on costs . Prof’s Class Action has been successful elsewhere but the costs may actually wipe out any awards. But still an option.

Have you spoken to your caravan Insurers regarding the allegation the damage may have been caused by a “pot hole” on the road? Their own Engineers will have a view which may help you in dismissing some of the Dealers / Elddis assertions on causation.

There is ample evidence over the last 20 years that ABS panels do crack, not just a few isolated cases. We know one cause is poor installation at point of manufacture, Ie Patent / Latent inherent defects.

Your own Buccaneer Elddis Owners Forum have plenty of evidence.
How far do you go ? On the evidence to date I agree with the Prof Success is 60/40.
The Judge will want to see evidence about your caravan. That’s why I thought an engineer from your own caravan insurer could be useful. You have a view from your AWS, and every one else on here.
The Elddis Warranty I understand is a freebie, there being no Contract with you . So as you have already said it’s the Finance house and Dealer.

I believe the guys on here have covered all the aspects so all I can say is best of luck , go for it. I appreciate this isn’t a good time for you and Mrs B but don’t give up just yet.
BTW, the quotes for repair are ridiculous

I have the insurance aspect covered and in the process of submitting a claim so that they can assess the caravan however I don't really want them assessing it at the dealership.

TBH I doubt if there will ever be any sort of class action against any caravan manufacturer and they know it so they keep churning out caravans with panels that they know will crack. That is why there is only a one year warranty on panels as they know proving a manufacturers defect could be very expensive for a consumer!

I have access to the mileage done by the caravan since new. I may even be able to get the routes travelled by the caravan in the past 4 years if I pay the Tracking company? Also I am going to try and tally up the number of nights spent in the caravan as I think I have a record of most of my bookings.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think a lot would depend on the play of words with "10 year damp ingress and body integrity" and how any reasonable person or layman would regard body integrity. Any reasonable person would probably think that body integrity refers to the body of the caravan which includes the body panels. I would appreciate your opinion on this aspect?

I have pointed out on numerous occasions that manufacturers are not obliged to offer any warranty, and as such how they decide to offer it is up to the manufacturer what and what is not included, and what specific terms they wish to apply or exclude to the warranty. In your case they have limited the warranty to the seams between panels not the panels themselves. That is their prerogative. I do feel such a limitation is unreasonable, but it is not illegal.

It must be remembered that only a small percentage of people will come onto the Internet to complain about cracked panels. Also many will accept a cracked panel as one of those thingsand simply pay the dealer to repair as they do not know their rights under CRA 2015.

Such a contention is not evidence its only hearsay. To be able to use that argument you would have to be able to quantify it.

However a judge, Trading Standards or an consumer organisation may be able to ask a dealer how many cracked panels they have repaired on caravans in the past year, past 5 years or past 10 years. Many AWS technicians can also confirm that many caravans suffer with stress cracks for whatever reason.

That is a matter for the courts to decide.

Never heard of any Consumer Association ? How can anyone start a class action against a manufacturer as the consumer does not have a contract with the manufacturer. Unfortunately as individuals the consumer is the one that has to take action.

I'm sorry I used the wrong term it should have been a "Super Complaint" These are a special class of action which only a few organisations are permitted initiate. See this govmt web page for more details

What are super-complaints?

www.gov.uk

Which? is a publication of the Consumers Association, and they are one of the organisations that can initate super complaints.

Anyway basic letter referencing CRA 2015 has been sent and expect the normal intial rejection. At that point I will need to present as much evidence and proof as needed to progress my case.

I wish you luck, but as I have pointed out I suspect there are enough pitfalls to make this far from a dead cert.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....I have access to the mileage done by the caravan since new. I may even be able to get the routes travelled by the caravan in the past 4 years if I pay the Tracking company? Also I am going to try and tally up the number of nights spent in the caravan as I think I have a record of most of my bookings.

As I made pointed out previously the milage is not evidence of not having suffered damage, which could have occured any time after leaving the dealer's premises.

 

[Buckman]

I have pointed out on numerous occasions that manufacturers are not obliged to offer any warranty, and as such how they decide to offer it is up to the manufacturer what and what is not included, and what specific terms they wish to apply or exclude to the warranty. In your case they have limited the warranty to the seams between panels not the panels themselves. That is their prerogative. I do feel such a limitation is unreasonable, but it is not illegal.
Such a contention is not evidence its only hearsay. To be able to use that argument you would have to be able to quantify it.
That is a matter for the courts to decide.
I'm sorry I used the wrong term it should have been a "Super Complaint" These are a special class of action which only a few organisations are permitted initiate. See this govmt web page for more details

What are super-complaints?

www.gov.uk

Which? is a publication of the Consumers Association, and they are one of the organisations that can initiate super complaints.
I wish you luck, but as I have pointed out I suspect there are enough pitfalls to make this far from a dead cert.

Your input is valued and helps me decide the best course of action. However whichever way I go about it, from previous experience it will never see light of day in any court. Anyway before it even went near a court, the case will need to go through the Ombudsman first.

Under CRA 2015 it will be up to the finance house to decide whether the warranty is applicable and not myself. As said "Body integrity" jumps out at me and I think it is worth using in an argument as it is an incentive to buy that item.

I understand what hearsay having previously done documentation for court. However a written report from an AWS technician will not be hearsay plus evidence in written form from other consumers on the Buccaneer forum who have had issues may help.

I am a member of Which so what you say could be interesting to others including myself as a number of Buccaneer owners and owners of other brands have used Which regarding cracked panels.

For interest regarding the quotes given which seem to be very excessive, I am still wondering why the necessity to replace ceiling and wall boards if damp is around 25% and would have only have been there short term? Initially the damp would have been a lot lower and peaked at 25% beginning of Feb 2022 as there was no damp in that area in Oct 2021.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Your input is valued and helps me decide the best course of action. However whichever way I go about it, from previous experience it will never see light of day in any court. Anyway before it even went near a court, the case will need to go through the Ombudsman first.

I presume you are referring to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

Under CRA 2015 it will be up to the finance house to decide whether the warranty is applicable and not myself. As said "Body integrity" jumps out at me and I think it is worth using in an argument as it is an incentive to buy that item.

I don't think you have fully grasped the difference between the status of the Manufacturers warranty and the consumers legal rights. The finance house has no more right to accept or reject a manufacturers warranty claim than the dealer. They cannot tell the manufacturer to reverse their decision. The finance house only shares the same liability as the seller/dealer.

The Ombudsman's remit only covers the contractual arrangements between you and the finance house, any outcome can only relate to the finance houses position he(or she) cannot tell the caravan manufacturer to do anything as they are not part of the contract.

I understand what hearsay having previously done documentation for court. However a written report from an AWS technician will not be hearsay plus evidence in written form from other consumers on the Buccaneer forum who have had issues may help.

This might help, but it will almost be certainly countered by similar evidence from satisfied customers, showing that the problem is not universal. This will cast doubt about your experience being the result of poor design, materials or workmanship.

I am a member of Which so what you say could be interesting to others including myself as a number of Buccaneer owners and owners of other brands have used Which regarding cracked panels.

You will need to discuss the matter with Consumers Association or one of the other scheduled organisations who can initiate such actions.

For interest regarding the quotes given which seem to be very excessive, I am still wondering why the necessity to replace ceiling and wall boards if damp is around 25% and would have only have been there short term? Initially the damp would have been a lot lower and peaked at 25% beginning of Feb 2022 as there was no damp in that area in Oct 2021.

I am not in a position to verify the nature of the damage or teh parts needed to effect a good repair.

 

[otherclive]

Is there not a route where you could meet with the dealership and discuss in more detail the make up of the quotation for repair, in anticipation that some agreement can be reached? Or are you wanting to go for the full panel replacement and damp together?

 

[Buckman]

I presume you are referring to the Financial Services Ombudsman.
I don't think you have fully grasped the difference between the status of the Manufacturers warranty and the consumers legal rights. The finance house has no more right to accept or reject a manufacturers warranty claim than the dealer. They cannot tell the manufacturer to reverse their decision. The finance house only shares the same liability as the seller/dealer.
The Ombudsman's remit only covers the contractual arrangements between you and the finance house, any outcome can only relate to the finance houses position he(or she) cannot tell the caravan manufacturer to do anything as they are not part of the contract.

I fully understand difference between a warranty which is just a useless piece of paper and the CRA 2015 however I guess I put it across incorrectly. I have been down this route previous with a former caravan, but thanks for highlighting my mistake..

 

[ProfJohnL]

I fully understand difference between a warranty which is just a useless piece of paper and the CRA 2015 however I guess I put it across incorrectly. I have been down this route previous with a former caravan, but thanks for highlighting my mistake..

I understand your personal view about the manufacturer's warranty, but there are many caravanners who will I'm sure be very pleased to have had one and used it to get problems sorts. So its not entirely useless.

 

[Buckman]

Is there not a route where you could meet with the dealership and discuss in more detail the make up of the quotation for repair, in anticipation that some agreement can be reached? Or are you wanting to go for the full panel replacement and damp together?

The dealership is way over quoting for the damp reading as there should be no necessity for wall and ceiling boards to be replaced. On the repair only quote to repair the crack is just over £500. To remove the damp is over £2000! Why the necessity to replace the gas locker floor when the crack is on the roof?

I understand your personal view about the manufacturer's warranty, but there are many caravanners who will I'm sure be very pleased to have had one and used it to get problems sorts. So its not entirely useless.

It can be when a person makes a claim and then finds obstacles put in the way. However CRA 2015 over rides any warranty.

 

[Buckman]

I understand your personal view about the manufacturer's warranty, but there are many caravanners who will I'm sure be very pleased to have had one and used it to get problems sorts. So its not entirely useless.

Just to add I am pleased that you have brought up the negatives as that has helped tremendously with formatting my complaint using CRA 2015. 👍

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
It can be when a person makes a claim and then finds obstacles put in the way. However CRA 2015 over rides any warranty.

As with most insurance policies, the company sets out what is and isn't covered in their T&C's. If claim is made which is not covered by the policy, the company quite rightly refuses the claim - becasue its not covered.

In your case the manufacturer's warranty T&C's only covered panel joints and not the panels beyond 1 year. You attempted to make a claim on a panel 4 years after the warranty clearly states they are only covered for 1 year so it's hardly surprising the claim was rejected. That is not an obstacle it was a clearly expressed term in the warranty.

Your issue is twofold, Firstly you believe the manufacturer has failed to design the panel moulding adequately, becasue yours has failed. And you also believe the manufacturer's warranty on the panels is inadequate (or even misleading).

The problem is, you know you have no legal claim against the manufacturer, but the CRA does give a possible route for redress against the selle,. and even if you are successful with the CRA it does not impact on the manufacturer.

 

[Buckman]

As with most insurance policies, the company sets out what is and isn't covered in their T&C's. If claim is made which is not covered by the policy, the company quite rightly refuses the claim - becasue its not covered.

In your case the manufacturer's warranty T&C's only covered panel joints and not the panels beyond 1 year. You attempted to make a claim on a panel 4 years after the warranty clearly states they are only covered for 1 year so it's hardly surprising the claim was rejected. That is not an obstacle it was a clearly expressed term in the warranty.

Your issue is twofold, Firstly you believe the manufacturer has failed to design the panel moulding adequately, becasue yours has failed. And you also believe the manufacturer's warranty on the panels is inadequate (or even misleading).

The problem is, you know you have no legal claim against the manufacturer, but the CRA does give a possible route for redress against the selle,. and even if you are successful with the CRA it does not impact on the manufacturer.

Thanks but I am well aware that my contract is with the selling dealer and not the manufacturer. I only mentioned the manufacturer in passing as there is no way I could initiate a claim against the manufacturer.

 

[Buckman]

Yesterday we collected the caravan from the dealer and took it to an AWS technician for inspection and a damp report around the are in question.
He had to look hard to find the crack. On inspecting the caravan inside for damp there is an are about twice the size of a 50p coin where the wall board joins the roof.
You can only see the discolouration if using a very bright torch it is that faint. Area was full of pin homes. Damp reading on his Protimeter was 22% otherwise less than 10%. It does seem that the dealer knew exactly where to look probably based on other Buccaneer caravans. After all the caravan was taken to them for an issue with the offside battery locker.

The AWS technician did various checks and he was of the opinion that it was highly unlikely that the crack was caused by impact damage so there were no signs of any impact damage anywhere on the caravan.

However that is his opinion based on his years of working on caravans so even if he did do a report, if it was challenged he is unsure if it would carry any weight.

The saga continues as the finance company has not yet responed to my CRA 2105 letter quoting the various clauses in relation to the issue.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Damage does not have to be the result of a direct impact to the location of the crack, so I can understand the AWS guys comment, and is why I continue to urge you to be prepared for disappointment.

 

[Buckman]

Damage does not have to be the result of a direct impact to the location of the crack, so I can understand the AWS guys comment, and is why I continue to urge you to be prepared for disappointment.

Thank you, but I am not prepared to take it lying down and to be disappointed! Why should they get away with selling goods not fit for purpose?