Crack in panel!

[otherclive]

With the advent of the fancier type of fronts with the extended middle window, or skylight it’s not really surprising that faults appear in what is a complex structural arrangement. But at least the rear ends should be resistant to cracking given its a simpler arrangement, that the Continental makes have not gone down the British path.

 

[Buckman]

With the advent of the fancier type of fronts with the extended middle window, or skylight it’s not really surprising that faults appear in what is a complex structural arrangement. But at least the rear ends should be resistant to cracking given its a simpler arrangement, that the Continental makes have not gone down the British path.

The crack is right in the bend where there is a depression for where the top skylight fits in the middle.

 

[Dustydog]

To the best of my knowledge ABS panels have given way to GRP and roof inclusive aluminium. My 14 year old ABS panels have tiny radiating hairline cracks emanating from the awning rail edge. 1mm stop holes drilled 4 years ago and Captain Tolleys has done the rest. No water ingress. If you get nothing from the dealer and clearly Elddis are not interested I’d go down the specialist ABS panel, repairer route as suggested by others and Hutch. It is a sad day that caravan manufacturers are still,living in the dark ages, well some have learnt that ABS is not that good

 

[Raywood]

Given the way things are going I think you need to wait and see what the dealer says but you do need to be firm with them and make it clear you will take it further even if this is not the case. The last thing they want is a small claims case which would cost potentially over a thousand in costs for them and next to nothing for you to pursue. At the same time there are risks involved and provided you can get a decent offer towards the cost I would tend to see that as the best way forward.
Eldiss never appear on here, either to accept or deny anything, but it may be they monitor the correspondence, so I would not say anything as to accepting anything other than a full refund of the costs involved whatever your intentions.

 

[Buckman]

Given the way things are going I think you need to wait and see what the dealer says but you do need to be firm with them and make it clear you will take it further even if this is not the case. The last thing they want is a small claims case which would cost potentially over a thousand in costs for them and next to nothing for you to pursue. At the same time there are risks involved and provided you can get a decent offer towards the cost I would tend to see that as the best way forward.
Eldiss never appear on here, either to accept or deny anything, but it may be they monitor the correspondence, so I would not say anything as to accepting anything other than a full refund of the costs involved whatever your intentions.

Trying to get a quote out of the dealer is like trying to find hen's teeth in a desert. If nothing by end of this week I think I will need to send a strongly worded polite letter.
I appreciate that they are under a lot of pressure due to Covid absenteeism, but they have already inspected the caravan an decided that the panel needs to be replaced. I could not even get that info out of them. It was Black Horse that managed to get something verbal from the dealer.

 

[Dustydog]

Interesting old article from caravan talk a few years ago. Elddis and ABS. Doesn’t help but tells you why Elddis maintain their position

https://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/128921-cracks-in-abs-panels-diy-repair-feasible/

 

[Raywood]

Black Horse will in fact be the owners and therefore be the ones most at risk here if there is a decent amount outstanding on a loan agreement. Possibly they will have the power to force the issue here, as I assume you have also claimed against them.

 

[Buckman]

Black Horse will in fact be the owners and therefore be the ones most at risk here if there is a decent amount outstanding on a loan agreement. Possibly they will have the power to force the issue here, as I assume you have also claimed against them.

Of course and naturally they have denied any responsibility stating that the issue was not there when purchased. Unfortunately the issue was there when purchased and was a latent defect.
With wife still in hospital, I have had other matters or issues on my mind which needed resolving first. However byt the same token despite the dealer finding the crack on or about 1st Feb I still have not had a quote for the repair. I have chased the dealer every week for a quote and I am now starting to lose my patience.
Without the quote I cannot make a decision either way.

 

[Buckman]

Although it has been over 2 months since the dealer diagnosed the crack in the panel, we are no nearer to getting a quote from them despite chasing them weekly.

We did collect the caravan mid March as they were waiting for spares to do other repairs and we managed to use the caravan over the Easter weekend. We took the caravan back to the dealer on Tuesday to complete the repairs. We are hoping the dealer will repair the crack at their cost which is maybe why they have not given us an update. BTW pigs might fly! We will only know when the caravan is ready for collection.

In the meantime I have looked into the properties of ABS and it seems that using ABS panels on a caravan is a No No as ABS is not suitable for fatigue or stresses i.e. using on some roads in the UK. ABS also suffers from Weatherability, i.e. damage by sunlight and also fluctuations in temperature i.e. it is hot and then you get a cold rainfall or a sudden change in temperature.. A Google search on ABS sheeting properties brings up loads of links to confirm the aforementioned.

Caravan manufacturers have known this for over a decade, but as ABS is cheaper they continue to use it to the detriment of dealers and consumers.

If the ABS product were so robust, manufacturers would have no issue with a 6 year warranty on body panels. By only offering a 1 year warranty that is like saying in veiled terms that the manufacturer knows that there will be issues with the ABS panels after 1 year!

 

[Raywood]

They may give only a years guarantee, but it does not help the dealer if the panel is faulty as the dealer is liable in that case.

 

[Buckman]

They may give only a years guarantee, but it does not help the dealer if the panel is faulty as the dealer is liable in that case.

I agree however if dealers started putting pressure on the manufacturers by refusing to stock caravans with short life warranties on ABS panels just maybe manufacturers will upgrade the product.
I am of the opinion that the dealers are mainly too blame for not putting enough pressure on manufacturers for many shortcomings on caravans and other goods so manufacturers get away with supplying shoddy goods. The dealer then tries to put the onus on the consumer if the manufacturer does not want to honour a claim and often geto away with palming off the fault onto the consumer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree however if dealers started putting pressure on the manufacturers by refusing to stock caravans with short life warranties on ABS panels just maybe manufacturers will upgrade the product.
I am of the opinion that the dealers are mainly too blame for not putting enough pressure on manufacturers for many shortcomings on caravans and other goods so manufacturers get away with supplying shoddy goods. The dealer then tries to put the onus on the consumer if the manufacturer does not want to honour a claim and often geto away with palming off the fault onto the consumer.

I do agree to some extent that dealers should be more aggressive with manufacturers about problems with caravans that seem to use inappropriate designs or materials. It would be great if they could readily either refuse to accept or return faulty products back to manufacturers, but I suspect the contracts dealers have with manufacturers tie their hands on how particular they can be. Unlike consumers Dealers do not have anything like the CRA to back their position regarding faults or problems.

There is some commercial blackmail going on here, Once a dealer has signed up to manufacturer to sell their caravans, the dealer's business becomes dependant on still being able to receive product to sell to customers. If the dealer starts to kick up a fuss, the manufacturer could simple put so many obstacles in the way of supplying the dealer, that the dealers business could become unviable. After all if the manufacturer lost 1 dealer its unlikely to affect their long term stability, but if a dealer looses his entire access to new product and spares its likely to be devastating. Consequently dealers are unlikely to to make them selves unpopular.

I do think it would be a real step forward if there were some formal standards that govern commercial contracts in much the same way the CRA does for retail contracts.

 

[Dustydog]

I do agree to some extent that dealers should be more aggressive with manufacturers about problems with caravans that seem to use inappropriate designs or materials. It would be great if they could readily either refuse to accept or return faulty products back to manufacturers, but I suspect the contracts dealers have with manufacturers tie their hands on how particular they can be. Unlike consumers Dealers do not have anything like the CRA to back their position regarding faults or problems.

There is some commercial blackmail going on here, Once a dealer has signed up to manufacturer to sell their caravans, the dealer's business becomes dependant on still being able to receive product to sell to customers. If the dealer starts to kick up a fuss, the manufacturer could simple put so many obstacles in the way of supplying the dealer, that the dealers business could become unviable. After all if the manufacturer lost 1 dealer its unlikely to affect their long term stability, but if a dealer looses his entire access to new product and spares its likely to be devastating. Consequently dealers are unlikely to to make them selves unpopular.

I do think it would be a real step forward if there were some formal standards that govern commercial contracts in much the same way the CRA does for retail contracts.

It makes you wonder how 850+ Dealers and a lot of U.K. Manufacturers ,all members of the Hallowed NCC don’t talk about all the issues raised on here? There again I still believe in fairies.
As usual in this industry it is us the customer who carries the can😥

 

[Buckman]

The dealer has just phoned me now with two quotes. To replace the front panel which is recommended will cost over £9000! Apparently the panel alone is over £4000 so £5000 on labour and other parts?
To repair the crack but not replace the panel will cost approximately £2500. No way can we afford the £9000 plus repair. Repairing the damp around the location of the crack will be done at the same time as damp ingress from cracks in the ABS panels is not covered.
The £2500 although excessive we could only just manage however in the meantime I have made contact with other reputable places for the repair and the average quote to repair the crack seems to be about £600?
The dealer has suggested that a pothole may have caused the crack which was not there at its last service in Oct and between then and dropping off the caravan for the repair it had only done about 180 miles and that includes the journey to drop it off which is about 90 miles. I am wondering if I could claim on the caravan insurance.
I dare not tell Mrs B as do not want to compound her issues further so will need to wait until she is out of hospital.

 

[Dustydog]

The dealer has just phoned me now with two quotes. To replace the front panel which is recommended will cost over £9000! Apparently the panel alone is over £4000 so £5000 on labour and other parts?
To repair the crack but not replace the panel will cost approximately £2500. No way can we afford the £9000 plus repair. Repairing the damp around the location of the crack will be done at the same time as damp ingress from cracks in the ABS panels is not covered.
The £2500 although excessive we could only just manage however in the meantime I have made contact with other reputable places for the repair and the average quote to repair the crack seems to be about £600?
The dealer has suggested that a pothole may have caused the crack which was not there at its last service in Oct and between then and dropping off the caravan for the repair it had only done about 180 miles and that includes the journey to drop it off which is about 90 miles. I am wondering if I could claim on the caravan insurance.
I dare not tell Mrs B as do not want to compound her issues further so will need to wait until she is out of hospital.

The dealer has just phoned me now with two quotes. To replace the front panel which is recommended will cost over £9000! Apparently the panel alone is over £4000 so £5000 on labour and other parts?

Unbelievably expensive .You are entitled to see a full breakdown of their verbal estimate. That will be interesting!
Sounds like the panel is bespoke made rather than a stock item.

To repair the crack but not replace the panel will cost approximately £2500.

There are repairs and repairs. Again I’d like to see a written breakdown , hour by hour , par by part and the methodology.

No way can we afford the £9000 plus repair. Repairing the damp around the location of the crack will be done at the same time as damp ingress from cracks in the ABS panels is not covered.

Again a detailed breakdown please.

The £2500 although excessive we could only just manage however in the meantime I have made contact with other reputable places for the repair and the average quote to repair the crack seems to be about £600?

You have to take a realistic approach with Caravan panel repairs. Cosmetically it is easy. But unless accessed from both sides , stitched and sealed the crack could start again.
I believe this is a non structural part so as it is , at the moment, your own cost , I may well look int this solution in more detail.

The dealer has suggested that a pothole may have caused the crack which was not there at its last service in Oct and between then and dropping off the caravan for the repair it had only done about 180 miles and that includes the journey to drop it off which is about 90 miles. I am wondering if I could claim on the caravan insurance.

You can ask your Insurer and tell them the story so far. But do you recall which pot hole ? In some cases where repairs to pot holes have been delayed the Local Authorities have become legally liable. If your Insurers were to accept the claim they would certainly want the opportunity to pursue a recovery.
But can you honestly prove there was an “incident “ that gave rise to the crack ? Just remember whilst the onus is on you to prove your claim your Insurer has to give a coherent reason for not paying. Indeed they may have information that may help,you if they already know Elddis cracks are common place.

I dare not tell Mrs B as do not want to compound her issues further so will need to wait until she is out of hospital.

Agreed not a good one in view of Mrs B s ailments, but good luck anyway.

 

[Buckman]

Here is a picture of the actual crack and also breakdown of the costs,

 

[Buckman]

Reading the article below in my opinion I think it clearly states that the caravan design and materials are not fit for purpose. It must be remembered that due to Covid lockdown we were not able to use the caravan. The crack is on top of the caravan where the front panel joins the roof so should not suffer from stress in that area. The only "rough" road the caravan travelled on was 4 mile to a Ckl and then another 4 miles back. The road has since being repaired where there were potholes. The front area is one complete piece.

 

[otherclive]

Reading the article below in my opinion I think it clearly states that the caravan design and materials are not fit for purpose. It must be remembered that due to Covid lockdown we were not able to use the caravan. The crack is on top of the caravan where the front panel joins the roof so should not suffer from stress in that area. The only "rough" road the caravan travelled on was 4 mile to a Ckl and then another 4 miles back. The road has since being repaired where there were potholes. The front area is one complete piece.

View attachment 3185

A crack could have been developing before Covid but not visible. What do they plan to do for the singular crack repair. Being “ not guaranteed” would be a concern. How would the other company propose to deal with the crack? Whatever route you take it’s a sad reflection on design, development and possibly manufacture. Difficult choice ahead.

 

[Buckman]

I am not sure why the ceiling and wall boards need replacing as they were not stained when I dropped off the caravan. Also charges for glues and sealant seem rather excessive. As panels etc come pre-painted I am not sure why there is a charge for paint?
As you say the crack could have been developing prior to covid or even from day of delivery, but took over 4 years to manifest itself. The Internet is plastered with threads reagrding cracked ABS panels on Elddis and other brands. We all know what happens to plastic iof left exposed to the weather. It becomes brittle, cracks and breaks.
Overall I think costs are way excessive for a premium caravan that is not even 5 years old. Time to use the advice I have given to others.

 

[RogerL]

I don't understand the maker's denial of warranty - reading websites such as Applications for ABS Plastic Sheeting - A&C Plastics (acplasticsinc.com) ABS is used because of its strength and durability - it's used for many car components which are generally subject to far more use and vibration than caravan panels.

I wouldn't know where to start looking but it's worth considering getting a materials engineer report and sue the dealer under CRA for a manufacturing defect present at point of sale.

 

[otherclive]

I don't understand the maker's denial of warranty - reading websites such as Applications for ABS Plastic Sheeting - A&C Plastics (acplasticsinc.com) ABS is used because of its strength and durability - it's used for many car components which are generally subject to far more use and vibration than caravan panels.

I wouldn't know where to start looking but it's worth considering getting a materials engineer report and sue the dealer under CRA for a manufacturing defect present at point of sale.

I notice your link doesn’t relate to caravan applications. ABS is a very good material but the selection of ABS for a particular function has to ensure that the design, manufacture and installation process fully comprehend the material properties and the components intended life cycle. Having had three ABS panels replaced on two caravans I would question whether the industry has fulfilled its responsibilities to ensure fitness for purpose in its use of ABS for large panels attached to a flexible box vehicle.

 

[Dustydog]

Also Clive the method for fixing was flawed. No pre drilled holes. But that was over 15 years ago on a Bailey.Surely Elddis did drill pilot holes 🤔.

 

[Buckman]

I tend to agree with Roger that the caravan industry has been aware for over 10 years of the shortcomings of using ABS panels on caravans as they do not like stress as per https://plasticextrusiontech.net/resources/what-is-abs-material/ which is why there is only a 1 year warranty on panels.
ABS or Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene is a common thermoplastic polymer typically used for injection moulding applications. This engineering plastic is popular due to its low production cost and the ease with which the material is machined by plastic manufacturers.
The crack is located where the front panel joins the roof and as you can see from the photo, the crack is just over an inch long and is located where there is a slight bend in the moulding. Not sure why they think it could be due to the reasons offered by the dealer.
In hindsight as said the caravan was thoroughly inspected in Oct and no issue. Next trip after the service was the a 90 mile round trip to a CL mainly on M5 and reasonably decent roads, however when we delivered the caravan to the dealer the main road to the dealership was closed and we had to use back roads which were very winding and bumpy.
Anyone who has travelled to Brean may be aware of these back roads. We followed the diversion signs as set up by the council and had to travel well below 30mph. Possibility the crack was waiting for us to travel on just such a road to manifest itself.
Either way a crack costing over £9000 to repair should not happen on a caravan that was just over 4 years old taking into consideration the original price paid the panel is certainly not durable under CRA 2015!

 

[Buckman]

Another thought occurred to me regarding the cracking of the ABS panels. Previously we had a 2016 Buccaneer Caravan purchased in July 2016. Within less than a week of delivery we experienced cracks in the front panel. The front panel was replaced under warranty.
Less than 3 months later the rear panel cracked and was replaced under warranty. A few months later the front panel cracked again at which pointed we rejected the caravan and took advice from WLS
Again this could demonstrate that the panels are not fit for purpose as we have had the same issue on two different caravans from the same manufacturer. Not sure if this will help my case as I still have all the documentation from the rejection of the previous caravan.
I had a chat with the AWS technicain who serviced the caravan last year in Oct and he told that he is very aware of front and rear panels cracking so gives them a thorough check and he catergorically states there was no crack at that time and is willing to put it in writing!
Obviously at this point we can't and don't want to reject the caravan as besides the crack it has been perfect. I am in contact with Which Legal Services for further advice.

 

[Raywood]

I agree however if dealers started putting pressure on the manufacturers by refusing to stock caravans with short life warranties on ABS panels just maybe manufacturers will upgrade the product.
I am of the opinion that the dealers are mainly too blame for not putting enough pressure on manufacturers for many shortcomings on caravans and other goods so manufacturers get away with supplying shoddy goods. The dealer then tries to put the onus on the consumer if the manufacturer does not want to honour a claim and often geto away with palming off the fault onto the consumer.

I am sure that the caravan makers will reimburse the dealers for claims they have to pay under the CRA as otherwise the dealers would not deal with them or go bankrupt. The warranty point is simply a ruse to avoid their responsibilities and shows up their lack of integrity.
the cracked panels are expensive to replace and must have cost Eldiss and the others substantial sums in replacing them. The problem does seem less acute now and I suspect the newer panels have been modified,