Crack in panel!

[Buckman]

I was not expecting you to take Elddis to the SCC, but these days firms seem to be far more responsive to Tweets or Facebook group postings, or some may even watch Forums. Bad press on social media will often get better response than a sternly worded letter.

TBH I have never looked for them on FB as I only use FB for the Buccaneer groups. BSAP group and Retired Caravanners. Don't contact anyone on FB. Thanks for the heads up. At this point I am letting the finance house do the running around as at the moment my plate is overflowing with another issue.

 

[Hutch]

Rest back and think about MRs Buckman. Our thought for you and MRs B.

 

[otherclive]

I understand that your priorities are with your wife, which I hope will be sorted before too long.
Here is the Twitter address of Eldiss, which might be an option if your discussion with the dealership doesn’t give you an outcome that you can accept.

@ElddisCaravans or
@_Elddis_

 

[Buckman]

Rest back and think about MRs Buckman. Our thought for you and MRs B.

Thank you.

 

[Dustydog]

Best wishes to Mrs Buckman , May her stay in Worcester Hospital be short and a swift return home . That should save everyone’s legs with the duff lifts. I’m taking my latest PCv mag and CAMC mag to the Bath Knee Clinic today. You’d think I could find something more interesting to read🤪🤪

 

[Buckman]

Best wishes to Mrs Buckman , May her stay in Worcester Hospital be short and a swift return home . That should save everyone’s legs with the duff lifts. I’m taking my latest PCv mag and CAMC mag to the Bath Knee Clinic today. You’d think I could find something more interesting to read🤪🤪

Take earphones to listen to music or even watch a film. Helps pass the time and I spent a lot of time in hospital in the past 18 months so talking from experience. Also helps you sleep. Found reading to be a strain on my eyes.

 

[Buckman]

Black Horse have contacted me regarding the issue of the crack. after discussing they have contacted the dealer and spoken with the dealer. The dealer has quoted approximately £4000 for the repair which is a replacement of the top front panel. They are reluctant to repair it in case it cracks again.
Elddis have rejected the claim stating it is due to external influences. I am unsure how external influences can affect the condition of the front roof panel unless it is accidental damage due to state of A roads. However surely the latter indicates that there is a design issue and the caravan was not designed for use on some British A roads.
I think time to consult legal services for more advice as wife will not be very happy and does not need this sort of issue right now.

 

[Dustydog]

Poor customer care from Elddis!
Let’s assume Elddis are correct and an extraneous influence caused the damage, ie accidental, I wonder what your own Insurers will say? They after all cover you for damage? May be interesting to see how they would argue that out amongst themselves. NB your Insurers would probably want you to specify a day and a time it happened. Bonkers I know! Good luck and hope Mrs B gets home soon

 

[Beachball]

Hi DD i use to take those and plus my fishing mag and What car use to hate night time but i love it when they brought me a cuppa

 

[Buckman]

Hi DD i use to take those and plus my fishing mag and What car use to hate night time but i love it when they brought me a cuppa

Hi BB, I think you have posted on the wrong thread as this thread is about a crack in a panel?

 

[Beachball]

Hi BB, I think you have posted on the wrong thread as this thread is about a crack in a panel?

That interesting looking at #77 #80#81 i would say those three are off track as well

 

[Buckman]

I understand that your priorities are with your wife, which I hope will be sorted before too long.
Here is the Twitter address of Eldiss, which might be an option if your discussion with the dealership doesn’t give you an outcome that you can accept.

@ElddisCaravans or
@_Elddis_

I found this 2year old thread started by yourself and it does seem that cracks are very common on ABS panels. https://forums.practicalcaravan.com/threads/cracked-end-panels.60565/

 

[otherclive]

I found this 2year old thread started by yourself and it does seem that cracks are very common on ABS panels. https://forums.practicalcaravan.com/threads/cracked-end-panels.60565/

Yes I had front and back on a new 2005 Series 5 Bailey. Both replaced under warranty. The a rear on a 2012/13 Sprite. Replaced in year five under warranty. No quibble. Only a couple of days back DD told of vans awaiting new panels at Chipping Sodbury Caravans. The issue with that era Bailey was poor installation leading to stress cracking around fasteners. So Bailey gripped the problem. The cracks on my Sprite were not local to a fastening. I recall Gagakev had one near a front window in his Fleetwood (?). Other makes such as Coachman and Eldiss as you know suffered.

It just tells me that some parts of the UK industry haven’t got a grip on the structural integrity, and then expect the customer or dealership to bear the cost of repairs. The most concerning aspect being will it affect a caravan post repair/replacement but in another area or even the same area again.

 

[Buckman]

It just tells me that some parts of the UK industry haven’t got a grip on the structural integrity, and then expect the customer or dealership to bear the cost of repairs. The most concerning aspect being will it affect a caravan post repair/replacement but in another area or even the same area again.

We are not exactly in a position or prepared to lash out £4000 to have a replacement panel on the caravan especially when one expects the goods to be durable for a lot longer than 4 years and 5 months.
If we do pay for the replacement panel, it will be covered under CRA 2015 for a period of 6 years and should it crack again, it would be very difficult for a dealer to deny responsibility taking into consideration that the panel was replaced due to the first one cracking!
However if the current one is replaced under CRA 2015 then the cover is only valid for the duration of the CRA 2015 from time of delivery so for another year and 7 months.
Interesting times ahead1

 

[Raywood]

No the panel will be covered for a reasonable period, which would be up to a court to assess. They are not allowed to fit inferior materials on the basis that the CRA time limit is about to expire, and in your case time to pursue them further should run from when you discovered the crack. and not the date you took delivery.

 

[Buckman]

I have been chasing the dealer for an official quote, but still no joy. I cannot do anything until I get an official quote for the repair.

 

[Hutch]

Buckman, I don't know which part of the country your in, but when my rear panel cracked and the dealer had gone out of buisness, these guys were fantastic and dealt with my warranty claim. And were willing to repair or replace the panel.
It's a good company to know.

Approved Workshop for Caravan Servicing | Motorhome Habitation near me

Our Mobile Workshop for caravan servicing and motorhome habitation checks covers Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire, Derbyshire

www.directleisurerepairs.co.uk

 

[Buckman]

Buckman, I don't know which part of the country your in, but when my rear panel cracked and the dealer had gone out of business, these guys were fantastic and dealt with my warranty claim. And were willing to repair or replace the panel.
It's a good company to know.

Approved Workshop for Caravan Servicing | Motorhome Habitation near me

Our Mobile Workshop for caravan servicing and motorhome habitation checks covers Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire, Derbyshire

www.directleisurerepairs.co.uk

Thanks. They are just over 100 miles away as we are in Worcestershire. Once I have explored all other avenues, if no joy then I can approach them.

 

[Hutch]

They were very good asked me for photos, and talked to Coachman, who then decided that they wanted the van back to them, CM, wanted me to take the van to Marquis in Northampton, when I said I could deliver it to Hull, they said when , I took it up the next day, and collected it a week later.
Hope all goes well for you.

 

[Buckman]

I wrote to Elddis asking them for their definition of the 10 year warranty for damp ingress and body integrity. Their reply is below;

As detailed in the vehicle handbook, plastic products are covered under the warranty agreement for one year, and manufacturing defects are covered for up to three years. It is during this period that all manufacturing defects would become apparent.

As your vehicle warranty began on the 27/10/2017, and the panel damage was reported on 16/02/2022, 4 and a half years after first registration, it is now outside of the warranty parameters.

Front and rear panels can crack for many reasons:
I. The ABS panel fractures/fissures have been caused by elevated stress levels imparted onto the affected panels.
II. The stress overload could have been caused by physical impacts.
III. The fractures/fissures affecting the ABS panel parent material could be as a result of the vehicle being towed over/travelled over abnormally rough road/off road surfaces. This results in elevated stress levels and abnormal flexing of the caravan structure and ABS cladding panels over and above our manufacturing design levels thus causing subsequent stress fissures/fractures to occur.

Water ingress arising as a result of the cracked panel will not be covered. The ten-year body integrity warranty cover is only applicable to issues as a result of a manufacturing defects only.

In my opinion as obviously no physical impact as would be claiming off insurance anyway according to the above due to design issues the caravan is unfit to cope with many British roads due to abnormal flexing of the panels. Also to my way of thinking, the top front panel is not up to standard resulting in cracks.
As pointed out in an earlier post the industry have been aware of this issue that ABS panels are not fit for purpose for over 10 years. A quick Google search on "Caravans, ABS panel cracks" brings up pages of the same or similar issues with ABS panels.
Our previous 2016 Buccaneer suffered even more with front and rear panels cracking within days of taking delivery. While the caravan was in the workshop having the rear panel replaced, a crack appeared in the front panel resulting in them having to change the front panel again. At that point we rejected the caravan.
Surely with our 2016 caravan also having cracks on the ABS panels this is further proof that the panels are not fit for purpose? I still have pictures filed away.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I must point out that just becasue some (not all) ABS panes may have cracked, it does not prove that all ABS panels are not fit for purpose.

It may still be the case there is a design or manufacturing fault which does not support the ABS panel correctly that allows the panel to be stressed beyond its yield points, so the crack in the panel is a symptom rather than the the panel itself being faulty .

But as age increases there is an increasing possibility the caravan may be exposed to excessive mechanical wear and tear or indeed other conditions that might precipitate the crack, and of course that increases the difficulty for customers to prove they have not caused excess wear and tear.

The fact is it needs a detailed independent expert engineering study to verify what the cause is, or if the manufacturers design specifications are inadequate. To investigate this possibility you would have to know what criteria the manufacturer actually specifies as the expected use case, and then if that use case is a gross under estimate of realistic conditions. This would be very very expensive to obtain, especially for a single user. - especially as some examples of the same model of caravan may remain crack free which would have to accepted as evidence that the design is not always flawed.

I suspect the manufacturer knows their products are not really adequately durable for British roads , but becasue they are bound by contract to the end-user they can hide behind the limitations of their warranty T&C's, and save time and money by ignoring out of warranty issues.

I believe the only way to bring real pressure to bear on the manufacturers would be to raise a class action.

 

[Buckman]

I must point out that just becasue some (not all) ABS panes may have cracked, it does not prove that all ABS panels are not fit for purpose.

It may still be the case there is a design or manufacturing fault which does not support the ABS panel correctly that allows the panel to be stressed beyond its yield points, so the crack in the panel is a symptom rather than the the panel itself being faulty .

But as age increases there is an increasing possibility the caravan may be exposed to excessive mechanical wear and tear or indeed other conditions that might precipitate the crack, and of course that increases the difficulty for customers to prove they have not caused excess wear and tear.

The fact is it needs a detailed independent expert engineering study to verify what the cause is, or if the manufacturers design specifications are inadequate. To investigate this possibility you would have to know what criteria the manufacturer actually specifies as the expected use case, and then if that use case is a gross under estimate of realistic conditions. This would be very very expensive to obtain, especially for a single user. - especially as some examples of the same model of caravan may remain crack free which would have to accepted as evidence that the design is not always flawed.

I suspect the manufacturer knows their products are not really adequately durable for British roads , but becasue they are bound by contract to the end-user they can hide behind the limitations of their warranty T&C's, and save time and money by ignoring out of warranty issues.

I believe the only way to bring real pressure to bear on the manufacturers would be to raise a class action.

Thanks I understand your very valid points however unfortunately it is the dealer that may have to bear the brunt of associated costs for replacement of the panel under CRA 2015.
More than likely the dealer will obviously try and deny responsibility for obvious reasons and I will need to fight my corner and demonstrate the reasons why the dealer should be responsible.
It is up to the dealer and not the consumer to put pressure on manufacturers to improve their product. No dealer, no sales outlet for manufacturer.

 

[otherclive]

Back in 2009 someone called Dusty Dog posted this ( see below) in reply to a concern raised by an Avondale owner re a cracked panel. Yet here we are some 13 years later and it’s still a hotly debated topic. If the motor industry were as poor I would still be buying Cataloy and Naval Jelly to maintain my bodywork integrity.

Looking at European caravans I notice that Adria, Knaus, Kip, Burstner, Fendt, Dethleff, Caravelair and Hobby don’t have large one piece rear panels. Their rear view shows a roof panel that curves over and downwards at the back where it joins the caravans vertical face with a horizontal seal. Not easy to see how Hymer do it but it doesn’t look like a single ABS sheet panel. See picture below.

Whilst it’s not in anyway conclusive could the UK caravan industry have gone for form over function in the design of caravans.





Circa 2009 by DD

“

Surely the dreaded ABS cracking problem is something crying out for an article in PC Mag?? It seems all the main manufacturers are having problems. WHY? Cheers Dustydog

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks I understand your very valid points however unfortunately it is the dealer that may have to bear the brunt of associated costs for replacement of the panel under CRA 2015.
More than likely the dealer will obviously try and deny responsibility for obvious reasons and I will need to fight my corner and demonstrate the reasons why the dealer should be responsible.
It is up to the dealer and not the consumer to put pressure on manufacturers to improve their product. No dealer, no sales outlet for manufacturer.

You keep referring to the Manufacturer and you did post their reply to your question, which gives the impression you are still pursuing the manufacture.

However, I began by pointing out how unlikely the manufacturer will pick up this crack given the time circumstances, I am disappointed but far from surprised by their reply, which is in keeping with their published T&C's.

However the problem I described in my last reply still exists, As its more than 6 months since you purchased the caravan, the CRA still requires you to provide enough evidence the crack is the result of latent defect in the design or construction of the caravan and that could be a costly and difficult process.

I hope I'm wrong, and things go well, but I do suspect the dealer will also try to avoid liability considering the likely cost of repair or the value of the caravan if they have to refund.

 

[Buckman]

Looking at European caravans I notice that Adria, Knaus, Kip, Burstner, Fendt, Dethleff, Caravelair and Hobby don’t have large one piece rear panels. Their rear view shows a roof panel that curves over and downwards at the back where it joins the caravans vertical face with a horizontal seal. Not easy to see how Hymer do it but it doesn’t look like a single ABS sheet panel. See picture below.

Whilst it’s not in anyway conclusive could the UK caravan industry have gone for form over function in the design of caravans.

The Buccaneer front panel is in two pieces the bottom part where the three windows are fitted and then the curved top section that meets the roof.

You keep referring to the Manufacturer and you did post their reply to your question, which gives the impression you are still pursuing the manufacture.

However, I began by pointing out how unlikely the manufacturer will pick up this crack given the time circumstances, I am disappointed but far from surprised by their reply, which is in keeping with their published T&C's.

However the problem I described in my last reply still exists, As its more than 6 months since you purchased the caravan, the CRA still requires you to provide enough evidence the crack is the result of latent defect in the design or construction of the caravan and that could be a costly and difficult process.

I hope I'm wrong, and things go well, but I do suspect the dealer will also try to avoid liability considering the likely cost of repair or the value of the caravan if they have to refund.

It was you who suggested getting a defintion from the manufacturer regarding the damp ingress warranty and a definition of body integrity. Those were the two questions asked and that was their reply. Typical cop out!