Crack in panel!

[ProfJohnL]

Unfortunately the Elddiss document is very clear, The 10yr body integrity head line is then detailed by it being linked specifically to the failure of seams, and as the warranty is offered by the manufacturer they can limit it in anyway they wish.

A crack in a a panel is breach of integrity, but its not a seam failure and thus by Elddis's definition its falls outside of teh integrity warranty terms and conditions.

It is interesting that the dealer has reported other similar failures, which begins to point to a design, construction or material failure, and that could be important, but as the caravan is now 4 years old it also fall out side of the manufacturers 3yr warranty.

All hat is left is the possibility of action under the CRA which has effect up to 6 years from date of purchase. However it is up to the owner to establish enough evidence that the fault was either due to poor design manufacture or materials or was not sufficiently durable; which as the product ages, become more difficult.

This is where other example of the same defect appearing might be advantageous, BUT its not a forgone conclusion it will be enough to get a court to agree the crack is the same fault and not been caused by other wear and tear.

 

[Hutch]

Getting away from the legale bit Cover the crack with clear Gorrilla tape. It works really well.

 

[Dustydog]

Unfortunately the Elddiss document is very clear, The 10yr body integrity head line is then detailed by it being linked specifically to the failure of seams, and as the warranty is offered by the manufacturer they can limit it in anyway they wish.

A crack in a a panel is breach of integrity, but its not a seam failure and thus by Elddis's definition its falls outside of teh integrity warranty terms and conditions.

It is interesting that the dealer has reported other similar failures, which begins to point to a design, construction or material failure, and that could be important, but as the caravan is now 4 years old it also fall out side of the manufacturers 3yr warranty.

All hat is left is the possibility of action under the CRA which has effect up to 6 years from date of purchase. However it is up to the owner to establish enough evidence that the fault was either due to poor design manufacture or materials or was not sufficiently durable; which as the product ages, become more difficult.

This is where other example of the same defect appearing might be advantageous, BUT its not a forgone conclusion it will be enough to get a court to agree the crack is the same fault and not been caused by other wear and tear.

I don’t agree Prof. The 10 year body integrity specifically relates to water ingress. A cracked panel is a different issue and imo falls within the overall general guarantee / warranty. The cracked panel as we have seen with others before is usually the result of poor construction methods resulting in an inherent latent defect , present at the point of original sale. I agree with you on the 3 year warranty but maybe that is irrelevant with a latent defect. Not good show on Elddis part. Looks like the poor old dealer will take a hammering here.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Frankly it doesn't matter if we agree or disagree on the interpretation of the document, its hoe Elddis interpret it and apply it. And unless its challenged and the challenge is upheld Elddis basically do what they like as there is no contract of sale between the manufacturer and the end user to be able to lever it with the wider CRA tests of reasonableness.

Its best to discuss the issue with the dealer, and hoping you wont have to go through the CRA process.

I agree we all know the problem is most likely due to poor manufacturing and morally is the manufacturers fault, but the way the UK's retail liabilities are enshrined it places the legal liability with the retailer, who is required not to sell faulty goods, so as far as the CRA is concerned, if the goods are faulty the retailer is at fault for selling them, and that is a risk that all retailers need to manage within their business plans.

Don't forget that many retailers make up to 40% (some niche products its even more) profit on low volume goods. That's a very healthy profit margin, and its that much becasue of the risk of having to deal with some problems with some products that aren't fully supported by the supply chain or manufacturer.

 

[Buckman]

Frankly it doesn't matter if we agree or disagree on the interpretation of the document, its hoe Elddis interpret it and apply it. And unless its challenged and the challenge is upheld Elddis basically do what they like as there is no contract of sale between the manufacturer and the end user to be able to lever it with the wider CRA tests of reasonableness.

Its best to discuss the issue with the dealer, and hoping you wont have to go through the CRA process.

I agree we all know the problem is most likely due to poor manufacturing and morally is the manufacturers fault, but the way the UK's retail liabilities are enshrined it places the legal liability with the retailer, who is required not to sell faulty goods, so as far as the CRA is concerned, if the goods are faulty the retailer is at fault for selling them, and that is a risk that all retailers need to manage within their business plans.

Don't forget that many retailers make up to 40% (some niche products its even more) profit on low volume goods. That's a very healthy profit margin, and its that much becasue of the risk of having to deal with some problems with some products that aren't fully supported by the supply chain or manufacturer.

Your last two posts have put it across appropriately. After the debacle with our 2016 caravan, we took some finance with a finance company so in essence they are the legal owners and it is up to them to resolve the issue.
What is strange is that Elddis have approved the water ingress repairs where it is damp, but not the crack? We are waiting for the dealer to provide the two quotes before we can discuss anything.
As a layman looking to buy a caravan any reasonable person reading the brochure where it states about the 10 year warranty and body integrity, a layman would assume that it covered all water ingress issues.
You only have access to the owner's manual once you have signed for the caravan and taken delivery. However can documentation in the owner's manual be taken as legally binding T&Cs?
However at the end of the day, on behalf of the owner of the caravan it should be up to the dealer to put pressure on the manufacturer to resolve the issue.

Whether it is resolved amicably or pursued higher, we are unsure whether to accept a repair costing a couple of hundred or to have the whole panel changed. I understand that if we pay we are covered by CRA 2015 for 6 years, but if it becomes a warranty job then unsure whether CRA 2015 will help in 3 or 4 years time.
If the same panel cracks again in a different area at a later stage probably not covered by CRA 2015 . However no issue with a totally new panel.

 

[Notmyvan]

In the 1980's there was a famous legal case (If you were in the Motor Trade) where an owner of a nearly new Range Rover had a defective Gearbox and he had been waiting over 3 months for the dealer to fix it and had taken the dealer to court for not repairing the gearbox. The Dealer won the case. His defence was that he could not get a new gearbox from Land Rover as they were not available. They were willing to change the gearbox but matters were out of their hands.
Since then of course things have improved for consumers in that especially when buying a Caravan if you have bought something which is defective you have 6 years to ask for a refund, and if you have paid a deposit of over £100 with a Credit Card, even better.
PS, Dealers know about the £100 Credit Card Limit, I bought a car last week from a dealer and they wanted a £99 deposit (over the phone) I asked if it could be £100 and the salesman agreed. )

 

[Buckman]

In the 1980's there was a famous legal case (If you were in the Motor Trade) where an owner of a nearly new Range Rover had a defective Gearbox and he had been waiting over 3 months for the dealer to fix it and had taken the dealer to court for not repairing the gearbox. The Dealer won the case. His defence was that he could not get a new gearbox from Land Rover as they were not available. They were willing to change the gearbox but matters were out of their hands.
Since then of course things have improved for consumers in that especially when buying a Caravan if you have bought something which is defective you have 6 years to ask for a refund, and if you have paid a deposit of over £100 with a Credit Card, even better.
PS, Dealers know about the £100 Credit Card Limit, I bought a car last week from a dealer and they wanted a £99 deposit (over the phone) I asked if it could be £100 and the salesman agreed. )

You do not have 6 years to ask for a refund. In the first 30 days from delivery it would apply. After that and within 6 months to need to give the dealer one chance at a repair before requesting a replacement or refund. After the 6 month period it is up to the consumer to prove that the fault existed on delviery but took "x" years to manifest itself. It must be remembered that if after the 30 days there is an issue and the repair takes 30 days, the 6 month period is suspended for that duration. We rejected our previous caravan at 11 months as it was still within the 30 day or 6 month period.
Sadly many caravans are now over £30k so S75 od CCA does not apply. Secondly you only need to pay £1 for goods costing in excess of £100 for S75 protection and not £100.

 

[Buckman]

This not our caravan, but photo is from FB Buccaneer group. It gives you an idea of the issue. As said a number of other owners have a similar issue. We are taking a ladder down to caravan today to take pictures.

 

[Dustydog]

Exactly where on the body are these types of cracks. ABS GRP or?
Defo looks like a stress crack caused at point of manufacture. Some years ago Bailey had similar problems with their ABS front / rear panels. No quibble replacements. Hope the Elddis boys do the same

 

[otherclive]

Exactly where on the body are these types of cracks. ABS GRP or?
Defo looks like a stress crack caused at point of manufacture. Some years ago Bailey had similar problems with their ABS front / rear panels. No quibble replacements. Hope the Elddis boys do the same

I had a Bailey front and rear panel replaced under warranty despite no water ingress the cracks were picked up by the dealership (Chipping Sudbury) and they knew where to look because 2005 S5 vans were beginning to exhibit cracks in the abs rear and front panels. My 2013 Sprite similarly had cracks in its rear abs panel picked up by the dealer. Some water ingress had developed. But Swift authorised a new panel in year 5. I think Ellis’s are shirking their the issue.

 

[Buckman]

I just posted a description and photos of the crack however the post has disappeared for some strange reason? To the right of the photo is the front. the crack is right in the start of the depression to accommodate the centre skylight which is above the front windows. Crack is about an inch long at present.
Apparently to do the job properly the top front panel needs to be removed so quite labour intensive. I do not know what they will have to do to do the repair.

 

[Dustydog]

I had a Bailey front and rear panel replaced under warranty despite no water ingress the cracks were picked up by the dealership (Chipping Sudbury) and they knew where to look because 2005 S5 vans were beginning to exhibit cracks in the abs rear and front panels. My 2013 Sprite similarly had cracks in its rear abs panel picked up by the dealer. Some water ingress had developed. But Swift authorised a new panel in year 5. I think Ellis’s are shirking their the issue.

Had a few new ones from Chipping Sodbury Caravans. A very decent first class Dealer.The Wyoming came from them👏👏.
I am a sceptic.I honestly believe once the non U.K. people get involved customer services drops. If the likes of Elddis become pedantic then we need to vote with our feet. Small print is not a defence in this Industry please

 

[Buckman]

As the handbook states that water ingress warranty cover is only for “permanently sealed seam joints”, I have emailed Elddis and asked them to provide me with a definition and justification as to why this does not extend to the crack in the panel that allows water ingress into our caravan.

I wonder if they will respond? I did make it quite clear in my email that I realise my contract was with the dealer and not the manufacturer.

We are stil waiting for the dealer to supply their photos and details of the two quotes. I think S75A of CCA plus CRA 2015 are going to be my best bet if dealer rejects liability.

 

[Dustydog]

As the handbook states that water ingress warranty cover is only for “permanently sealed seam joints”, I have emailed Elddis and asked them to provide me with a definition and justification as to why this does not extend to the crack in the panel that allows water ingress into our caravan.

I wonder if they will respond? I did make it quite clear in my email that I realise my contract was with the dealer and not the manufacturer.

We are stil waiting for the dealer to supply their photos and details of the two quotes. I think S75A of CCA plus CRA 2015 are going to be my best bet if dealer rejects liability.

Sorry to Labour the point can we move away from water ingress. A cracked panel is a different issue. You know my views. Good luck. Keep thinking outside the box😉😉

 

[Buckman]

Sorry to Labour the point can we move away from water ingress. A cracked panel is a different issue. You know my views. Good luck. Keep thinking outside the box😉😉

Thinking about it last night, the crack is probably an inch long and a very fine hairline crack. A crack like this can easily be over looked especially by a dealer as no damp reading in the locker underneath using a damp meter with a probe.
Question is how did the dealer even know to look at that particular area and identify such a small crack. Perhaps it is because they are aware of previous cracks in that area on other caravans? Even our AWS guy who is overly fussy and examines every inch overlooked this crack.

 

[Buckman]

Found the missing post. For some reason I had posted it in messages! Going senile!

The right of the picture is to the front of the caravan. The strip is running across the roof at the front of the caravan. The strip covers the join between the panel above the windows and the roof. At the point where the crack is the panel is moulded and the dark is where it is higher.

The second picture is across the caravan from offside to nearside as crack is on offside. To the left of the picture one can see the skylight window which is why there is the depression for the mould where the crack is and the crack is right on the bend of the moulding. To the right is the skylight for the lounge area.

To repair the crack properly, the top front panel probably needs to be removed which is why it is labour intensive and costly just to do a repair
.
When we first purchased the caravan on the inside we had a lot of issues with the outer frame moving away from the window frame. It took them three attempts to resolve the issue. However to resolve the issue the service manager stated "that he has advised that we CAN permanently bond the surround, or there is the possibility of adding extra screws to hold the surround up. He has mentioned though if we were to do so it may impede access to the blind in the rooflight should you ever have an issue where the blind needed to be removed. "
If top front panel has to be removed there could be further issues with the blind due to the boding to resolve the earlier issue however I am unsure.

 

[Raywood]

The Eldiss warranty is nowhere near as good as the headlines state and excludes things to the point you sometimes wonder more what it actually covers although Eldiss is by no means alone in that as most others look similar. This looks like a case that can still be pursued against the dealer though, and I would say the cost gives you little choice. personally I am pretty sure that when Eldiss see that their dealers are going to have to cover the claim they will reimburse them, or otherwise they would have no dealers left.

 

[Buckman]

The Eldiss warranty is nowhere near as good as the headlines state and excludes things to the point you sometimes wonder more what it actually covers although Eldiss is by no means alone in that as most others look similar. This looks like a case that can still be pursued against the dealer though, and I would say the cost gives you little choice. personally I am pretty sure that when Eldiss see that their dealers are going to have to cover the claim they will reimburse them, or otherwise they would have no dealers left.

It will be interesting to see if Elddis responds to my request regarding body integrity and permanently sealed joints.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A panel crack is not a failure of a sealed joint, its a failure of a component, and as such if it were within their warranty period it should have been covered by that warranty. However the caravan is now out of its 3 component warranty, and because its not a failure of a permanently sealed joint, its not likely to be accepted as a fault under the10 year body integrity policy which is specifically limited to failures of sealed joints.

Don't forget that the manufacturers warranty has nothing to do with the Consumer Rights Act and the criteria for establishing liability does not include things like reasonable durability, or faulty design, so it looks as though Elddis can wash their hands of your vans cracked panel. Morally it is of course wrong, and they should be more responsible for the quality and durability of their products, but legally they are not responsible to you.

The chances are they are not legally responsible to their dealers either. However we have all seen how when a consumer kicks up enough of a fuss, and involve high profile reporters and consumer organisations which bring highlight the case, and to avoid bad publicity the manufacturer who do resolve the problem under the guise of a gesture of goodwill. How unfair that is to all the other peopel with similar problems who aren't able to generate the public interest in their plight.

However, the question arises of how and why your panel has cracked. Without a detailed investigation its impossible to conclude the problem is a design or manufacturing fault, becasue there are other possibilities, which might not be the fault of the manufacturer. Whilst there may be some other caravans with a similar crack, the fact that not all caravan of the same model have developed the crack proves its not necessarily a design or manufacturing faults, so it could be down to how the owner is using it.

Its all going to be difficult becasue of the age of the caravan,d the fact its now out of the manufacturers 3 year warranty, and apparenlt excluded from the integrity warranty as its not a seam fault.

I hope Elddis prove me wrong.

 

[Buckman]

A panel crack is not a failure of a sealed joint, its a failure of a component, and as such if it were within their warranty period it should have been covered by that warranty. However the caravan is now out of its 3 component warranty, and because its not a failure of a permanently sealed joint, its not likely to be accepted as a fault under the10 year body integrity policy which is specifically limited to failures of sealed joints.

Don't forget that the manufacturers warranty has nothing to do with the Consumer Rights Act and the criteria for establishing liability does not include things like reasonable durability, or faulty design, so it looks as though Elddis can wash their hands of your vans cracked panel. Morally it is of course wrong, and they should be more responsible for the quality and durability of their products, but legally they are not responsible to you.

The chances are they are not legally responsible to their dealers either. However we have all seen how when a consumer kicks up enough of a fuss, and involve high profile reporters and consumer organisations which bring highlight the case, and to avoid bad publicity the manufacturer who do resolve the problem under the guise of a gesture of goodwill. How unfair that is to all the other peopel with similar problems who aren't able to generate the public interest in their plight.

However, the question arises of how and why your panel has cracked. Without a detailed investigation its impossible to conclude the problem is a design or manufacturing fault, becasue there are other possibilities, which might not be the fault of the manufacturer. Whilst there may be some other caravans with a similar crack, the fact that not all caravan of the same model have developed the crack proves its not necessarily a design or manufacturing faults, so it could be down to how the owner is using it.

Its all going to be difficult becasue of the age of the caravan,d the fact its now out of the manufacturers 3 year warranty, and apparenlt excluded from the integrity warranty as its not a seam fault.

I hope Elddis prove me wrong.

Not sure why you think there is a 3 year warranty on panels because as per the documentation I posted, the warranty on panels is only one year?

However I would value your opinion on what you as a professional would regard as "body integrity"? I would have thought that damp ingress and body integrity were two different areas?

ABS does not like bends according to ABS experts that I found on a Google search and apparently it is quite common for it to crack on a bend.

However with searching I came across a company that repairs cracked ABS panels using sonic welding. Apparently using sonic welding fuses the two pieces due to the plastic content in ABS together and you cannot see the repair.

Not sure if using this method negates the need to remove the front roof panel as that will save a lot of labour however the strip will need to be removed as the crack starts from under it?

Lastly I am sure that the dealer knew exactly where to look to find such a small hairline crack which means other caravans of the same brand and model have suffered similar issues

 

[otherclive]

Not sure why you think there is a 3 year warranty on panels because as per the documentation I posted, the warranty on panels is only one year?

However I would value your opinion on what you as a professional would regard as "body integrity"? I would have thought that damp ingress and body integrity were two different areas?

ABS does not like bends according to ABS experts that I found on a Google search and apparently it is quite common for it to crack on a bend.

However with searching I came across a company that repairs cracked ABS panels using sonic welding. Apparently using sonic welding fuses the two pieces due to the plastic content in ABS together and you cannot see the repair.

Not sure if using this method negates the need to remove the front roof panel as that will save a lot of labour however the strip will need to be removed as the crack starts from under it?

Lastly I am sure that the dealer knew exactly where to look to find such a small hairline crack which means other caravans of the same brand and model have suffered similar issues

Motor cycle fairings are often abs and can be repaired such that you cannot tell that it had been damaged in the first place

 

[Dustydog]

Not sure why you think there is a 3 year warranty on panels because as per the documentation I posted, the warranty on panels is only one year?

However I would value your opinion on what you as a professional would regard as "body integrity"? I would have thought that damp ingress and body integrity were two different areas?

ABS does not like bends according to ABS experts that I found on a Google search and apparently it is quite common for it to crack on a bend.

However with searching I came across a company that repairs cracked ABS panels using sonic welding. Apparently using sonic welding fuses the two pieces due to the plastic content in ABS together and you cannot see the repair.

Not sure if using this method negates the need to remove the front roof panel as that will save a lot of labour however the strip will need to be removed as the crack starts from under it?

Lastly I am sure that the dealer knew exactly where to look to find such a small hairline crack which means other caravans of the same brand and model have suffered similar issues

I agree. The Elddis agreement only covers panels for one year

https://elddis.co.uk/help-support/warrantyhttps://elddis.co.uk/help-support/warranty

Like others I have firsthand experience of similar problems with Bailey ABS panels. It was caused by sloppy manufacturing “punching” the screw through without pilot holes. The panel was stressed at point of manufacture. Bailey recognised this and changed a high number of panels. Now sorted. IMO your problem is an inherent latent defect caused by either poor materials or shoddy production methods.
Proving it as suggested by the Prof is not easy. . You could consult a Forensic Scientist or a recognised plastic materials expert.
Finally it’s not all bad. There are motor cycles repairers who specialise in ABS crack repairs. Good luck

 

[Dustydog]

Sorry Dave my note was delayed and says the same as you on motor bike fairings 👍👍

 

[DaveA1]

Motor cycle fairings are often abs and can be repaired such that you cannot tell that it had been damaged in the first place

If push comes to shove and you have to stand the cost, I believe any good body repair shop will repair for a fraction of the cost.
As O.C says' they can be repaired.

And without paying caravan industry costs.

Did this repair myself using similar materials.

 

[ProfJohnL]

If I got the warranty period wrong I appologise.

I'm trying to prepare you for how I suspect Elddis will respond to your situation.

The caravan's standard manufacturers warranty has expired, and all that remains is the manufacturers "body integrity warranty"

In both cases these warranties are not a legal requirement, so the manufacturer can define how they operate, what they cover and what their liability is if a failure does occur. They are not obliged to listen to anyone else's interpretation of wording.

However in my opinion the wording of the Elddis "Body Integrity" cover very clearly states the limit of their liability is to the seals between the panels, not the panels themselves.

Unfortunately a crack such as the one you have illustrated is not a failure of a seam or joint between the panels, and as such I doubt Elddis accept liability for it.

As I wrote previously I hope I'm wrong.