Crack in panel!

[Buckman]

Motor cycle fairings are often abs and can be repaired such that you cannot tell that it had been damaged in the first place

The issue here is that you cannot access both sides of the roof front panel which is why I think there may be a need to remove it as the crack runs under the strip. Hope I am wrong?

 

[Dustydog]

If I got the warranty period wrong I appologise.

I'm trying to prepare you for how I suspect Elddis will respond to your situation.

The caravan's standard manufacturers warranty has expired, and all that remains is the manufacturers "body integrity warranty"

In both cases these warranties are not a legal requirement, so the manufacturer can define how they operate, what they cover and what their liability is if a failure does occur. They are not obliged to listen to anyone else's interpretation of wording.

However in my opinion the wording of the Elddis "Body Integrity" cover very clearly states the limit of their liability is to the seals between the panels, not the panels themselves.

Unfortunately a crack such as the one you have illustrated is not a failure of a seam or joint between the panels, and as such I doubt Elddis accept liability for it.

As I wrote previously I hope I'm wrong.

True Prof but all is not lost.

There is a good track record on various web sites about cracks in these panels.

Elddis will do their best to avoid liability.

Why do they hold such a massive reserve figure in their accounts for product problems?

From my past experiences I am convinced this is an Inherent Latent Defect which with a bit of thought can be proven.
Not that long ago Elddis had problems with panel end caps cracking. Their solution was an add on cap over the damaged cap. Some of those have started to go wrong as the cracks beneath have spread.
Remember the De Havilland Comet cracks? We can’t have that happen to Buckman.
Anyway at the very worst he still has the might of the Law on his side. I suspect the Dealer will also fall on his sword😉

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is so far an unproven assumption that Buckman's problem is a fault of either design or manufacture, but if its is accepted as such then there is strong possibility the CRA will cover it.

However the lead question on this thread is will the manufacturer cover the cost through any of its warranty schemes, and I am almost certain that the manufacturer will not cover it as they have no legal obligation to cover it.

As for the manufacturer holding a warranty reserve, I think you will find most of the manufacturers will hold a similar proportion of their profits to cover warranty costs, but not for out of warranty claims (which they can in most cases legitimately avoid) but for claims that do fall into the warranty window. This rather supports the view the caravan industry still has major unresolved quality assurance issues.

As consumers we are lucky to have the CRA but unfortunately dealers do not have the same sort of protection against shoddy caravan manufacturers, as their trading relationship is governed by commercial contracts between dealerships and manufacturers, and like the car industry before it, things are usually loaded in favour of the manufacturer.

I am still amazed how the manufacturers haven't grasped the reality of how they could radically improve their profitability and customer satisfaction by taking more care during the design and construction of their products without actually spending a lot more to get there.

 

[Raywood]

I do agree that proving that this is a manufacturing defect has to be achieved. The dealer though seems to have done it for them by confirming they have had others with the same problem. That would be a major stumbling block to defending provided they do not backtrack. Personally I think given the age of the caravan a favourable compromise might be the best way forward.

 

[Buckman]

I do agree that proving that this is a manufacturing defect has to be achieved. The dealer though seems to have done it for them by confirming they have had others with the same problem. That would be a major stumbling block to defending provided they do not backtrack. Personally I think given the age of the caravan a favourable compromise might be the best way forward.

If the cost of the repair is not too high, rather than have the aggro we would probably pay as that gets the job done quickly.
However the concern here is once the overall CRA 2016 has expired and another crack develops elsewhere on the same panel, where does that leave the consumer as the second crack will not be covered by CRA 2015 that only applies to 1st crack although there is a Solid 10 year warranty for damp ingress and body integrity?
Could one argue using the initial CRA 2016 covering from date of delivery stating that instead of a repair the panel should have been exchanged. So far I have had some very helpful information from different perspectives and want to tackle the situation with as much factual ammunition as possible if we run into issues.
Dealer still has not replied to my request for the photos and the quotes for a repair or a replacement despite chasing them again on Thursday.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...However the concern here is once the overall CRA 2016 has expired and another crack develops elsewhere on the same panel, where does that leave the consumer as the second crack will not be covered by CRA 2015 that only applies to 1st crack although there is a Solid 10 year warranty for damp ingress and body integrity?
...

You seem to be continuing to be labouring under the impression the manufacturers 10 year body integrity will be triggered by water ingress, Strictly that has not been established as the control criteria used by Elddis, and as previously stated from the documentation you have supplied Elddis only offer the integrity aspect on the basis of a failed body seam, not a crack in the panel, so if my interpretation of the document is correct then you have no claim under the integrity policy for the crack. and of course the normal manufacturers warranty has expired.

That leaves you with the CRA 2015 with your seller. As you know the CRA has strict time limits on the sellers liability, and once that period expires you have no legal reason to initiate a new claim against the seller. Realistically any product that lasts 6 years (5 in Scotland) is really doing alright but its increasingly likely that wear and tear may start to affect the durability. But if the seller effects a repair, the repair must of course also be done to a reasonable standard and the CRA might be reset for the items involved with the repair, but that might not cover any new cracks in the same or other panels.

But it still has to be established if the cracks you have are the result of an inherent design or manufacturing fault, or could it be due to other causes beyond the control of the manufacturer.

Its not a foregone conclusion the cracks are covered by the CRA.

 

[Dustydog]

Seems to me you have established there are limitations on the Body Integrity Water Ingress Warranty. Week thrashed out here. CRA 2015 does of course specifically deal with Unfair Contract Terms . Elddis have been very specific in their description from the outset. One to think about a bit more?

Next you have demonstrated there is a Patent Defect , ie the crack.
Also , quite correctly , you are concerned more cracks may appear, known as Latent Defects.
Do Elddis say in their advertising literature “ Our panels crack within four years”? No! But to deny you restitution under the Main section of the Warranty, One year, that imo is grossly unreasonable as far as a Latent Defect goes. You may argue the current Patent Defect is a manifestation of an original Latent Defect present at time of construction, point of sale and thus the One year warranty kick in.

I believe you can apply the Patent and Latent Defect to the main One year warranty.

I‘ve cribbed the following which will help you appreciate your options.It brings some Court Case Precedents to the table.

”Latent Defect Assessment
► Baxall Securities Ltd v. Sheard Walshaw Partnership (2002) discussed latent defects.
► ‘The concept of a latent defect is not a difficult one. It means a concealed flaw. What is a flaw? It
is the actual defect in the workmanship or design . . .’
► But when is a concealed flaw in workmanship or design (and for that matter materials) to be regarded as observable even though not actually observed?
► Riverstone Meat Pty Ltd v. Lancashire Shipping Company Ltd (1961) – a case that concerned the carriage of goods by sea – it was decided that defects were not latent if discoverable by the exercise of due diligence.
www.surveyorexpert.co.uk

SECTION 2 - DEFECTS
Latent Defects – Reasonable Examination
► In Rotherham MBC v. Frank Haslam Milan & Co Ltd and M. J. Gleeson (Northern) Ltd (1996) – a building case concerning the suitability of materials – the term latent defect was described as meaning
► ‘in its widest sense a . . . failure in work or materials to conform to contract in a respect not apparent on reasonable examination’.
► In this case it was not appreciated by the specifier or builder at the time of specification or supply – and could not have been ascertained by the customary examination available – that the specified materials suffered from an inherent characteristic that rendered them unsuitable for the purpose for which they had been specified. The defect was therefore truly latent.
www.surveyorexpert.co.uk

 

[Buckman]

Not sure why your post has shows as a good, but thanks as very informative. As per another post I did not think I was labouring the point about manufacturer's warranty as I can only use CRA 2015 against the dealer and not the manufacturer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Even with Dusty's venerable work in digging out these cases examples, Buckmans contract is with the seller not the manufacturer.

Also as yet the crack has not been proven to be a defect latent or otherwise, and that could be the sticking point, obtaining sufficient evidence that it is a latent defect. The other party could present alternative scenarios as to how teh crack(s) might have occured other than a manufacturing defect.

I hope the dealer does accept it, but they could legitimately challenge the assertion.

 

[Buckman]

Even with Dusty's venerable work in digging out these cases examples, Buckmans contract is with the seller not the manufacturer.

Also as yet the crack has not been proven to be a defect latent or otherwise, and that could be the sticking point, obtaining sufficient evidence that it is a latent defect. The other party could present alternative scenarios as to how teh crack(s) might have occured other than a manufacturing defect.

I hope the dealer does accept it, but they could legitimately challenge the assertion.

They can try, but think that ultimately they may lose!

 

[Dustydog]

Even with Dusty's venerable work in digging out these cases examples, Buckmans contract is with the seller not the manufacturer.

Also as yet the crack has not been proven to be a defect latent or otherwise, and that could be the sticking point, obtaining sufficient evidence that it is a latent defect. The other party could present alternative scenarios as to how teh crack(s) might have occured other than a manufacturing defect.

I hope the dealer does accept it, but they could legitimately challenge the assertion.

Thanks Prof
Ours is to give Buckman as many potential resolution ideas as possible whether credible or not? We all know his contractual position but as he requested a while back we are all trying to think outside the box rather than give a legal opinion. So yes we know about CRA,Dealer etc but at the moment that does not preclude him from seeking other resolutions including Elddis.
It’s high time manufacturers were also brought to account!

 

[ProfJohnL]

You need first to gather enough evidence to show the crack is the result of a design or manufacturing defect beyond reasonable doubt, then to start making waves through high profile media, programmes like Rip Of Britain or Watchdog etc, or Consumer Association, or even the just getting the story told in a Practical Caravan editorial or similar well respected magazines.

Then its amazing how these companies capitulate and do the right thing as "A gesture of goodwill" without accepting liability. But I do feel sorry for all other punters with similar problems who can't then play the same game to get the remedy.

The other solution is a class action which is an expensive and time (and money) consuming processor a possibly a super complaint which has to be orchestrated by an approved organisation such as the Consumer Association.

Good luck but I'm not holding my breath....

 

[otherclive]

You need first to gather enough evidence to show the crack is the result of a design or manufacturing defect beyond reasonable doubt, then to start making waves through high profile media, programmes like Rip Of Britain or Watchdog etc, or Consumer Association, or even the just getting the story told in a Practical Caravan editorial or similar well respected magazines.

Then its amazing how these companies capitulate and do the right thing as "A gesture of goodwill" without accepting liability. But I do feel sorry for all other punters with similar problems who can't then play the same game to get the remedy.

The other solution is a class action which is an expensive and time (and money) consuming processor a possibly a super complaint which has to be orchestrated by an approved organisation such as the Consumer Association.

Good luck but I'm not holding my breath....

Perhaps another option is to point Eldiss in the direction of Forums where there is a live debate on a topic that may influence future buyers of Eldiss caravans, whether new or pre owned. Even Tweets can get astonishing results as these days companies monitor tweets often in real time.

 

[Buckman]

Perhaps another option is to point Eldiss in the direction of Forums where there is a live debate on a topic that may influence future buyers of Eldiss caravans, whether new or pre owned. Even Tweets can get astonishing results as these days companies monitor tweets often in real time.

The only way a consumer may be able to get a manufacturer into a small claim's court is to call them as a material witness to testify on the quality of the goods or something along those lines that they sold to the dealer. Not sure if you can do this in a small claims court?

I have been getting some excellent legal advice regarding CRA 2015 from Which consumer that will help my case so all the advice and extra ammo helps.

 

[Beachball]

If push comes to shove and you have to stand the cost, I believe any good body repair shop will repair for a fraction of the cost.
As O.C says' they can be repaired.

And without paying caravan industry costs.

Did this repair myself using similar materials.

View attachment 2994View attachment 2995

Looks like you are handy with your hands very nice

 

[Buckman]

If push comes to shove and you have to stand the cost, I believe any good body repair shop will repair for a fraction of the cost.
As O.C says' they can be repaired.

And without paying caravan industry costs.

Did this repair myself using similar materials.

View attachment 2994View attachment 2995

I agree that it may be more effective to stand the cost depending on the cost. The panel itself is probably not an issue to repair, however accessing it as there is a possibility that other items need to be removed to access the panel as crack is also under the strip. I am not sure if the panel has to be removed to do the job correctly?

 

[Raywood]

You seem to be continuing to be labouring under the impression the manufacturers 10 year body integrity will be triggered by water ingress, Strictly that has not been established as the control criteria used by Elddis, and as previously stated from the documentation you have supplied Elddis only offer the integrity aspect on the basis of a failed body seam, not a crack in the panel, so if my interpretation of the document is correct then you have no claim under the integrity policy for the crack. and of course the normal manufacturers warranty has expired.

That leaves you with the CRA 2015 with your seller. As you know the CRA has strict time limits on the sellers liability, and once that period expires you have no legal reason to initiate a new claim against the seller. Realistically any product that lasts 6 years (5 in Scotland) is really doing alright but its increasingly likely that wear and tear may start to affect the durability. But if the seller effects a repair, the repair must of course also be done to a reasonable standard and the CRA might be reset for the items involved with the repair, but that might not cover any new cracks in the same or other panels.

But it still has to be established if the cracks you have are the result of an inherent design or manufacturing fault, or could it be due to other causes beyond the control of the manufacturer.

Its not a foregone conclusion the cracks are covered by the CRA.

Prof you do refer to six years and five years from the date of sale as the time limit for making a claim, but this is not true. Time runs from the point that you could reasonably aware of your right to make the claim, which in most cases is when the defect comes to light. The rider to that is that if you should have been aware of the problem earlier time runs from then. A failure to have the caravan serviced and the defect should reasonably have been found then, could be an example of this.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof you do refer to six years and five years from the date of sale as the time limit for making a claim, but this is not true. Time runs from the point that you could reasonably aware of your right to make the claim, which in most cases is when the defect comes to light. The rider to that is that if you should have been aware of the problem earlier time runs from then. A failure to have the caravan serviced and the defect should reasonably have been found then, could be an example of this.

When I refer to the point of purchase, I really should make it clear its from the point of taking possession of the goods, not from the point of signing the purchase order.

 

[Buckman]

Prof you do refer to six years and five years from the date of sale as the time limit for making a claim, but this is not true. Time runs from the point that you could reasonably aware of your right to make the claim, which in most cases is when the defect comes to light. The rider to that is that if you should have been aware of the problem earlier time runs from then. A failure to have the caravan serviced and the defect should reasonably have been found then, could be an example of this.

I have known about CRA 2015 for years, but at the moment I am not totally sure of my rights to claim a repair under CRA 2015 although I have a good understanding of it.

General question. Nothing to do with current issue as it now seems I have plenty of ammo, but if any manufacturer offers a 10 year warranty and you need to make a claim, do you still claim through the dealer although technically it is no longer their responsibility.

 

[Dustydog]

You must consult your own Contract wherein lies the answer.

I took the following from Elddis website. It is very clear you must go via the Dealer. Do check your own.
BTW You do have demonstrable evidence all the required services have been carried our on time , by an Approved Elddis Workshop, to Elddis standards?
Ten Year Water Ingress and Body Integrity Warranty

Elddis, Compass, Xplore and Buccaneer products are covered against water ingress damage for 10 years from the original date of purchase of a new product. This applies to water ingress through any permanently sealed seam joints.

In order to comply with the terms of the above cover the following conditions must be met:


Reporting a fault

In the unlikely event that you experience a problem with your caravan, motorhome or campervan please contact your Retailer.

It is with the Retailer that your contract of sale exists and consequently they have the responsibility to ensure any complaints and warranty issues are addressed. Any other approved Elddis, Compass, Xplore and Buccaneer Retailer or Service Centre may carry out work at their convenience or discretion, but are not obliged to do so.

 

[Buckman]

You must consult your own Contract wherein lies the answer.

I took the following from Elddis website. It is very clear you must go via the Dealer. Do check your own.
BTW You do have demonstrable evidence all the required services have been carried our on time , by an Approved Elddis Workshop, to Elddis standards?
Ten Year Water Ingress and Body Integrity Warranty

Elddis, Compass, Xplore and Buccaneer products are covered against water ingress damage for 10 years from the original date of purchase of a new product. This applies to water ingress through any permanently sealed seam joints.

In order to comply with the terms of the above cover the following conditions must be met:


Reporting a fault

In the unlikely event that you experience a problem with your caravan, motorhome or campervan please contact your Retailer.

It is with the Retailer that your contract of sale exists and consequently they have the responsibility to ensure any complaints and warranty issues are addressed. Any other approved Elddis, Compass, Xplore and Buccaneer Retailer or Service Centre may carry out work at their convenience or discretion, but are not obliged to do so.

Thanks for the above. Servicing is all up to date.

 

[otherclive]

Cracked panels must be the bane of the industry because even private, or dealer warranties usually exclude them whether there is water ingress or not. I had a van that came with the top spec MBG warranty. That excluded cracks in plastic body work and component. Fortunately it was still covered by Swifts warranty and in year five it had a new rear abs panel.

 

[Dustydog]

Cracked panels must be the bane of the industry because even private, or dealer warranties usually exclude them whether there is water ingress or not. I had a van that came with the top spec MBG warranty. That excluded cracks in plastic body work and component. Fortunately it was still covered by Swifts warranty and in year five it had a new rear abs panel.

Bailey as you experienced too Clive had problems with ABS panels. I remember being at Chipping Sodbury Caravans in 2010 watching 8 rear ABS panels delivered. 👍👍No quibble. Materials have changed. I thought most had moved away from ABS?
Swift are one of the few that have actually done “recalls “ where structure problems have arisen. When the lengthy water ingress warranties were first introduced they gave great comfort to the owner. I suspect if we were to compare today’s warranties with those of ten years ago we will be very disappointed

 

[Buckman]

Bailey as you experienced too Clive had problems with ABS panels. I remember being at Chipping Sodbury Caravans in 2010 watching 8 rear ABS panels delivered. 👍👍No quibble. Materials have changed. I thought most had moved away from ABS?
Swift are one of the few that have actually done “recalls “ where structure problems have arisen. When the lengthy water ingress warranties were first introduced they gave great comfort to the owner. I suspect if we were to compare today’s warranties with those of ten years ago we will be very disappointed

Our previous Buccaneer on delivery front panel cracked around offside grab handle. Took the dealer 3 months before they were able to replace the panel. Knowing what I now know I should have rejected it at that point.
Shortly afterwards rear panel started cracking also. That was replaced however within less than a month after front panel was replaced it cracked again. At that point I got in a AWS technician to do an inspection and he picked up a number of things that I had missed. When they had replaced the front panel they had cracked the front skylight in a place that you could not normally see.
At that point we rejected the caravan under the 30 day time frame although a 11 months old as believe it or not due to issues it was still within the 30 day time frame!

 

[otherclive]

The only way a consumer may be able to get a manufacturer into a small claim's court is to call them as a material witness to testify on the quality of the goods or something along those lines that they sold to the dealer. Not sure if you can do this in a small claims court?

I have been getting some excellent legal advice regarding CRA 2015 from Which consumer that will help my case so all the advice and extra ammo helps.

I was not expecting you to take Elddis to the SCC, but these days firms seem to be far more responsive to Tweets or Facebook group postings, or some may even watch Forums. Bad press on social media will often get better response than a sternly worded lettter.