David Bellamy

Mar 14, 2005
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The rant by DB has raised a few hackles.

I intensely distrust this man because as a botanist he claims to be a climatologist.

For those who wish to get a feel for the man do have a look at

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/05/10/junk-science/
Monbiot - Guardian Journalist who I disagree with on some points but agree totally on others.

My own position is that Global Warming is an very real issue - but selecting a small minority to attack rather than dealing with the main problems - Cement Production and Air Travel.

David Bellamy states that Wind Turbines are bad because it is not sustainable!

So when is the wind going to stop?

Have a read - it really is good thought provoking stuff. Catch the regular column in the Guardian
 
Jul 12, 2005
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Clive, its true. The wind will stop when the earth gets destroyed. So why invest in it? ;-)

I just sent a long and "colourful" mail to Bellamyca@aol.com to outline his mistakes and ask him to resign and give the caravan industry a break!
 
Jan 19, 2008
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I dont know about the worth of wind turbines except that experts in the field say we need thousands just to power a small town. There is no surplus. What I do know is that they are destructive to migratory birds and raptors like sea eagles.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I suppose it is down to the opportunity cost. Whatever we do will have repercussions.

I cannot help but feel that trying to generate energy centrally and then ship it about is a little out of phase with what we could be doing in a few years time.

Is it not feasible that in years to come with technology advances that the roofs of our houses will be solar cells and have a couple of wind vanes?

With metered water it is viable to collect rainwater and filter it now and save money as a result.

If we could all produce 25% or 50% of power needed - a heck of a saving.
 
Dec 16, 2003
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Some time ago a friend bought solar panels in the States, they were professional state of the art flexible "table mat" style that could be used with 12 or 24 volt systems.

Even in winter these high performance panels supply power charging batteries and running lights and phones, laptop etc.

Cost was under well
 
Mar 14, 2005
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These do called green members, environmentalists, etc. call them what you like want their way when it suits them. Years ago a scheme was studied to provide a barrage with tidal turbines to generate electricity in the River Severn instead of constructing a second bridge. There was strong objections to this on various issues, the main ones being:

1) The sewage from Gloucester - not long after the go ahead was given for the new bridge a sewage treatment works was constructed to serve Gloucester and the surrounding area.

2) Wildlife at Slimbridge would be lost - fair enough certain wildlife would be lost but nature would correct itself and new wildlife appear there. Also which is more important wildlife at present or the long term preservation of wildlife?

3) The spring and autumn equinox tides would be disrupted and the Severn bore would not take place - a tidal wave that occurrs twice a year.

If the barrage had been constructed the Aberthaw coal fired pwer station and the neuclier power station at Hinkly Point could have been disposed off. Incidently Hinkly Point is the same as Chernobyl except ours is better maintained.

It is time these "headbangers" got their act together and put their brain into action befor their mouth. Incidently Dr. Bellamy made a statement not so long ago that global warming was a natural state as it can be traced back in history of similar happenings of both global warming and ice age.

No doubt I will be pulled up on this but cannot for the life of me see what the fuss is about when the experts reckon that the damage will be spread over at least a 1000 years if not longer. I will be dead and buried and rotted away long before this and in this space of time goodness only knows what man will have achieved.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Some time ago a friend bought solar panels in the States, they were professional state of the art flexible "table mat" style that could be used with 12 or 24 volt systems.

Even in winter these high performance panels supply power charging batteries and running lights and phones, laptop etc.

Cost was under well
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Colin I dont know if you remember but Cardiff Bay was another which had problems over a barrage like the Severn Estuary. One of the main reasons (and right ones as far as I'm concerned were the destruction of saltwater flats and the feeding grounds of 1000s of waders and migratory birds. If I also remembered rightly there was opposition from shell fisherman.The following is a BBC report on the Cardiff scheme dated Friday, 19 November, 1999.

International wildlife site.

The mudflats at the mouths of the tidal rivers Taff and Ely have sustained huge numbers of waterbirds and the area was considered a site of international importance for migrating wildlife.

Flooding the mudflats permanently meant the displacement of those birds.

Friends of the Earth and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds waged a 10-year campaign against the plan.

The pressure groups took their challenge to the dam as far as Europe.

But the economic benefits to south east Wales outweighed the environmental concerns, and the EU let the scheme go ahead as a special case.

Farmland flooded.

Under the deal with the EU, compensation for the loss of the mudflats meant creating a new wildlife habitat by flooding 1,000 acres of farmland, 15 miles further along the coast in the Gwent Levels, with sewage water.

Farmers then joined the anti-barrage protests, fearing polluted pools would be created that would damage surrounding farmland.

At the time, FoE Director Tony Juniper said: "They are destroying a saline mudflat and creating a freshwater marsh.

"It's like knocking down the Tower of Pisa and building a cinema and calling it compensation."

Bitter campaign.

A higher-profile campaign was waged by Cardiff West MP - and now National Assembly Economic Secretary - Rhodri Morgan.

He voiced the fears of many Cardiff people that the barrage would raise groundwater levels across the city and would lead to a flooding danger.

He was joined in his campaign by fellow Labour MP - and keen birdwatcher - Ron Davies. Both MPs fought the parliamentary bill that brought the barrage into being.

The Labour Party in opposition also pledged to stop the project if they were elected.

However, ironically, it was Ron Davies - appointed Welsh Secretary after Labour's landslide win in 1997 - who oversaw the agreements that removed the final environmental obstacles to the barrage.

He then gave the scheme the ultimate backing when he chose the Bay as the site of the new National Assembly for Wales.

......... as you can see from the above, if everywhere has special dispensation there will be wholesale destruction of birds feeding grounds. I realise in somes minds they think - oh what the hell, they are only birds but we are all in the food chain. Again you also read of mans interference by flooding other areas and causing more problems. Interestingly everyone has a price though and can be bought eventually. When mankind sits back and realises we are the problem to the planets ills the better. If bird flu wiped us all out tomorrow the planet would still have time to heal itself but thats not going to happen. The likes of myself wont be around to see Earths destruction but what a legacy to leave for our future generations.
 
Dec 16, 2003
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Colin I dont know if you remember but Cardiff Bay was another which had problems over a barrage like the Severn Estuary. One of the main reasons (and right ones as far as I'm concerned were the destruction of saltwater flats and the feeding grounds of 1000s of waders and migratory birds. If I also remembered rightly there was opposition from shell fisherman.The following is a BBC report on the Cardiff scheme dated Friday, 19 November, 1999.

International wildlife site.

The mudflats at the mouths of the tidal rivers Taff and Ely have sustained huge numbers of waterbirds and the area was considered a site of international importance for migrating wildlife.

Flooding the mudflats permanently meant the displacement of those birds.

Friends of the Earth and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds waged a 10-year campaign against the plan.

The pressure groups took their challenge to the dam as far as Europe.

But the economic benefits to south east Wales outweighed the environmental concerns, and the EU let the scheme go ahead as a special case.

Farmland flooded.

Under the deal with the EU, compensation for the loss of the mudflats meant creating a new wildlife habitat by flooding 1,000 acres of farmland, 15 miles further along the coast in the Gwent Levels, with sewage water.

Farmers then joined the anti-barrage protests, fearing polluted pools would be created that would damage surrounding farmland.

At the time, FoE Director Tony Juniper said: "They are destroying a saline mudflat and creating a freshwater marsh.

"It's like knocking down the Tower of Pisa and building a cinema and calling it compensation."

Bitter campaign.

A higher-profile campaign was waged by Cardiff West MP - and now National Assembly Economic Secretary - Rhodri Morgan.

He voiced the fears of many Cardiff people that the barrage would raise groundwater levels across the city and would lead to a flooding danger.

He was joined in his campaign by fellow Labour MP - and keen birdwatcher - Ron Davies. Both MPs fought the parliamentary bill that brought the barrage into being.

The Labour Party in opposition also pledged to stop the project if they were elected.

However, ironically, it was Ron Davies - appointed Welsh Secretary after Labour's landslide win in 1997 - who oversaw the agreements that removed the final environmental obstacles to the barrage.

He then gave the scheme the ultimate backing when he chose the Bay as the site of the new National Assembly for Wales.

......... as you can see from the above, if everywhere has special dispensation there will be wholesale destruction of birds feeding grounds. I realise in somes minds they think - oh what the hell, they are only birds but we are all in the food chain. Again you also read of mans interference by flooding other areas and causing more problems. Interestingly everyone has a price though and can be bought eventually. When mankind sits back and realises we are the problem to the planets ills the better. If bird flu wiped us all out tomorrow the planet would still have time to heal itself but thats not going to happen. The likes of myself wont be around to see Earths destruction but what a legacy to leave for our future generations.
Ron Davies , BIRD Watcher ?????????????????

;-)
 
Mar 27, 2005
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Hi All

On the subject of wind power and wave power and other forms of energy that fall into that category. They are only suitable for background power generating. As lord B states we would need thousands of the things to supply even a small town and then it would need to be subsidised with another form of energy. A wind turbine only has a small 'window' within which it can produce power. To slow and it produces none at all and if the wind is to strong they turn to fast become unstable and have to be disconnected. They also come in for the same scathing as mobile phone masts and the such,'not in my back yard'. The problem with renewable energy is when it is not available, for instance when the wind does not blow at the right speed, we require a stand by power source that can provide a lot of power very quickly-nuclear power, and sadly people have negative pre-conceived ideas on that. Then of course there is the cost of renewable energy, it don't come cheap you know.

Believe me power production is an absolute minefield, I studied a little of it last year as part of my degree and it really is an involved subject
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Before you cancel, you migth want to write to the magazine challenging him on one topic.

My wife and I were in Italy a couple of years ago and David Bellamy got on the train with is wife.

We started talking and he has a house in Northern Tuscany that he visits as often as he can....travelling on planes which, as you know, cause far more problems with their exhaust fumes!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Clive, I actually agree with you on the subject of wind farms. I do not think they are the whole answer to our energy problems, but I do think they have a part to play and I do think that David Bellamy's opposition is misguided. What I cannot get my head around is this: a year or so back, the RSPB magazine published an article by DB explaining why he was against wind farms. I am sure many members, like me, read this and thought, as I did, 'I disagree with you'. But no one threw their toys out of the pram, no one took their ball home and refused to play anymore. It was a simple case a a disagreement between adults.

Yet, when the same person dares to express views which are not wholly sympathetic to a certain section of the driving public, all hell breaks loose. Why? I simply do not understand why a certain element on here cannot simply say 'I disagree, but you have a right to your opinion, as I have a right to mine'. I am not getting at you, you have presented your case in a reasonable fashion and appear to behave as a responsible member of the community. But why is this particular issue so sensitive that what you describe as 'red mist' seems to descend on the 'pro' lobby the moment anyone expresses the mildest degree of dissent?
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Just before Clive manages to answer Chrissie, I would like to put my thoughts to you. Since the new beginning of this forum 4x4 drivers have been harassed by a minority of small minded members that thought it was fun to do so. We are the first to admit the failings of 4x4s, no cars are perfect but to have nonsense thrust down our throats day in, day out has left a few of us touchy on this subject. So the hackles go up when it gets mentioned again, a little bit like poking at a wound, it needs time to heal over.
 
Dec 16, 2003
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Colin.

I've been to the alternative energy centre in Wales and have some solar panels myself. (Another Story)

The point I was trying to make was based on cost, the product my friend bought in the States about 6 years or so ago was very efficient and much much cheaper than here.

Near a Customer in Woking they have some council flats and a health Centr with huge solar panels on the roof. I saw an article on the company providing. The price was out of this world, I can't see that they would ever pay for them selves.

The flexible "table mat" style panels were incredible cheap compared to the UK and I know two of them are still in service on a yacht in Devon.

If the price was right I'm sure they could provide a great benefit. At the time my friend bought the panels they were, as I said over
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I agree with Martyn, that the subject of energy efficiencies and conservation is an absolute minefield.

Whilst most attention is being given to electricity supplies, the issue must also encompass considerations of other fuels and usages.

In my opinion we will need to rely on a range of power sources, which might include nuclear, wind farms, tidal power, biomass etc, and fossil fuels such as coal oil and gas, as no one single technology is going to provide all our needs.

Local conditions will dictate what mix of power sources will be most appropriate; clearly the needs of desert dwellers will be different to those of the arctic.

Simply looking for alternative fuel and power sources will not be enough. As most of our energy goes into making heat, there is a lot that can be done to stop that heat being wasted. The centre for alternative technology in Wales has a very efficient house that uses practical amounts of insulation to reduce heat loss.

We can also look to find what is the best form or energy to use for a particular job. In my opinion we use electricity for too many jobs that can be done as effectively and certainly more efficiently by other fuels. It is important to bear in mind that the big power generators are at best only about 40% efficient. So for every 1kW you use the generator is throwing away 1.5kW up the cooling towers. Smaller generators are even less efficient. - But if the power plant is close to homes or businesses, the waste heat can be used for district heating or process heating. (Combined Heat & Power or CHP) here the potential efficiency can rise to 85%

On of the biggest problems with the environmentally produced renewables, is the unreliability of the source, and often the production period does not directly correspond with the high demand periods, so the storage of power is also a significant challenge. The obvious thought would be batteries, but these are not very efficient storage systems. Better is the large Denorwig (sorry about the spelling) scheme in Wales where water is pumped up into a high level reservoir so it can be released and used to generate power when demand is high. We probably do not have enough viable sites to implement this scheme elsewhere in the UK.

There are other energy storage strategies, but whichever system you look at there are losses in the process. The trick is to choose the process that best suits.

Perhaps we should look at the way energy is used. Could we use low-grade energy to do part of a job and then only rely on the high quality (and high expense stuff) to finish the job? Consider Central heating. Whilst in the UK there are very few Solar powered central heating systems, because we do not have enough solar energy, but if it could be used to raise the water temperature by only a few degrees, then the gas or oil has to do just a bit less work to get it up to the desired temperature. This could make 2 or 3% fuel saving.

There are heat pumps, which can take some heat from a low temperature source and by adding some mechanical energy produce a higher temperature (a refrigerator is an example) so for some people geothermal energy could have a future.

Careful design could make better use of sunlight through windows to warm houses.

I believe we have national opportunities to make at least 10 to15% energy savings with current technology. It really needs the government to make the idea of energy conservation attractive and accessible. Even with savings now, we will still need to look to alternative sustainable energy sources for the future.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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It does not matter what form of alternative energy is used it will never be cheap to the average end user. The western world is funded by the revenues and taxes on oil and gas and would be bankrupt without them. Remember that during the fuel protests Tony Blair said that hospitals , schools etc were funded from these taxes.

The use of cars and the taxes they produce has been the saviour of Europe and should be encouraged by providing cheap car parking etc.

Whatever the government tell you about wishing to curtail the use of cars they would be in deep trouble if everybody took their advice.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Chrissie

In answer to your specific points.

It would be nice if the debate was conducted in an adult way, but as Lol points out there is ample evidence on this Forum of the extremist views and actions of the antis - 4x4 drivers have been labelled "child killers" and "environmental terrorist".

At the end of the day it comes down to what is "FAIR" - that good old British concept of "Fair play".

It was proved that 4x4's do not damage the countryside by the very research the government set up at the insistence of the Ramblers. But when they did not like the conclusion they buried the report.

4x4's take up no more room on the roads but they are taller, but no taller than a people carrier. They use no more fuel than a Transit van, a people carrier or a performance saloon.

4x4's are built to be stronger and in general last far longer than a saloon and so as regards manufacturing cost their environmental impact is less.

They tow better than a saloon as their towing capacity is usually built into their design rather than it being a compromise as with many cars.

Turning to the green lane issue, the BOATS have always been classified as roads. Untarmaced roads are now just 5% of all paths, bridleways, RUPPs and BOATS.

So Greenlaners currently have just 5% of legal untarmaced roads to explore and enjoy quite legally whereas the Ramblers have 100% and even that is not enough for them.

I am not a member of the C&CC and so cannot resign!

But as someone else stated so well earlier, it is not that fact that any individual said it. It is the fact that as an organisation the C&CC are now seen to be endorsing such views.

If you want to simply shrug your shoulders and say "Not Bothered" - that is your prerogative.

So in answer to you point Chrissie - I would LOVE a sensible adult debate on this subject.

But when you have greedy people that lie, abuse, distort the facts as well as ignore the facts that do not suit their preconceived ideas, I believe you have to stand up and be counted.

The idea that wind farms are a bad thing and that Global Warming is not an issue seems crazy to me. When in Tenerife a while back driving up the East Coast road - wind farms were spinning in their lazy fashion - generating a significant amount of power!

As for their affecting bird migration - I thought the jury was still out on this because their are no huge windfarms that actually exist on migratory routes.

It may be true, but so far based upon the lies and vitriol aimed at a sub group of car drivers who have vehicles that differ only in that they have an extra propshaft does not leave me with much confidence in the likes of David Bellamy and the other Anti's to tell me the TRUTH!!
 
Dec 16, 2003
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Just like I've been telling it for years Rayc.

If we had a 100% solid two or three day national strike re car/van/motorcycle use Gordon Brown would be in Resuc.

The loss in revenue and effect on business would cause a huge blip in the economy!
 
Mar 14, 2005
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LB - You have labelled me sarcastic simply because I disagree with you.

So sorry my friend but you will probably not like this.

Your sites quoted above seem carefully selected to show one viewpoint.

The RSPB takes a far broader view in reality.

See - http://www.rspb.org.uk/policy/windfarms/index.asp

I quote from the above RSPB article:-

"Wind Farms and Birds

The available evidence suggests that appropriately positioned wind farms do not pose a significant hazard for birds. However, evidence from the US and Spain confirms that poorly sited wind farms can cause severe problems for birds, through disturbance, habitat loss/damage or collision with turbines.

Because of this, the RSPB has objected to 76 wind farm proposals (on and offshore) between 2000-2004 and has raised concerns about a further 129. The RSPB recently objected to a proposed 234 turbine wind farm on the Isle of Lewis in the Hebrides, on an extremely fragile and special area for wildlife."

So the RSPB state sensibly that they do not object to them but they do need to be sited correctly.

If the RSPB can see the benefit of such a sustainable energy source but simply want them put in the right place then surely windfarms should be considerred. So they are not simply destructive as you suggest.

The real objection to windfarms as far as I can see is the NIMBY factor.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Clive, The article you quote from RSPB says they objected to 70 odd wind farm applications. Have you any idea what percentage of proposed farms this represented of the total applications, and the % of the proposed generated power in the same period?

In reality it is not individuals who are NIMBY but pressure groups such as RSBP who have their own agenda and feeling of importance to protect. This obviously also applies to the pro camp.
 
Jan 19, 2008
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Clive now you have gone too far and proved you have bigotted "I'm never wrong" views. You have looked at my post in which I listed some sites regarding wind turbines and bird mortality for people to read and make up their own minds. I never even read what they had to say but I see you did hence your propensity to show all that you can copy/paste. If I was trying to prove a point and those sites went against what I was trying to prove do you think I would leave myself wide open for the likes of you to prove me wrong? Take time out Clive to look again, all I posted were URL'S with NO comments. Again you try to assume what someone is saying and you got it SO wrong again. Dont be so quick to jump and try and impress or score Brownie points Clive. All you are doing is proving me right when I said you posted sarcastic comments. Oh and yes Clive, sighhhhh, yawnnnnn, I know I'm wrong as everyone else is and you are right. As the forum turns.................
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Oh come on!

Bigoted I am never wrong attitude!

Pot calling the Kettle Black there I think!

So you never wrote:-

" Lord Braykewynde

22 Feb 2006 12:53 PM I dont know about the worth of wind turbines except that experts in the field say we need thousands just to power a small to Lord Braykewynde

22 Feb 2006 12:53 PM I dont know about the worth of wind turbines except that experts in the field say we need thousands just to power a small town. There is no surplus. What I do know is that they are destructive to migratory birds and raptors like sea eagles.

wn. There is no surplus. What I do know is that they are destructive to migratory birds and raptors like sea eagles."

Have a look at a bit more of the article

"The RSPB views climate change as the most serious long-term threat to wildlife in the UK and globally and, therefore, we support the Government's target to source 15% of electricity from renewables by 2015.

To meet this target, the RSPB favours a broad mix of renewables, especially those, like solar energy, with large long- term potential and minimal environmental impacts. However, wind power has the greatest potential to make a significant difference in the UK in the coming decade. It is the most advanced and widely available of the new renewable technologies."

Perhaps - just in case you had difficulty reading or understanding the last bit let me make it as clear as possible:-

THIS FROM THE RSPB - FOLKS!

HOWEVER, WIND POWER HAS THE GREATEST POTENTIAL TO MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN THE UK IN THE COMING DECADE. IT IS THE MOST ADVANCED AND WIDELY AVAILABLE OF THE NEW RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGIES.

It is easy to throw labels at people - such as "sarcastic" -"bigot".

But it does not stop the facts that you posted

"What I do know is that they are destructive to migratory birds and raptors like sea eagles."

If you know that why do the RSPB say what they do in their latest factsheet on the subject?

As regards Ray point - Ray - join the RSPB - they are not NIMBYS - tho' they certainly have a cross section of members!

However- the organisation itself has a practical "can do" attitude" and actually supports Wind Farms - but wants them on "Brown Field" (for want of a better description!) rather than in the country - a sensible idea in my view.

They also suggest that local individual house Solar panels and wind vanes could reduce energy requirement from fossil fuels in the future as long as the technology carries on expanding at such a rate.

After all I am typing this on a Laptop powered by a battery that is staggering in its abilities compared to what was available 5 or 10 years ago. This battery is recharged via the mains - Why am I not able to trickle charge it from a solar panel/wind vane on the top of my house?

Final word to LB

No sarcasm EVER intended and it is you calling me names not the other way round. Just lately you seem aver more belligerent - and not just to me.

Hope all is OK with you.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Clive now you have gone too far and proved you have bigotted "I'm never wrong" views. You have looked at my post in which I listed some sites regarding wind turbines and bird mortality for people to read and make up their own minds. I never even read what they had to say but I see you did hence your propensity to show all that you can copy/paste. If I was trying to prove a point and those sites went against what I was trying to prove do you think I would leave myself wide open for the likes of you to prove me wrong? Take time out Clive to look again, all I posted were URL'S with NO comments. Again you try to assume what someone is saying and you got it SO wrong again. Dont be so quick to jump and try and impress or score Brownie points Clive. All you are doing is proving me right when I said you posted sarcastic comments. Oh and yes Clive, sighhhhh, yawnnnnn, I know I'm wrong as everyone else is and you are right. As the forum turns.................
You never wrote this then "What I do know is that they are destructive to migratory birds and raptors like sea eagles."?
 
Jan 19, 2008
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I'm fine thank you for your concern Clive as I'm sure you can see from my other posts. Clive since I have been in this forum you have ALWAYS been right no matter who you get into an argument/debate with. I know you must be missing Kanga but I have no intention of replacing him so you can have your daily fix of petty squabbles. I'm sure I could go into those sites I posted and find articles that you had no desire to copy/paste but there is no point. The sarcasm comment I made was against a comment you said to myself but again I'm not going to be childish and search the forum so I can score a Brownie point against you. You not only make a reply to my post but you even have a dig under comments. Perhaps its attention seeking that makes you like that and the need to be seen by posting "THIS FROM THE RSPB - FOLKS!" instead of using lower case letters. As I said before Clive, you are right ;O) now does that make you feel better?
 

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