Electric camper van

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Nov 11, 2009
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As you state storing energy is the biggest obstacle at present. However if for example a sub-station goes or there is a physical breakage in distribution supply over which the distribution company has no control, then no heating, hot water etc. At least with gas you will still have heating and hot water.
If we could harness the earth's magnetic field we could have a source of endless clean power. The question is being able to do that! TBH I think that is our future and the way electric will be derived. I do know that it is being investigated and has been for sometime.

Our gas boiler doesn't give out much heat without electric available. The lounge gas fire will work as its igniter is battery, but other than my camping kit nothing else works. without electric. Even the gas cooker requires 240 volts to supply its ignitors. Must try it to see if I turn off the power will it hold its flame if lit with a match?
 
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Porsche have already developed a system of making a liquid fuel suitable for petrol engines simply by using electricity, and carbon dioxide etc from the air-why is this not being ramped up and fast I do not know. I think EVs for short journeys and synthetic petrol for longer is the perfect solution to our issues-how we make the electricity to make the petrol and power battery cars is the biggest issue and must be green and renewable-wind, sun and water for me-nuclear does not in any way come classified as green or renewable imo-but of course the government seem happy with risking it!!!1
Interesting about Porsche. Do you have a link as would like to read up on it? IMHO if there was a way to manufacture hydrogen in vast quantities and ICE vehicles easy to convert to using hydrogen, that would be a good interim solution as it will save dumping millions of cars. Still not sure what is going to happen to the millions of people who reply on the oil business for employment?
 
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Interesting about Porsche. Do you have a link as would like to read up on it? IMHO if there was a way to manufacture hydrogen in vast quantities and ICE vehicles easy to convert to using hydrogen, that would be a good interim solution as it will save dumping millions of cars. Still not sure what is going to happen to the millions of people who reply on the oil business for employment?

Heres the Porsche link. Its a standard methanol production process as used by ICI in the NE at least 30 years ago as I was involved in a similar project, and visited the plant.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Porsche-s-hydrogen-based-eFuel-turns-gas-guzzlers-into-eco-cars#:~:text=Porsche's eFuel, which is under development, combines "green,compared with conventional gasoline, the German automaker says.



https://www.technology.matthey.com/...oduction process operating at 30–120 atm (17).

"Still not sure what is going to happen to the millions of people who reply on the oil business for employment?"

There will be new jobs in the new technology industries that are being developed. Gas didn't do the coal mining and coal men any favours, and liquid fuels didn't do much for stable lands and grooms. The world has been adapting to change since mankind evolved.
 
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As you state storing energy is the biggest obstacle at present. However if for example a sub-station goes or there is a physical breakage in distribution supply over which the distribution company has no control, then no heating, hot water etc. At least with gas you will still have heating and hot water.

Failures in the system will always cause outages, but having local storage can mitigate significantly. My house has an average load of about 18kWh a day, excluding charging the cars. In the summer I can supply perhaps 6-8kWh of that from my solar. If I were to add a battery, with say 12kWh capacity, I could expect to be able to charge the battery at night (when electricity is green a cheap) and use it in the day, when it's less green and expensive. In the event of a power cut, I could be self sufficient for perhaps 8-10 hours without any loss in what I do.

If I could connect my car to the house (Vehicle to Home) I could use the 78kWh battery to keep me going for days.

If we could harness the earth's magnetic field we could have a source of endless clean power. The question is being able to do that! TBH I think that is our future and the way electric will be derived. I do know that it is being investigated and has been for sometime.

The Earths magnetic field is generated by the molten iron core at the centre of the Earth. We already harness it using Geo-thermal energy :) I agree - lots more of this for heating (deep ground source heat pumps) at a community level is very good idea. Something that is being used on the green housing development in Bicester. High up front costs, needs to be designed into the development build, but very long life sustainable renewable and long term cheap, heating for the whole community.
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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Heres the Porsche link. Its a standard methanol production process as used by ICI in the NE at least 30 years ago as I was involved in a similar project, and visited the plant.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Environment/Porsche-s-hydrogen-based-eFuel-turns-gas-guzzlers-into-eco-cars#:~:text=Porsche's eFuel, which is under development, combines "green,compared with conventional gasoline, the German automaker says.



https://www.technology.matthey.com/article/61/3/172-182/#:~:text=In the 1960s, arguably the biggest change to,methanol production process operating at 30–120 atm (17).

"Still not sure what is going to happen to the millions of people who reply on the oil business for employment?"

There will be new jobs in the new technology industries that are being developed. Gas didn't do the coal mining and coal men any favours, and liquid fuels didn't do much for stable lands and grooms. The world has been adapting to change since mankind evolved.

I love the idea of a green version of petrol or diesel, to keep existing cars on the road, but it wont take off for prime time for one reason. Cost. The entire process is predicated on having enough green electricity to first manufacture vast quantities of H2 and then convert that into a fuel using atmospheric recovered CO2. And then distribute it like we distribute fuel today. The process might produce a fuel at something like £4.50 a litre when industrialised.

Great for keeping exotica on the road, or for motor sport, or for key industrial or emergency use where cost is not a factor. But for the general public, where you could choose between 1p per mile with a direct charge electric car and 45p per mile with a synth-fuel... not so much...
 
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I agree. Am assuming economies of scale may make it ever more practical but I'd not want to go back to solely driving an ice car after Mini ownership. It's a true Mini in every sense(bar size) And your Polestar is even better.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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The U.K. used to be self supporting on the Utilities. Not any more😥. Going green is all well and good, we pollute less than 1% worldwide, but some fat cat somewhere is jacking up my energy price and he’s not in the U.K.🤬🤬
 
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Mar 14, 2005
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I understand that but what I am trying to put across is that we still need to looking for an alternative source of power whatever it will be. Electric IMHO is not the answer, but at the moment is a good substitute.

Living in the countryside with power cuts from time to time makes you think hard about relying solely on electric. During the past summer we had to long power cuts with one being nearly all day and the other only 2 -3 hours.

If it was middle of the winter we would have had to drag out the gas heater to keep warm. We also have a small camping gas stove as a backup. Worst of all we need to fit an old style telephone so that we can phone out as no mobile signal.

Now people are being offered £5k grants to change their boilers away from gas so another drain on the system? If it gets really cold, air source heating will struggle. Also if you are taking heat out of the atmosphere perhaps that wil have a negative effect overall on the environment when loads other people are doing the same?

Your telling us that Electric is not the answer, so what in your opinion is the answer?

Considering the emission's produced by burning fuels in a power station, the nature of the emissions is not as damaging as burning fuel in IC engines. So even if it was all loaded onto fossil fuel power stations, the overall emissions would be more tolerable. But the fact is an increasing proportion of grid electricity is produced from either renewables or from zero emission sources, so we are never going to be as dependant on fossil fuels as we have in the past.

The body that runs the national grid has openly stated that the grid has the capacity to deal with and all electric road transport system, where the problems begin to show are local feeds, and even here the capacity is there, but it needs to be managed to prevent local over loads by smart charging and switching of loads to off peak periods.

You local issues are just that local, and it seems that regardless of how much grid activity there is else where, your locality is weak. That is not a reflection of the situation in the whole country. You should be badgering your supplies to improve the local infrastructure, that is one of the risks of deciding to live remotely.

It seems you were badly advised about the size/capability of the Air Source heating system you chose to have fitted. That does not make AS inherently poor its just your particular installation. There are an increasing number of very successful AS schemes in use, perhaps you should look at upgrading yours.

As for the effect of AS on the environment, ignoring the costs and effects on the environment of constructing the systems and having them fitted, Heat is extracted from teh air which cools it a bit. The heat energy is transferred to the inside of the house. the insulation of the house prevents its escape, but not completely, so eventually all that heat energy manages to escape back to the environment. The energy is not destroyed it's simply borrowed temporarily, so the net thermal effect on the environment is actually slightly positive, as you also have to include the energy used run the AS which all eventually emerges as heat .

As Ern posted, greater emphasis should be put onto thermal insulation to reduce the quantities of energy needed for heating. I will add that all new housing and building should be better insulated, and required to have local energy storage systems that can help to balance teh peak loads on local mains supplies.
 
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.....
If we could harness the earth's magnetic field we could have a source of endless clean power. The question is being able to do that! TBH I think that is our future and the way electric will be derived. I do know that it is being investigated and has been for sometime.

As you have told us you have worked with electronics, you should know that a conductor that experiences a change in flux induces a current and a voltage which is proportional to the rate of change of flux. This fits with Ohm's Law (V = IR). A current and a voltage in a coil induce a flux which is proportional to the current and the voltage.

The flux density of the earth's magnetic field is very low so it would need a massive coil moving at considerable speed around the earth to produce a useful amount of power. Somewhat beyond our present day or foreseeable future capabilities.
 
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Still not sure what is going to happen to the millions of people who reply on the oil business for employment?
As you have been told several times previously, the change away from fossil fuels is not going to put millions of people out of work all at the same time. it will be a gradual process over several decades, during which a significant proportion of those involved will have either retired, or retrained, and there will be several million who will continues either with fossil fuel production or will find the same skill set will be equally applicable in other energy supply scenarios'.

It's a long term process not a step change overnight.
 
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I suppose the corollary is that LPG will disappear and off grid caravanning will stop😥😥
As both Butane and Propane LPG are derivatives of the petroleum manufacturing process, if less petroleum is being produced, it's very likely that LPG's will also reduce and the ensuing effects of supply, demand and inflation will take its toll on price and availability.

But whilst there will be drop in the demand for the likes of diesel and petrol, there will continue to be some demand for situations where there genuinely is no alternative, so there will I think always be some availability, but at what cost!
 
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Predictions that were absolutely wrong;

  • A rocket will never be able to leave the earth’s atmosphere – New York Times 1936
  • When the Paris Exhibition closes (1878), electric light will close with it and no more will be heard of it – Oxford professor Erasmus Wilson
  • The world potential for copying machines is 5000 at most – IBM to the founders of Xerox, saying the photocopier had no market large enough to justify production 1959
  • I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything, but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea – H G Wells, British novelist 1901
  • The idea that calvary will be replaced by these iron coaches is absurd. It is a little short of treasonous – Comment of Aide-de-camp to Field Marshal Haig at tank demonstration 1916
  • “How sir would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I pray you excuse me I have not the time to listen to such nonsense” - Napoleon when told of Robert Fulton’s steamboat 1800s.
  • There will never be a bigger plane built – A Boeing engineer after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane holding 10 people
  • A wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular – Associates of David Sarnoff responding to the latter’s call for investment in the radio in 1921
  • No it will make war impossible – Hiram Maxim inventor of the machine gun in response to the question “Will this gun not make war more terrible?” from Havelock Ellis and English scientist 1893
  • There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home – Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corporation in a talk given to a 1977World Future Society meeting in Boston
  • No one will pay good money to get from Berlin to Potsdam in one hour when they can ride his horse there in one day for free – King William of Prussia on trains 1864
  • Television won’t last because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night. Darry Zanuck, movie producer 20th Century Fox 1946
  • The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty – a fad. President of the Michigan Savings advising Henry Ford’s lawyer not to invest in the Ford Motor Co 1903
  • X-rays will prove to be a hoax – Lord Kelvin president of the Royal Society 1883
  • I think there is a world market for maybe five computers – Thomas Watson chairman of IBM 1943
  • Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers unable to breathe would die of asphyxia – Dr Dionysius Lardner 1830
  • This telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us – Western Union internal memo 1876
  • There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will- Albert Einstein 1932
 
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Predictions that were absolutely wrong;

  • A rocket will never be able to leave the earth’s atmosphere – New York Times 1936
  • When the Paris Exhibition closes (1878), electric light will close with it and no more will be heard of it – Oxford professor Erasmus Wilson
  • The world potential for copying machines is 5000 at most – IBM to the founders of Xerox, saying the photocopier had no market large enough to justify production 1959
  • I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything, but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea – H G Wells, British novelist 1901
  • The idea that calvary will be replaced by these iron coaches is absurd. It is a little short of treasonous – Comment of Aide-de-camp to Field Marshal Haig at tank demonstration 1916
  • “How sir would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I pray you excuse me I have not the time to listen to such nonsense” - Napoleon when told of Robert Fulton’s steamboat 1800s.
  • There will never be a bigger plane built – A Boeing engineer after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane holding 10 people
  • A wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular – Associates of David Sarnoff responding to the latter’s call for investment in the radio in 1921
  • No it will make war impossible – Hiram Maxim inventor of the machine gun in response to the question “Will this gun not make war more terrible?” from Havelock Ellis and English scientist 1893
  • There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home – Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corporation in a talk given to a 1977World Future Society meeting in Boston
  • No one will pay good money to get from Berlin to Potsdam in one hour when they can ride his horse there in one day for free – King William of Prussia on trains 1864
  • Television won’t last because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night. Darry Zanuck, movie producer 20th Century Fox 1946
  • The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty – a fad. President of the Michigan Savings advising Henry Ford’s lawyer not to invest in the Ford Motor Co 1903
  • X-rays will prove to be a hoax – Lord Kelvin president of the Royal Society 1883
  • I think there is a world market for maybe five computers – Thomas Watson chairman of IBM 1943
  • Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers unable to breathe would die of asphyxia – Dr Dionysius Lardner 1830
  • This telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us – Western Union internal memo 1876
  • There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will- Albert Einstein 1932

So are you saying that Global Warming is a false prediction then?
 
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JTQ

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Predictions that were absolutely wrong;

There will always be individuals who make mistakes, but that's no reason for humanity not to consider and plan for the future.

The point you are trying to make is what, we should not consider anything other than what the present can offer, as someone might get it wrong?
 
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There will always be individuals who make mistakes, but that's no reason for humanity not to consider and plan for the future.

The point you are trying to make is what, we should not consider anything other than what the present can offer, as someone might get it wrong?
That was not my intention as it was in response to another post on this thread and my suggestion about alternative power etc!
 
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That was not my intention as it was in response to another post on this thread and my suggestion about alternative power etc!

If you watched "The Trick" it would have explained the Hockey Stick Curve. Towards the end of the programme it mentioned that a US panel of experts were to review the data, and this panel contained several sceptics. What surprised them is that after extensive analysis that the panel concluded that the Hockey Stick Curve is accurate and the rapid rise warming emanated at the time of the Industrial Revolution. The Wikipedia article explains it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_graph


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy
 
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Predictions that were absolutely wrong;

  • A rocket will never be able to leave the earth’s atmosphere – New York Times 1936
  • When the Paris Exhibition closes (1878), electric light will close with it and no more will be heard of it – Oxford professor Erasmus Wilson
  • The world potential for copying machines is 5000 at most – IBM to the founders of Xerox, saying the photocopier had no market large enough to justify production 1959
  • I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything, but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea – H G Wells, British novelist 1901
  • The idea that calvary will be replaced by these iron coaches is absurd. It is a little short of treasonous – Comment of Aide-de-camp to Field Marshal Haig at tank demonstration 1916
  • “How sir would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I pray you excuse me I have not the time to listen to such nonsense” - Napoleon when told of Robert Fulton’s steamboat 1800s.
  • There will never be a bigger plane built – A Boeing engineer after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane holding 10 people
  • A wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to no one in particular – Associates of David Sarnoff responding to the latter’s call for investment in the radio in 1921
  • No it will make war impossible – Hiram Maxim inventor of the machine gun in response to the question “Will this gun not make war more terrible?” from Havelock Ellis and English scientist 1893
  • There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home – Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corporation in a talk given to a 1977World Future Society meeting in Boston
  • No one will pay good money to get from Berlin to Potsdam in one hour when they can ride his horse there in one day for free – King William of Prussia on trains 1864
  • Television won’t last because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night. Darry Zanuck, movie producer 20th Century Fox 1946
  • The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty – a fad. President of the Michigan Savings advising Henry Ford’s lawyer not to invest in the Ford Motor Co 1903
  • X-rays will prove to be a hoax – Lord Kelvin president of the Royal Society 1883
  • I think there is a world market for maybe five computers – Thomas Watson chairman of IBM 1943
  • Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers unable to breathe would die of asphyxia – Dr Dionysius Lardner 1830
  • This telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us – Western Union internal memo 1876
  • There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will- Albert Einstein 1932
The impressive list you have produced whilst eminently demonstrating that mankind can often fail to see the potential in a future situation, but all of the points are independent of each other and bear no relationship to this thread.

If you are referring to my comment about the earth's magnetic field, please read again because I have not said it will never happen. I have simple said that power generation with todays or foreseeable future technology is not going provide what you suggest "a source of endless clean power"

And ultimately even if realistic power can be generated from the earths magnetic field, it will never be "endless" Magnets do lose their field strength over time, it may be milenia bu tits not endless.
 
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Parksy

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I watched Boris Johnson on TV banging on about how he is so keen on green.
I'm all for trying to do our bit to reduce pollution if other countries do the same, but experience has taught me that whenever a politician of any persuasion seems to be overly enthusiastic about something, the something that they are so keen on should be looked at very closely and with suspicion.
There's always a hidden agenda, and anything that they decree must be adopted by us at cost to ourselves can and often is changed when they hit upon another next big idea.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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As history has told us just because you can’t see it , hear it , believe in it or comprehend it’s existence, then it must be possible and will exist. Remember the Luddites and Confucius 😜😜
 

JTQ

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Sapping the Earth's magnetic field away most likely comes with its own environmental cost; does it not shield us, allowing life to exist here?
 
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The impressive list you have produced whilst eminently demonstrating that mankind can often fail to see the potential in a future situation, but all of the points are independent of each other and bear no relationship to this thread.

If you are referring to my comment about the earth's magnetic field, please read again because I have not said it will never happen. I have simple said that power generation with todays or foreseeable future technology is not going provide what you suggest "a source of endless clean power"

And ultimately even if realistic power can be generated from the earths magnetic field, it will never be "endless" Magnets do lose their field strength over time, it may be milenia bu tits not endless.
Thank you for kind words. Actually I was referring to hydrogen and it being possible distribute it in vast quantities however I guess the same would apply to research regarding the earth's magnetic field. I think every planet has some sort of magnetic field even satellites like the moon. I supposed that there is the possibility that there are some sort of magnetic fields in space, but I don't know having neve read up on it.
 

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