Engine Oil..Price Rip off or What?

[otherclive]

I have just purchased 5 litres of Total Quartz fully synthetic engine oil for less than £16 from our local farmers oulet. At another local outlet (Farmers also) I can get Q8 fully synthetic for a similar price. Compare these prices to Halfords and garages. If you change your own oil or supply oil to the garage when the car is being serviced it might be worth looking at your local farmers oulet, assuming that is you don't have to drive too far. Their other stuff such as anti-freeze, windscreen wash etc is also far cheaper than normal automotive outlets.

Other clive

 

[sidney_374363391]

So, 5 litres of semi-synthetic, and a tank of red diesel, please.....

BTW, you must have a lot more faith in your garage than I do - if I took them high quality oil I'm pretty sure that they'd keep it for themselves and put their own stuff in!

I once took a new Nissan to a Peugeot 'rapid fit' place for an oil change at 4,000 miles (I wanted to change the oil after running in, but didn't want to pay the extortionate Nissan cost)

They were happy to do it cheaply, and even used a Nissan filter (the Nissan dealership was on the same site) to avoid any warranty quibbles, andwhen I asked them about whether the oil they were going to use was suitable for turbo diesels they assured me (with a perfectly straight face) that it was

I later learned that they bought their oil from a local supplier and that it came in big unmarked barrels. They just bought whatever stuff he had on a good offer at the time and put it in everything, petrol, diesel, turno-diesel - it made no difference, in it went.

Perhaps all dealers do it, even when you pay for a 'proper' service - best not to know about some things, I suppose

 

[otherclive]

My Kia dealer only has Total oils in bulk supply and I would not supply my own oil to them, although their service costs are not unreasonable. For the Ford TDDI I use a local garage which I have been to for nearly 25 years now and they have no qualms about letting me see the oil change. If I don't supply my own oil they always use Rock oils from the adjacent depot. I can't ever imagine going to Rapid fit, Nationwide of Kwik Fit type places as I am sure your experience is not unique.

 

[Rich]

Oil is an odd product to compare against another on price. Synthetic and semi synthetic oils can both be bought cheaply or be very expensive and we know nothing about what is in the bottle. Red Line oils can be very expensive and cost up to

 

[otherclive]

I understand your point but I still feel that for a fully synthetic that meets Ford., Mercedes and Audi sppecs as well as the normal B specs

 

[Rich]

I understand your point but I still feel that for a fully synthetic that meets Ford., Mercedes and Audi sppecs as well as the normal B specs

 

[Rich]

The standards set by the manufacturers has got tougher. Many oils only met the standards when fresh and the friction reducers quickly degraded and would in a long service inteval engine do more harm than good. Halfords oils are all quite good believe it or not as they are made in the old Duckhams oils manufacturing facility so I am led to believe. Total make some good oils but it is best to check which one you buy as some specs of Total Quartz oils are not fully synthetic and they do a full mineral one as well. Quartz 5000 is mineral, 7000 is semi synthetic and 9000 is fully synthetic. They do some low SAPS oils , to reduce emmisions of reduces the emission of sulphate ash, phosphorous and sulphur but these are still very new and no specs of what they are have been released. These are for Euro 6 emmisions engine cars and may not be worth buying for older engines which are not Euro 6 compliant.

I still prefer to use oils which have high ester content. But I am lucky as I have access to various oil companies and thier technical technical departments.

 

[Rich]

Sorry.... There should have only been One technical at the end not two....

 

[RogerL]

Synthetic oil ISN'T synthetic - it's chemically modified mineral oil.

Semi-synthetic should be called part-synthetic - it's proportions can vary from 1:99 to 99:1.

There's far too much hype about oil - find out what viscosity (eg 5W-30) and grade (eg ACEA-A3) is recommended by your vehicle manufacturer and choose from that.

It's permissible to reduce the cold viscosity number (eg from 5W-30 to 0W-30) to reduce start-up engine wear.

The high specifications, and high price, of some oils relates to it's ability to meet fleet demands of long oil change intervals, 20-30,000 miles in some cases. If you change your oil much more frequently, say 5-6,000 miles, then you don't need extended service oil!

 

[xtrailman]

I wouldnt recommend using fully synthetic oil if you have previous only used semi or mineral, you may find your engine will start to leak oil. ref honest john.

 

[otherclive]

The standards set by the manufacturers has got tougher. Many oils only met the standards when fresh and the friction reducers quickly degraded and would in a long service inteval engine do more harm than good. Halfords oils are all quite good believe it or not as they are made in the old Duckhams oils manufacturing facility so I am led to believe. Total make some good oils but it is best to check which one you buy as some specs of Total Quartz oils are not fully synthetic and they do a full mineral one as well. Quartz 5000 is mineral, 7000 is semi synthetic and 9000 is fully synthetic. They do some low SAPS oils , to reduce emmisions of reduces the emission of sulphate ash, phosphorous and sulphur but these are still very new and no specs of what they are have been released. These are for Euro 6 emmisions engine cars and may not be worth buying for older engines which are not Euro 6 compliant.

I still prefer to use oils which have high ester content. But I am lucky as I have access to various oil companies and thier technical technical departments.

You are not raeding my thread properly, I am talking about 9000 Future Economy which I said was fully synthetic. At

 

[otherclive]

Synthetic oil ISN'T synthetic - it's chemically modified mineral oil.

Semi-synthetic should be called part-synthetic - it's proportions can vary from 1:99 to 99:1.

There's far too much hype about oil - find out what viscosity (eg 5W-30) and grade (eg ACEA-A3) is recommended by your vehicle manufacturer and choose from that.

It's permissible to reduce the cold viscosity number (eg from 5W-30 to 0W-30) to reduce start-up engine wear.

The high specifications, and high price, of some oils relates to it's ability to meet fleet demands of long oil change intervals, 20-30,000 miles in some cases. If you change your oil much more frequently, say 5-6,000 miles, then you don't need extended service oil!

Yes but why is the UK price for the same oil so much more expensive than from French supermarkets? It has got to the stage where best value is to bring home oil not wine! (Joke) I still feel that UK motorists are being charged more because they are not that price sensitve, well that is until diesel stared going above

 

[spj]

Back in 2001 I had a Subaru Impreza Turbo which was nearly a year out of warranty, it had done a hard 82000 miles and number 4 big end had started knocking, I removed and stripped the engine, had the crankshaft reground etc, the bores and pistons were completely as new and I ran a glaze buster down each bore mainly to remove the carbon from around the unswept part at the top of the bore, I then rebuilt it with fully synthetic oil as it had always run and it burnt litres of the stuff, I was topping up weekly until I drained it and ran it on semi synthetic for 3000 miles, drained it and went back to fully synthetic, it then never had to be topped up between changes, I had the car for another 20000 miles and towed a caravan with it with no problems at all.

The long service intervals we have today on cars is driven by fleets and lease companies and ultimately by cost, to make an engine go 20000 miles without an oil change needs a much better oil, my Subaru showed that the fully synthetic oil was so good that the engine would not run in, but on semi synthetic it did very quickly and would have resulted in quicker wear if used further. I currently have a MB ML270CDI which is on variable oil changes, roughly about 16000 miles but I still change it half way with good quality fully synthetic oil, I will not use cheap oils and semi synthetic is no where near as good, only cheaper. Long life oils as they are sometimes called are a better oil and even on shorter intervals will give reduced wear in a modern engine if you are willing to pay a bit more.

The cost of some oils is a rip off, to do my ML I need about 7 litres, so 2x 4l is about

 

[Rich]

Good reply SPJ,

There are some very good semi synthetic oils which are better than some fully synthetic. Yes they all start as Mineral oil but it is how they refine, blend and modify the oil which is important. The more work put into making a good oil the more it will cost. OK there can be some which are priced high just because they can but there is enough information on oils out there to find a good quality oil and know it is worth the money. Engines are expensive and oil even at

 

[RogerL]

SPJ - fully synthetic is, as you say, too good to allow bedding in - most manufacturers use a different specification oil at the factory than is recommended at service changes. It's also bad practice to have the first oil change early, it should be left in to complete the bedding in process.

Other Clive - prices are set by supply and demand, not by cost - I guess Brits are prepared to pay more for oil than the French.

 

[seth1]

good evening,i,d be interested to know the definition of bedding,or runing an engine in is.as far as i was aware engines are run on testbeds at the factory.i thought runing in was a thing of the past with modern machining process,s.?

 

[RogerL]

Manufacturers no longer recommend "running-in" because fleets demand it - neither care how long an engine lasts after the lease and/or warranty have expired.

Engines aren't run-in on the test bed, they're simply tested for a few minutes.

 

[ShadySadie]

I've been bringing oil back from France for many years for my Husbands and sons cars and bikes mainly and for my cars, they sell the same cars on the continent and the same oils.

They are a fraction of the UK price and are in 5 litre packs not 4 as has been said above.

For any of you that caravan in France you could have you car serviced there as you can be surprised at the savings.

 

[otherclive]

SPJ - fully synthetic is, as you say, too good to allow bedding in - most manufacturers use a different specification oil at the factory than is recommended at service changes. It's also bad practice to have the first oil change early, it should be left in to complete the bedding in process.

Other Clive - prices are set by supply and demand, not by cost - I guess Brits are prepared to pay more for oil than the French.

To some extent you are correct, but assuming that French cars require oils at similar intervals to UK cars then French supply and demand should be be driven by the same forces that drive UK markets. But no French oils are cheaper than equivalents in UK. It has long been the case that UK buyers are more 'brand aware' than in some other countries and as such commodities can accordingly be priced higher as brits until recently are not price sensitive. I worked for a company that had a very strong brand image and we regularly checked competitors products that were in a number of cases superior to ours, but our sales and prices were way over theirs. When one line was not selling as well as our projections forecast we just made a small cahnge to the packaging and ads increased the price by 50%. Sales rose by some fourfold. My old mentor at LBS used to regularly remind us that you price at the highest that the market wil bear!

 

[otherclive]

My final input to this thread...... Autoexpress reports that this week Halfords have launched an extended range of fully synthetic oils starting at

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Roger,

"Synthetic oil ISN'T synthetic - it's chemically modified mineral oil."

Not quite - Some are and some aren't - and it's not immediately obvious unless you look at the fine print on the pack...

A real synthetic oil - like Mobil 1 ESP - is truly synthesised from pure chemical compounds to create what is known as a PAO base oil (Poly-Alpha-Olfein) - and the pack may say "Group IV base oil" or "PAO base oil"

A number of "synthetic oils" are as you describe - a hydrocracked product from the oil refinery - and are "synthetic" in that they've been "made" - but they aren't anything like as good as a PAO oil. These are classed as Group III base oils...

Group II and I base oils are what most people would know as mineral oils...

Robert

 

[rob_jax]

Ray,

"I wouldnt recommend using fully synthetic oil if you have previous only used semi or mineral, you may find your engine will start to leak oil. ref honest john."

That's a bit of an old wives tale...

True if you use Mobil 1 in an old Ford Sierra - then the characteristics of the oil - low viscosity for better fuel consumption - will cause the engine seals and sliding parts to weep oil - until the seals expand and take up the slack...

But on the other hand, that Sierra engine has such poor manufacturing tolerances that oils going to slip past everywhere.

If you're talking about a modern car engine - then there's no problem using an oil like Mobil 1

Robert