Food for thought!

Jul 18, 2017
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Copied from another forum. Below is a copy of an article in the Mail on Sunday. It focuses on the supply of electric and not on EVs. You may not like everything they say, but it makes for interesting reading.

MINISTERS are convinced that electric cars are the bright green future, opening up our way to an emission-free paradise. That’s why they have taken the dramatic step of banning the sale of new diesel and petrol cars from 2030. All motorists must turn to battery power within a decade.

No wonder there was much consternation last week when the Prime Minister’s official climate spokeswoman, Allegra Stratton, stated she wouldn’t lead by example and buy an electric vehicle (EV) herself, preferring to stick with her ‘third-hand’ diesel Volkswagen. Ms Stratton argued that she visits elderly relatives living up to 250 miles away and claimed the limited range of EVs would not allow her to do that easily. On this point, she was not entirely right. The performance of electric models is improving all the time and many have a range of more than 200 miles without recharging.

But range is the least of the obstacles to a battery-powered future. The most serious is the simple fact that electric cars must be recharged from the mains. They will vastly increase the amount of electricity Britain uses. And generating electricity will remain a dirty, inefficient, highly polluting business for decades to come.

This is where the green dream comes crashing to earth. A 2030 deadline is beyond a pipedream, it is complete fantasy. As things stand, Britain is already on the verge of power cuts. The hope, of course, is that all these electric cars and vans would be powered by sources of renewable energy, such as wind or solar, or nuclear reactors. Indeed, if that was the case, electric motoring would be largely emissions-free.

But our national power grid is a long way from eliminating fossil fuels and it is unlikely to do so for decades. Yes, coal-powered generation has declined sharply since 1993, when it provided nearly half Britain’s power, and it is true that much of the gap has been filled by renewables. But wind is an intermittent source of energy, and it doesn’t take a genius to work out that solar panels produce no power when it is dark and little on cloudy days. So, wind and sun can never be the complete answer. And while a record 43 per cent of electricity generation came from renewables in 2020 (albeit in the context of unusually low demand thanks to Covid-19), more than 37 per cent still derived from dirty fossil fuels, mostly from power stations using natural gas.

On cold, still nights, that figure is likely to climb to 80 per cent or more - particularly with more electric cars on the roads. In fact, by the time gas has been turned into electricity by giant power station turbines, and has reached a car’s electric motor via a leaky distribution network, the process is no more energy-efficient than Allegra Stratton’s old diesel. As long as we depend on gas, electric cars will bring no overall saving in emissions.

The alternative of biomass fuel is even less efficient. The huge Drax power station in North Yorkshire imports wood pulp from Canada to burn, but it would be greener to drive on diesel than use electricity made this way. One much talked about option is nuclear energy, but here, too, the future is no brighter. Britain’s building programme for new nuclear reactors has stalled, with costs spiralling. The price of the plant being constructed at Hinkley Point in Somerset has increased from £16 billion to £23 billion, with no end in sight to rising costs and no proof the technology works.

A similar design, Sizewell C in Suffolk, would take between nine and 12 years to complete, with a starting price tag of £20 billion, if the project ever gets approval in the first place. Yet six of the UK’s seven current nuclear reactors are planned to go offline by 2030 and the remaining one, Sizewell B, is due for decommissioning in 2035.

Here’s the rub. Britain is already running out of electricity. There simply won’t be enough to power Britain’s fleet of 32 million cars by 2030, not even if we continue to burn fossil fuels. Moreover, we are increasingly dependent on imported electricity - from Belgium, France, the Netherlands and Ireland. Meantime, there are unlikely to be enough electric car charging points - but that is of less importance if there’s no power flowing through them.

There were fewer than 250,000 plug-in cars on the road last winter, yet our national electricity system came close to breaking down. Last November, the country’s power distribution manager, National Grid, issued its second warning that Britain would be stretched. Fortunately, the worst did not happen, but the situation is acute during the winter months and early spring. That’s when prolonged periods of high pressure can stop wind turbines from turning and reduce the amount of energy generated by renewables to as little as two per cent of the total. Lights could start going out across the country if just one major power station suffers a mechanical failure or a shortage of fuel.

The problem is well known to our electricity planners, who thought they’d been given more time to solve it. In 2017, for instance, the National Grid was assuming that EV sales would only reach 90 per cent of all cars by 2050. Now, with the nearer deadline to ban petrol cars, there is no chance of generating sufficient electricity for millions of battery-powered vehicles. And, I wager, much of the smart technology we’re hoping to rely upon - more energy-efficient cars, for example - probably won’t be available.

There is talk of asking EV owners to limit their recharging to off-peak periods. But, with inadequate access to charging points - especially outside London - drivers mostly have to charge their vehicles when they can. This will often be during daytime peaks, placing yet more strain on our creaky infrastructure.

And, in any case, is battery technology really so green? Mining the ores required is a highly polluting business, and often uses child labour. There’s the extra weight to consider, too. A typical EV carries 600 lb in batteries, the equivalent of two adult passengers. If all 32 million of Britain’s cars really were battery-powered, they would be carrying an extra 8.5 million tons - the same as powering an extra five million vehicles.

So, Ms Stratton is right to stick to her old Volkswagen. Perhaps she knows, too, that batteries are particularly inefficient in cold weather, when the range is reduced. Who wants to be stuck at a freezing, windswept service station, waiting for a vacant charging point? Perhaps she also knows, privately, that the 2030 deadline is both unworkable and dangerous.

This green revolution on the roads risks turning the lights out across Britain. And it isn’t even green
 

Damian

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Obviously the writer is not wearing the same rose coloured spectacles as the Government do.
Anyone who is involved with batteries knows what heat and cold can do to the efficiency of them and it is plainly obvious that there is nowhere near enough supply to cater for the numbers of vehicles all needing to be charged.

The writer is a bit out on the equivalent of weight of occupants as their average works out to two people weighing 19 stone each......!!! That is like having 4 Great Danes in the car.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Obviously the writer is not wearing the same rose coloured spectacles as the Government do.
Anyone who is involved with batteries knows what heat and cold can do to the efficiency of them and it is plainly obvious that there is nowhere near enough supply to cater for the numbers of vehicles all needing to be charged.

The writer is a bit out on the equivalent of weight of occupants as their average works out to two people weighing 19 stone each......!!! That is like having 4 Great Danes in the car.
I’m a bit puzzled re the effects of cold on the battery charging. In a recent travelogue the Harley Davidsons were badly affected by the cold nighttime temperatures in Patagonia and had to be brought indoors. But conversely Norway has a high percentage of EV. What do they do in winter?
 

Damian

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It is not the charging that is the problem as such, it is the efficiency of the battery to deliver its charge .
In cold weather it can lose 20% of its effectiveness so means it has to be recharged more often.

The ideal temperature rang for batteries is 15 to 35 degrees C, below 15 degrees and the battery becomes "sluggish" in its capability to provide power, above 35 degrees and battery degradation becomes the problem.
 
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Ok more of the same negative stuff from the Daily Fail-the reason for installing smart meters is so that ev cars can be charged at home at night-there is huge spare capacity between 12 midnight and 4 or 5am-hence Octopus Go currently allow EV users electricity at this time for 5p a unit-but you do need a smart meter for this-we're working on it!!! Electric car makers have got up to speed with the charging and cars have a complex cooling and heating system for the batteries to maintain them at optimum temperature-you can then of course plug them in and precondition the car and the batteries so it is up to heat or cooled for you and so are the batteries-ready to go-this prevents a lot of the cold drop-however there is less range in the cold-typically last winter we lost 10-20 miles indicated but if you preconditioned the range was no where near as bad as the indication! Haven't got enough experience yet-but the guess o meter says 113mile now-and we easily drive 140-50 on a good run and in the winter we did the same and it was looking at 140 then! keep you posted on this but of course it's heater and speed use dependent too, lights have a small effect etc. But beware the doom sayers-we aren't yet finding it anywhere near as bad as the press seem to say. The problem with the Harleys on long way up was that they didn't have the battery heater tech-the bikes were prototypes and not sorted from what I could see. Yes I agree we are not ready for it yet but in another 8 years-we'll most definitely have improved massively over where we are now-the Ford Mustang is advertising nearly 400 mile range!
 
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Jezzer the thread is not about EVs and their range, but focuses on the supply of electric currently and in the future.
Over the past weekend we had a 4 - 5 hour outage. Somehow I don't think it is going to get any better.
Britain is not self sufficient in electric now and will not be for the next 20 or more years. Can we agree on the latter? :sneaky:
 
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My nephew has a Tesla which he often uses for long distance business meetings and visiting relatives. before he sets off though he gets the car to tell him how far he can go and plans stops for coffee or meals on that basis and has been relatively happy.
If you do not have the Tesla though you will not have access to there dedicated chargers and have to rely on the other ones where you have a variety of plugs, poor reliability, areas with no service and sometimes very high cost where the electricity will end up costing equal to the petrol or diesel anyway. You might also encounter blocking by those who plug the car in and go to work for the day rendering the point out of service to others.
On the positive side there are a number of free charging points and electricity at home is cheap for the distance it gives but the initial cost of setting up something better than the 13 amp plug system is expensive and 13 amp plugs are too slow for many.
Our neighbour has bought a smaller model as a second car and using public charging points can run it near enough for free. He is quite clear that for the moment he would not use it for longer distances.
As for the electricity needed provided people take advantage of cheaper night time tariffs the answer is that we will need to use night time charging when the requirements are lower for other things. It will also help keep costs down as several suppliers including EDF and Octopus have special tariffs for EV users.
 
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Jezzer the thread is not about EVs and their range, but focuses on the supply of electric currently and in the future.
Over the past weekend we had a 4 - 5 hour outage. Somehow I don't think it is going to get any better.
Britain is not self sufficient in electric now and will not be for the next 20 or more years. Can we agree on the latter? :sneaky:
I can't imagine your outage was shortage of electricity-more a fault-although I could be wrong but at the mo we are in the middle of a sunny windy summer and the National Grid have stated they are not concerned about the rapid rise of EVs . That may or may not be true -and they surely must be planning to improve supply-our electricity bills are going to be artificially high for some time to cover these green costs-rightly or wrongly-and I like you am not happy about that but there isn't much we can do about it. My comments on range and cold weather were in response to a conversation Damien and OtherClive were having so valid in that respect I feel. I am not denying there is a heck of a long way to go-in terms of electric car prices, green power provision but even more importantly perhaps in terms of on route chargers-the ones there are already simply aren't reliable enough and the UK is lagging behind in that we've got rid of fossil fuel power stations at a rate and not replaced with an alternative-other than wind and solar. I still haven't done a trip long enough in our EV to be familiar with how bad provision is-only once in 8 months having charged at a supermarket! We didn't buy the car for that. However I refuse to be swayed by the doom and gloom headlines of the Daily Mail! They're just after bang for buck headlines imo! There will be some truth in it I am sure and I will agree with you there's a heck of a way to go -but we are in the infancy of a complete change in transport.
 
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However I refuse to be swayed by the doom and gloom headlines of the Daily Mail! They're just after bang for buck headlines imo! There will be some truth in it I am sure and I will agree with you there's a heck of a way to go -but we are in the infancy of a complete change in transport.
You are probably correct about it being a fault in our supply however without fail for the past few winters we have had power failures. Unfortunately as a consumer we are not privy to that sort of information, but do know that they had to replace the unit of the pole near us due to it overloading as we do not have gas into our village.
As you have bought an EV I can understand your reluctance to accept what seems to be obvious to many with regard to the supply of electric in the future as Britain is not self sufficient on the supply of electric.
If other countries reduce or even terminate the supply of gas or electric or both to Britain, we won't be in hot water, but in freezing cold water. Even if we took EVs totally out of the picture, Britain probably would still suffer from lack of supply as the population expands and more and more people require electric.
IMHO I think that it is very short sighted of any government to rely on supply of power from outside sources and I certainly hope that this will be remedied in the near future.
 
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Few if any EU countries are self sufficient in power as the EU aim was to develop an integrated energy market. UK was a part of that approach, and since Brexit UK is still participating in the various interconnecter programmes. One of the problems of self sufficiency in isolation is that it leads to overcapacity and unnecessary expense. The Chinese government gave each region autonomy to develop their own energy market and infrastructure. The nett result was that each regional governor went he'll bent for maximising coal stations. When Beijing realised what was happening the authority to regions was withdrawn but by then it was too late as many new coal stations were built or in the process of being built. So what they decide to do then is to start to retire old ones and continue with the newer more efficient ones. Still not a good outcome though.

UKs problem is a woeful lack of funding for infrastructure to modernise the distribution network and almost no progress on building nuclear stations apart from Hinkley C. Near us are new overhead electrification gantries but the cables have been deferred indefinitely. So we have trains with electric overhead collectors which now carry diesel generators for the end part of the journey. You could not make it up.I don't believe that you can expect private industry and investors (your pension pots) to finance high risk programmes without high rewards.

https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/files/documents/20130902_energy_integration_benefits.pdf
 
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Same old stuff ! But Buckman hits the nail on the head. Whilst EV is clearly coming, like it or not, where does the power come from? Relationships with our EU and Eastern European cousins are chilly to say the least. You have to ask yourself. Can we be totally independent of other Countries for our electricity supply in 2030?
 
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JTQ

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As you have bought an EV I can understand your reluctance to accept what seems to be obvious to many with regard to the supply of electric in the future as Britain is not self sufficient on the supply of electric.


IMHO I think that it is very short sighted of any government to rely on supply of power from outside sources and I certainly hope that this will be remedied in the near future.

Nor of course, for that point, are we self-sufficient on our petrol, diesel or LPGs, energy sources, so why has the DM focused on just our electrical energy, other than to write column inches for a receptive clientele?

Yes the country is in multiple messes, we seem to specialise in it.
 
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Same old stuff ! But Buckman hits the nail on the head. Whilst EV is clearly coming, like it or not, where does the power come from? Relationships with our EU and Eastern European cousins are chilly to say the least. You have to ask yourself. Can we be totally independent of other Countries for our electricity supply in 2030?
We have not been independent of other countries now for many years, probably since the days of British coal mines and coal/oil fired power stations and the Magnox/AGR stations. Hence our support to the electricity interconnections that link us to the continent. We import and export via those links, and it keeps our prices down. and provides for resilience against a number of scenarios.
 
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We have not been independent of other countries now for many years, probably since the days of British coal mines and coal/oil fired power stations and the Magnox/AGR stations. Hence our support to the electricity interconnections that link us to the continent. We import and export via those links, and it keeps our prices down.
But for how long? M Macron Will chop us tomorrow. Lest we forget! Time to generate our own😃
 
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Nor of course, for that point, are we self-sufficient on our petrol, diesel or LPGs, energy sources, so why has the DM focused on just our electrical energy, other than to write column inches for a receptive clientele?

Yes the country is in multiple messes, we seem to specialise in it.
A very valid point however electric is used to heat homes and power many daily items in our lives i.e. kettle for your tea, cook dinner etc.
Most people are aware that we are not self sufficient for oil and gas and that supplies of these commodities are limited. However many people think that we have no issue with electric and the supply is endless when it is not under current circumstances. That is the difference. Perception.
 
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Contrary to the long cut and pasted article, which I'm afraid continues to make out dated arguments about the not enough capacity to charge all the EV's The National grid several years ago now openly stated they have the capacity to charge the Ev's but it wold have to be done at certain times when there is surplus generating capacity for example over night. This can already be done as many cars have built in timers, or it could be done using smart switching.

But in addition it is anticipated that the grid will be bolstered by the up and coming grid storage solutions, which come in various forms from large scale battery systems, similar to those being deployed in Australia and elsewhere, but also in more local schemes, and at a personal level either as house batteries, or the big battery in your EV.

I do suspect if teh entire nation were to try and charge every EV from empty to full each night, theri might be some problems, but the reality is the average daily mileage is less than 30 miles which means most EV's will not be charged every night, and many might only be charged one a week or less.

So it's nowhere as doom ridden as the paper article tries to make out.

Having a power outage is far more likely to be a local issue rather than indicating we don't have enough generator capacity.
 
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but the reality is the average daily mileage is less than 30 miles which means most EV's will not be charged every night, and many might only be charged one a week or less.

What happens to people like me who do up-to 300 miles in one day? I’m not convinced we have enough generation capability to be self sufficient.
 
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but the reality is the average daily mileage is less than 30 miles which means most EV's will not be charged every night, and many might only be charged one a week or less.

What happens to people like me who do up-to 300 miles in one day? I’m not convinced we have enough generation capability to be self sufficient.
Come on Dusty, You know full well that an average does not mean everyone does exactly the same, its and arithmetic mean, which means it encompasess those who never reach and those who greatly exceed the average.

The fact that you might do 300 miles will be countered by a 100 who only do 3 miles. the system has enough flexibility to handle these variations.

Don't make the mistake of looking future demand and its impact on the systems we have today. It is true that if suddenly overnight everyone switched to EV's, the present infrastructure would have problems coping.

Renewables have already proven it can provide enough power (at low demand periods) to cover the nations whole generation needs, We are presently seeing an unprecedented growth of of the renewable generation sector, and that means its total output can carry an increasing percentage of our needs. Couple this to grid storage, and it will be able to cover the changes to demand and most if not all of the power we presently import.

But we are not all going to switch overnight - it's going take several decades to complete the entire switch to EV. Tha'ts several decades where we will see the local infrastructures being bolstered by various means to capture the power when it can be generated, and feed it to the grid when it's needed.

It has always been the case we have to live within the total generation capability we can call on (whether its imported or not) and if there are shortfalls then we will have to reduce our demand. But we are already looking at reducing our call on energy, by improving insulation, and utilising the power have more efficiently.

I'm not going promise there won't be problems for some, but whatever happens we will have to adapt to the new circumstances, - and we will adapt!
 
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You are probably correct about it being a fault in our supply however without fail for the past few winters we have had power failures. Unfortunately as a consumer we are not privy to that sort of information, but do know that they had to replace the unit of the pole near us due to it overloading as we do not have gas into our village.
As you have bought an EV I can understand your reluctance to accept what seems to be obvious to many with regard to the supply of electric in the future as Britain is not self sufficient on the supply of electric.
If other countries reduce or even terminate the supply of gas or electric or both to Britain, we won't be in hot water, but in freezing cold water. Even if we took EVs totally out of the picture, Britain probably would still suffer from lack of supply as the population expands and more and more people require electric.
IMHO I think that it is very short sighted of any government to rely on supply of power from outside sources and I certainly hope that this will be remedied in the near future.
No I fully agree with you. Our governments have stupidly thrown out coal before providing enough alternatives. Carbon traps could have kept them going till we were prepared. Perhaps. Very very short sighted imo but too late now. Or simply invest but if course they have been too slow.
 
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No I fully agree with you. Our governments have stupidly thrown out coal before providing enough alternatives. Carbon traps could have kept them going till we were prepared. Perhaps. Very very short sighted imo but too late now. Or simply invest but if course they have been too slow.
It is not in the best interests of any country to rely on outside third parties for the supply of power to a nation. The third party could force through a huge increase in cost or even cut off the supply and hold a nation to ransom. How many other countries in the EU import power?
Our current power distribution companies would never be able to cope if presented with the above scenario especially in the winter period. Not sure why there is such a reluctance by consecutive governments to invest in new power stations for the UK?
 
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It is not in the best interests of any country to rely on outside third parties for the supply of power to a nation. The third party could force through a huge increase in cost or even cut off the supply and hold a nation to ransom. How many other countries in the EU import power?
Our current power distribution companies would never be able to cope if presented with the above scenario especially in the winter period. Not sure why there is such a reluctance by consecutive governments to invest in new power stations for the UK?
If you read the link in my reply to one of your posts of yesterday it describes the European energy market. All countries of the EU imported and exported energy between themselves be electricity or gas. None were totally self sufficient. Some are reliant too on imports of gas from non EU providers.

#11
 
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Contrary to the long cut and pasted article, which I'm afraid continues to make out dated arguments about the not enough capacity to charge all the EV's The National grid several years ago now openly stated they have the capacity to charge the Ev's but it wold have to be done at certain times when there is surplus generating capacity for example over night. This can already be done as many cars have built in timers, or it could be done using smart switching.

But in addition it is anticipated that the grid will be bolstered by the up and coming grid storage solutions, which come in various forms from large scale battery systems, similar to those being deployed in Australia and elsewhere, but also in more local schemes, and at a personal level either as house batteries, or the big battery in your EV.

I do suspect if teh entire nation were to try and charge every EV from empty to full each night, theri might be some problems, but the reality is the average daily mileage is less than 30 miles which means most EV's will not be charged every night, and many might only be charged one a week or less.

So it's nowhere as doom ridden as the paper article tries to make out.

Having a power outage is far more likely to be a local issue rather than indicating we don't have enough generator capacity.
Prof
Europe’s largest battery storage facility has recently been built in Wiltshire. 2x50mega watts. More solar farms have submitted planning applications, not unexpectedly locals are objecting.
 
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If you read the link in my reply to one of your posts of yesterday it describes the European energy market. All countries of the EU imported and exported energy between themselves be electricity or gas. None were totally self sufficient. Some are reliant too on imports of gas from non EU providers.

#11
Thank you for reminding me. Still puzzling why UK governments do not want to invest in new power stations?
 
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Good note thanks Prof.
I have been converted to EV and appreciate the new technologies that are still developing beyond our wildest dreams. See some of my earlier posts.
My main concern is the UKs future ability to self generate the electricity needed. If we become dependent on EU or TP countries for our supplies that may well cause us longer term economic issues.
The irony is that in my parents day during WW2 the U.K. was totally self generating. I’d like to see that situation return😎
 
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