For the Newbies,

[Dustydog]

Those were the days Colin when we were young and fit.12 foot caravans were much lighter as was the nose weight.
Today I doubt I could lift 80+ kgs. 12.5stones in English with one hand grabbing the hitch.In fact I wonder just how strong the hitch handle is?
With good advice and a demo from our Royal Woosieness I bought a Reich digital nose weight gauge. Never looked back.NB these gauges come in two variants. Single or Twin axles.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The old inertia's are showing their heads again.

I cannot possibly condone any activity that blatantly allow dangerous or illegal practices to occur or be perpetuated.

 

[Raywood]

The old inertia's are showing their heads again.

I cannot possibly condone any activity that blatantly allow dangerous or illegal practices to occur or be perpetuated.

Agree that you are correct on the legal position but I find it difficult to believe that action would be taken for one cylinder but someone taking more might be in trouble.
Bearing in mind these are going to be empty you are simply going to exchange them so no problem with them being dangerous. If they are faulty then Calor or whoever would deal with that. It does baffle me why people throw away these valuable cylinders though.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

The old inertia's are showing their heads again.

I cannot possibly condone any activity that blatantly allow dangerous or illegal practices to occur or be perpetuated.

that is the problem with caravanning now, common sense has gone out the window in favour of reams of legislation to make everything idiot proof, like domestic plugs, every appliance come fitted with one so some dum'ass doesn't wire it up wrong. all they need is instructions on how to push it into the socket and turn on the switch. despite the plugs being sold separately everywhere from the local supermarket to Screwfix.

noseweight comes into the same category yes there are legal limits, and most check theirs before the holiday break after loading the van, but once the vans loaded and one knows where everything is stored, to stay legal one must then find some level hard standing, unhitch the van, check the nose weight with a accurate calibrated gauge every time one moves the van, yeah right that will be just one person then..

Dusty's right it is a strong bloke that could lift 80kg one handed, I can't for one, it may be an old fashioned out of date antiquated idea but common sense tells you if you can lift it then it ain't going to be overweight.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

With good advice and a demo from our Royal Woosieness I bought a Reich digital nose weight gauge. Never looked back.

We bought one about a year ago and find it very good as well.

NB these gauges come in two variants. Single or Twin axles.

?????? Surely the weight on the tow ball is just that. How does the ball know whether the trailer is single or twin (or even triple) axle?

 

[Dustydog]

With good advice and a demo from our Royal Woosieness I bought a Reich digital nose weight gauge. Never looked back.

We bought one about a year ago and find it very good as well.

NB these gauges come in two variants. Single or Twin axles.

?????? Surely the weight on the tow ball is just that. How does the ball know whether the trailer is single or twin (or even triple) axle?

Apparently not Sir WC. A TA is more sensitive than a SA. Thus Reich do different ones.
Don't ask me for a Prof style reason but it is important and not done on a whim.

 

[Martin24]

Colin you are so very right!! Think I'll stick to my ways of doing things :silly:

 

[Hutch]

Whilst trying to find anything legal about nose weight, I stumbled upon this.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weight-and-width-limits
Have a lot of us with caravans longer than 7 meters been towing Illegaly.
Anybody know.
Hutch.

 

[ProfJohnL]

?????? Surely the weight on the tow ball is just that. How does the ball know whether the trailer is single or twin (or even triple) axle?

Woodlands have you not followed the nose weight debates?

THe tow ball does not know what type of trailer is attached, but the type of trailer will determine the way the nose load is applied.

The nose load a trailer produces will change if you vary the height of the hitch. Consequently if your digital gauge is 75mm tall, its raising the hitch by 75mm which affects the amount of nose load it produces. Whist for a single axle caravan there are ways to work out how to compensate for the height of the measuring device, it is very different for a twin axle caravan where not only is the change in load far more dramatic, the direction of change can also be different depending on how you have loaded the caravan.

That is why the official way of measuring nose load is with the hitch at its towing height. not above or below it.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Woodlands have you not followed the nose weight debates?

Yes, I have followed, but still thought the question was valid, and I still do.

The devices are static measuring devices not dynamic, therefore they don't know is on the other end of the chassis.

 

[Dustydog]

Sir WC
Have a look at the posts on the following link.

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/44950-twin-axle-noseweight

 

[Dustydog]

The following also explains the difference between the SA and TA

http://www.caravanmoversonline.co.uk/reich/TLC-towbar-load-control.html

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

It's all double [strike]axle[/strike] dutch to me. :S

 

[Gagakev]

Whilst trying to find anything legal about nose weight, I stumbled upon this.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weight-and-width-limits
Have a lot of us with caravans longer than 7 meters been towing Illegaly.
Anybody know.
Hutch.

Hutch thats the actual van body length at 7.0m it does not include the A frame.
My van at 6.4m body and A Frame at 1.55m takes me way over what you are thinking.
If I am wrong then I will blame this forum as this is were my info came from years ago
There's too many vans on our roads over that length!!!

 

[Hutch]

Thanks Gagakev, I found a bit more about it in Gov. Uk and it it is stating , what you have said. But I must be getting close to the limits. Tape measure out again.
Hutch.

 

[Gagakev]

Thanks Gagakev, I found a bit more about it in Gov. Uk and it it is stating , what you have said. But I must be getting close to the limits. Tape measure out again.
Hutch.

Coachman VIP 560 Caravan Details
Internal Length:5.79m / 19'0External Length:7.47m / 24'6Width:2.31m / 7'7
Caravn Finder
Stop worrying

 

[Dustydog]

As far as I know Hutch's isn't the longest :lol:
Parksy's and mine come is at 7.98m. There are even longer ones like the Hobby but they need a cv type vehicle as a tug.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Woodlands have you not followed the nose weight debates?

Yes, I have followed, but still thought the question was valid, and I still do.

The devices are static measuring devices not dynamic, therefore they don't know is on the other end of the chassis.

That is true: the measuring device is dumb and will only show the force applied to it, but if the measuring device adds height to the hitch (which the Reich does) then the load applied is not the same as if the hitch were coupled directly to the car. Its the fact the of the trailers hitch is raised that alters the force generated.

I also dispute Reich's claim to have included compensation for the hitch height, as the scale of nose load variation with height is not a constant for all caravans; it's dependant on the distance from the hitch to the axle centre, the way the caravan is loaded which produces a variable Centre of Mass, how high and how far forward of the axle the CoM is and how heavy the caravan is. As virtually all of those are variables, and as there is no way of entering those details into the reich device it cannot possibly calculate the error due to the height of the device.

And it's even more complicated for Twin Axle caravans as the independent suspension of each of the axles interacts with the other which gives rise to a much more abrupt change in nose load with any change of hitch height.

The danger is; if by measuring the nose load with a raised hitch and you set it for the maximum allowed, then when the hitch is coupled directly to the car, the hitch will have a reduced height, and for an SA that will increase the applied load which will exceed the legal & safety limit for the vehicle.

The situation is even more bizarre for an TA, as the change in applied nose for the same difference in hitch height load is much greater than for an SA And depending on the specific characteristics of the trailer involved the nose load may increase or even decrease!

 

[Raywood]

My schoolboy physics does confirm that the height of the hitch should affect the nose weight, but I have no idea how big a difference it makes and it probably depends on the loading. It does seem that bearing in mind the cars tow ball will drop to some extent once you hitch up you need to do this and measure the height when hitched and take the nose weight at that height to be completely sure of your position.
Has anybody checked the difference at differing heights to see if it is worthwhile getting the height right.

 

[Dustydog]

Oh Dear
So my new Reich gauge maybe in error
Under SoGa how can I prove the Prof's points and request a refund :S
Actually the problem may be worse than the Prof says.
As the load is applied to the hitch and Reich the cars suspension will sag to a nose down attitude which will distort the nw.
I have to be an optimist and assume today Reich are no fools and have allowed for all the points raised.
Well they must have thought about or why else are they selling the two versions.Certainly there is nothing in their instructions that high lights the issues raised here.
So what next hmy: :huh:

 

[Martin24]

Next? Back to the tried and tested lift the front and see hit or miss if too heavy or light. :silly:

 

[Dustydog]

Next? Back to the tried and tested lift the front and see hit or miss if too heavy or light. :silly:

I think you have something here Martin.
My mum always said go back to basics

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Calibrate the Reich against the tried and trusted method of bathroom scales and broomstick. I've yet to calibrate the boomstick though against the new car. I must also go and weight the car some time.

 

[Martin24]

How have we done it again? Hutch asks a simple gas bottle question and we've managed to turn it into yet another thread about nose weight. We're good aren't we! :dry:

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

That is true:

An accolade from the Prof. hmy: I am honoured.