Giving Forum Advice.

[ProfJohnL]

Ok we are getting into specifics now.

Just clarify what Other Clive has suggested. There is a difference to between brand new electrical installations and extensions to electrical installations.

It is both reasonable and a legal requirement that a new total installation or rewiring of a an installation must be carried to be compliant with the the current IEEE wiring regulations. The law does not specify who must do the work, only that the works must be signed off by an approved installer.

Because the signing off means the tester is accepting responsibility for the installation and its compliance and safety, it is actually quite difficult to find an approved tester who will sign off work they have not done or at least witnessed being done by themselves.

Unless the tester is fully aware of the installers capability and integrity they are unlikely to sign off work just based on instrumentation measurements, without exposing at least some of the underlying work.

These days home owners can undertake certain basic repairs such a replacing switches and sockets, but any additions to a fixed wiring system will probably fall under a part P requirement.

Gas however is a different matter. It is a legal requirement for ALL* gas fitting to be under taken by a ticketed professional - That is the law - *except for privately owned touring and self propelled motor caravans used exclusively by the owner! This is one a of a few very specific exceptions written into the Gas Safety (Installations and Use ) Regulations, and it basically allows any owner to undertake gas installation and repairs in their own private touring caravan or motor home. No one else but the owner has that dispensation, so for example the owner cannot ask any one else to do the work (not even a family member) unless they are ticketed to work on the system.

Even though the law allows owners to work on their own touring caravan or motorhome, the requirement for the design and quality of work to be up to standard still stands, and of course that include the pre and post testing of the system for compliance.

If the touring caravan is lent or hired out in any form then the dispensation does not apply - so consider that if you take a family on holiday it could be construed that you are hiring/loaning the caravan to the rest of your family and as such they have the individuals right to expect that all gas and electrical systems are fully up to legal safety standards.

As a past professional in the field, I can see the sense behind these legislation's. Its not to create work for the boys, but it is to drive up standards of safety.

This is not an attempt to stifle DIY which is how some seem to interpret the law, but its is to try and ensure that at least for some hazardous materials and process, proper due care is exercised, and that can only be achieved if the DIY'er is aware of the restrictions that apply.

Unless Haymarket or admin or moderators ask me not to post. I will continue to offer measured advice based on the questions we receive. If those questions raise alarm bells about the proberty of a questioner's ability or knowledge then I reserve the right to point it out.

I would rather be accused of over caution, than to find someone has done something stupid and injured themselves or someone else.

 

[Parksy]

Ok we are getting into specifics now.
...Unless Haymarket or admin or moderators ask me not to post. I will continue to offer measured advice based on the questions we receive. If those questions raise alarm bells about the proberty of a questioner's ability or knowledge then I reserve the right to point it out.

I would rather be accused of over caution, than to find someone has done something stupid and injured themselves or someone else.

You have every right to offer the sound measured advice that has earned you over 500 'thank you' responses as a sign of gratitude from fellow forum members Prof.
An internet forum is host to a wide spectrum of opinion, you have no need to defend or to justify your approach to anyone.

 

[Martin24]

Quite agree DD it's good to see the DIY aspect back in PC. I think the whole caravan community misses JW and his pearls of wisdom encouraging us to get out our tool kits.
Hopefully Nigel will continue to provide helpful words of wisdom.

As people will know I did used to do most things myself, the servicing of the van has been for many years done by approved workshop purely for warranty protection.

Now of course I have to have "professional" people to do everything for me in the caravan and at home that Jenny does't feel inclined to tackle. We are very lucky in we have an excellent caravan service workshop just down the road run by a couple who are now our friends.
In addition we have excellent trades people that turn their hands to everything we ask and also put us in touch with others who can do for us if they can't. Our plumber is no longer registered for gas works BUT his chum comes in and certifies the work. I was shocked when our electrician came and found our earthing was somewhat lacking. We now even have a certificate to say it's fine and dandy. Yes the world has gone too far the other way but that's because so many are in this sad place where they want to sue anybody and everybody to death. This puts the rest of us in a sorry state.

I apologise to one and all if I was on a soap box earlier today and HNB it's not a question of quoting the law and stirring things up it's more a case of trying to support people on the forum to try and make sure they do not fall foul of the over protective laws of the land and getting into trouble IF something goes wrong.

We are part of a group of people that take a lot of stick from the outside world of non caravaners and I like to think that we all look out for each other even if the tone is sometimes misconstrued

 

[Dustydog]

Ok we are getting into specifics now.
...Unless Haymarket or admin or moderators ask me not to post. I will continue to offer measured advice based on the questions we receive. If those questions raise alarm bells about the proberty of a questioner's ability or knowledge then I reserve the right to point it out.

I would rather be accused of over caution, than to find someone has done something stupid and injured themselves or someone else.

You have every right to offer the sound measured advice that has earned you over 500 'thank you' responses as a sign of gratitude from fellow forum members Prof.
An internet forum is host to a wide spectrum of opinion, you have no need to defend or to justify your approach to anyone.

Fully agree with the Prof and Parksy on the above.
Sadly it is still noteworthy ,as Damian knows, the so called authorised "gas/ electricity responsible person " signs off new caravans that are inherently faulty.
I believe we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

[ProfJohnL]

You have every right to offer the sound measured advice that has earned you over 500 'thank you' responses as a sign of gratitude from fellow forum members Prof.
An internet forum is host to a wide spectrum of opinion, you have no need to defend or to justify your approach to anyone.

Thank you Parksy,
I am well aware of the wide ranging views that contributors have. That is the nature of forums. I am also grateful for those posters who have seen fit to thank me, hopefully becasue Iv'e actually helped them.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Imo, if a poster asks a question for advice/guidance on something, instead of straight away been told it is obviously beyond their capabilities because you asked said question, why not give the advice and guidance then the poster can decide whether it actually is and they want to tackle it or not.

A little help/guidance can really help that bit of doubt.

I recently asked a question and my reply was get a professional to do it. Not really helpful, i will do it myself either way as i have done bits like it before,and am happy to do it, but a bit of guidance/advice/tips does go along the way.

But generally a very helpful forum!

One person on the forum suggested a professional if we're talking about caravan sockets. No one else did so I think on the whole even on that thread you were given reasonable advice. I also hope that you house extension electrics met with all legal requirements and were as they should be in all cases signed off by a qualified electrician.

i do not just mean my posts,i have seen others also with various advice threads with the same response. I am not trying to get into an argument over this, i am just stating what i have seen/read.

And yes, i did get some good info as i request on that thread.

As for house electrics, it was all done correctly to a standard which i know is fine, along with all car electrics i have done before. To then get an electrician in, and pay for testing etc, does that not defeat the point of doing it yourself and not having to pay someone to come round, the whole point of saving yourself money. How many people actully do this.

Hello HNB

You make an important and impassioned point, and I can fully understand how you may have viewed some of my responses. Please understand I do not make such responses as a personal slur, they are certainly not intended that way.

The problem I have is that having been a professionally trained and qualified engineer working in a business that had strong links with the caravanning life, I am acutely aware of issues that can arise when work on sensitive systems is carried out by people who have frankly not adequate skills to do the work. Unlike Damian, I was not involved with regular servicing, so I only tended to see situations where things didn't work.

It is an inherent problem with forums like Practical Caravans's where users are hidden by anonymity, it prevents everyone from being able to verify the qualifications and capabilities of other posters. This works both ways, in so far you have no means of verifying my claims, and likewise I cannot know your qualifications, experience or capabilities. We only have what is written in posts to go on, and frankly it's unusual and impractical to go off topic to look at what posters have previously written, so just becasue someone may have posted more details in a previous thread does not mean everyone will know about it.

As a consequence we have to look for clues in what posters actually write! It is reasonable to expect posters will use language that is commensurate with their competence, so if I see language or points that suggest the author does not have competence in a subject, I will choose to offer advice that reflects the most appropriate course of action, specially where there are regulatory requirements to be met.

For example it would be reasonable to expect that a competent electrician would not need to ask about the required CSA of a 230V mains wiring system. Or an LPG Gas engineer asking what the working pressure in a caravan is. Such questions give rise to serious concerns bout the posters knowledge and thus competency to work with such systems. Some posters use less obvious contradictions so its down to experience to interpret the signs. Sometime I may be wrong.

When faced with such dilemma's I can't risk encouraging the continuance of such tinkering which could lead to a dangerous job. I will also not compromise my own professional integrity by suggesting or approving a course of action that will lead to an illegal act.

Coming to your last point, I view the purpose of DIY to have two prime purposes in no specific order, first is to save money, and the second to have the satisfaction and to prove to ones self that you can do a good job. DIY is not about cutting corners and avoiding regulatory requirements.

EDIT : Please see the good Dr Zhivago's post below

 

[DrZhivago]

I view the purpose of DIY to have two prime purposes in no specific order, first is to save money, and the second to have the satisfaction and to prove to ones self that you can do a good job

Those are not my prime purposes, so clearly individuals have different motives. I think I left the stage of needing to prove things to myself behind some years ago (too long). My main reason is dissatisfaction with what I can buy, whether components or service. When I am making something for myself I can make exactly the thing that I want, not something a manufacturer is guessing I want, or what Mr Average wants.

Sometimes when I buy something I promptly take it to pieces and rebuild it my way, tending to keep the "cosmetic" manufactured parts because manufacturers are usually good at that but not so good with the parts you cannot see. I bought some kitchen units once (for example) and promptly threw away all the feet and made my own to replace them. Their feet were almost useless unless you were happy with seeing them bend with the weight of the units they were supposed to carry.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

yeah I agree with the Dr. almost always sorted things out myself. there used to be a saying "those that can do, do it. those that can't get a man in".
believed for years there is something called a practical gene, some have it others don't. if you do, DIY is the perfect outlet for this skill. most things can be repaired and are built in a logical manner that lends it's self to a simple repair in most cases.
caravanning used to be by it's nature a practical hobby and most exponents did it themselves it was the only way, now it seems this aspect is lost on some. where the "get the man in" is the first consideration when something goes awry.

this may or may not be intentional but that's how it comes across in the threads. like doing something yourself is a black art to be discouraged at all costs. I have said on many occasions the only difference between a good DIY'er and a professional is one gets paid for doing it the other doesn't. the quality of the work undertaken can be good or bad no matter who does it. so why trust one more than the other if you have the skills.
most things can be learned if explained properly. as anyone who has built a Ikea unit will understand. :lol: :lol: :lol:.

 

[Gafferbill]

What is increasing true is that a DIY,er has to know where the blocks on what he can and can't do lie.
I have always done DIY and I have done a lot of modifications on my 22 year old caravan owned since new.
I know I would have to return a lot of these mods back to standard specification if I was ever to sell it.
A new owner simply would not know what I had changed and that could be dangerous.

In 2006 I fitted some Wicks supplied French Doors and a new front door to my sons house.
The job was to a high standard and was done at half the price of a professional.
What I did not realise was that since 2002 any installation has to be certified by a Fensa registered installer.
Such an installer provides a certificate that is required should you ever sell the property.
Well in 2014 my son sold the property and could not provide a Fensa Certificate to the buyer.
He had to provide a legal indemnity against any future problems in lieu.
So installing doors and windows is now on a par with gas installations.

 

[VicMallows]

The house buyer may well 'try it on' and ask (probably via his Solicitor) for an indemnity (against what? - the window damaging someone?). If you are desperate to sell you might choose to comply for your convenience.
If not, and the buyer really wants the house, he will soon change his tune. There used to be a standard phrase: ".....to the best of my knowledge, but the buyer should rely on his own enquiries (survey/etc)" . Is this no longer used? . Also, although Solicitors advise, ultimately they should follow their clients instructions.

 

[Dustydog]

What is increasing true is that a DIY,er has to know where the blocks on what he can and can't do lie.
I have always done DIY and I have done a lot of modifications on my 22 year old caravan owned since new.
I know I would have to return a lot of these mods back to standard specification if I was ever to sell it.
A new owner simply would not know what I had changed and that could be dangerous.

In 2006 I fitted some Wicks supplied French Doors and a new front door to my sons house.
The job was to a high standard and was done at half the price of a professional.
What I did not realise was that since 2002 any installation has to be certified by a Fensa registered installer.
Such an installer provides a certificate that is required should you ever sell the property.
Well in 2014 my son sold the property and could not provide a Fensa Certificate to the buyer.
He had to provide a legal indemnity against any future problems in lieu.
So installing doors and windows is now on a par with gas installations.

One wonders why Wicks sell them as DIY to a non Fensa person? They must know the rules?
Soon none of us will be able to buy anything for DIY unless we are fully qualified in this and that hmy:

 

[Martin24]

The only thing I'm qualified for is being a Woosie

 

[Jaydug]

What I did not realise was that since 2002 any installation has to be certified by a Fensa registered installer.
Such an installer provides a certificate that is required should you ever sell the property.
.So installing doors and windows is now on a par with gas installations.

I've been a customer of a FENSA registered trade supplier of windows and doors for years. He has supplied me with several Rehau upvc doors and loads of windows for my own and daughters' houses. He knows I'm nothing more that a DIY man yet he never refuses an order. Incidentally when I wanted bay windows fitted in the front of the house, because of the size and the need to support the apex, I got a contractor to do it. Frankly I was appalled at the amount of polyurethane foam that went in to compensate for poor measuring..

Yes Bill, just something else we're not allowed to do. Maybe next we'll be stopped doing our own car servicing. Watch out you gardeners. They may be watching you. :lol:

 

[colin-yorkshire]

In 2006 I fitted some Wicks supplied French Doors and a new front door to my sons house.
The job was to a high standard and was done at half the price of a professional.
What I did not realise was that since 2002 any installation has to be certified by a Fensa registered installer.
Such an installer provides a certificate that is required should you ever sell the property.
Well in 2014 my son sold the property and could not provide a Fensa Certificate to the buyer.
He had to provide a legal indemnity against any future problems in lieu.
So installing doors and windows is now on a par with gas installations.

now I find that very strange. not saying it's wrong just strange. in 2007 we had the regeneration exercise. done by the council. now when I bought the house. in 1986 I just about rebuilt it completely the only two jobs done professionally was to connect the new consumer unit to the mains. and connect the gas boiler to the meter.
both were done by the supplier at great cost but there was no other way. all the work was tested, approved, and connected.
so after 21 years some things were a little dated so I took the opportunity to have it all redone at a fraction of the cost [hey why not :lol: ] they changed the windows and doors. fitted a new roof. redid the gas with a new boiler. fitted a new mcb consumer unit. did the rewiring, changed the front step [for wheelchair use] put in a new damp course.
and re pointed the whole house. and fitted a new type of loft insulation. great. but the thing is I was never issued any type of certificate at all for any of the work done. it was all sorted by the council.
so who has my certificates. I could not produce any. the council never offered any and the main contractor went bust in 2012.

 

[Gafferbill]

Colin........I am no expert on this but I do know that the Fensa certification is primarily concerned to make sure building regulations are complied with.
You will know that building regulations are enforced by local government officers (The Council).
Since they organised your work it will comply with the building regulations.
I would ask your local planning office what paperwork they can provide should you wish to sell.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

thanks Bill. I know there was a clause in the contract that after the work was completed we could not sell the house for the next 5 years. or have to pay back to the council the full cost of the work.
that time has well elapsed so maybe they kept all the paper work for 5 years [to stop you selling it] and not sent it on.
not that it matters I have no intention of ever moving. when I leave it will be in a box, feet first.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The only thing I'm qualified for is being a Woosie

:blink: Can you prove it? :lol:

 

[Martin24]

The only thing I'm qualified for is being a Woosie

:blink: Can you prove it? :lol:

I gotten some oliggies in the late '80's. More than wot the boy in the BT ads got.

 

[Gafferbill]

The only thing I'm qualified for is being a Woosie

:blink: Can you prove it? :lol:

He can't prove it .......but I can!

Being the current King and in charge of all things Woosie I herby proclaim that Martin24 is a fully qualified knight of the Woosie round table and is fully certifiable.

What is more he is hereby awarded a BAR for being modest of his undoubted abilities.

He shall be known to all Woosies as........Sir Outnumbered BAR WC (4:1)

 

[Martin24]

Thank you oh Kingly one for the honour of the bar and the compliments around my certifiable nature. I shall change my signature hence forth.

Always your most humble servant.

 

[Bwlch]

Regarding fitting windows without a fensa certificate. It is possible to apply to building control in the same way you would (should) for any notifiable works and for a fee they will inspect and certify the instalation for you. No reason not to do it yourself just pay the government for permission.

 

[DaveA1]

Regarding fitting windows without a fensa certificate. It is possible to apply to building control in the same way you would (should) for any notifiable works and for a fee they will inspect and certify the instalation for you. No reason not to do it yourself just pay the government for permission.

That's what I did. I fitted a wood burning stove in my bungalow. There was no fire place or chimney, so had to start from scratch. I applied to the council, paid my fee and they inspected my work through the build , all DIY. Certified and sign off by the council at the end of the build.

 

[Anseo]

Ignore please, post went to wrong section.

 

[Anseo]

Ignore again please, for some reason my replies are going to a topic other than that intended, is there a gremlin at play ?