Giving Forum Advice.

[ProfJohnL]

Is caravanning still a DIY prospect, the answer is yes, and there are still plenty of jobs on a car or caravan that can be a good projects and safe ways of saving money. It has always been one of my goals with DIY to be able to have pride in a job well done, and where appropriate in accordance with regulations.

In addition to general light engineering I used to be both CORGI and IEEE approved to work on LPG and Electrical systems my accreditation has since retiring lapsed, so whilst I have extensive knowledge and experience I no longer work on other caravans that requires a certified competent person.

Over my working life I had to look at many peoples caravans usually becasue a products wasn't working properly, and it has never ceased to amaze me the number of non conforming issues that were the root cause of the products apparent failure. But not all of these were DIY issues- some were faults factory build issues and some created by dealers. In some notable instances DIY jobs were very unsafe even causing injury to the owner or other people. This all points to the truth of the adage a little knowledge can be dangerous.

So even though I will sometimes recommend using a professional - nothings 100% perfect, but there is a grater probability of a Pro doing a proper.

PC Forum is a great places to swap experiences, see opinions, ideas and ask questions and offer advice, but it is can be used by almost anyone, from the out and out rank amateur to the seasoned professional, and becasue it's all anonymised there is no positive way of determining the capability or mind set of who is asking questions or offering advise (with the exceptions of the moderators and the PC admin staff).

We see posts where:
-A blatant illegal practice has been, or is suggested
-The nature of the question raises real concerns about the knowledge or capability of the poster
-Insufficient information to fully identify products or symptoms
-information is wrong or conflicting

In such cases or where there is some other concern, isn't wise to point out the risks and requirements or refer them to someone who should be able to help, and who might that be? i.e. a professional!

We must also bear in mind that there will be others who may search the forum for a similar issue and find answers They may be a total novice and they need the full picture. Anyone has a choice to read advice of not, and no one is forced by the forum to follow any advice given, A truly competent person will be able to navigate the advice given and choose the appropriate level for themselves.

It is necessary to inform readers if there are regulatory issues as not everyone is so ready to ignore such matters as some on this forum seem to be.

 

[camel]

Prof,
Good advice, I think there are plenty of forum members that contribute and give good expert knowledge on caravanning issues you being one of them, but is it not common sense that even for a gas test you would get a qualified person in to do the test, even brakes on the caravan, not a problem for me but I look at it this way, if I had a accident or an issue with my caravan insurance company and it turns out that I have recently serviced my brakes and not being a qualified caravan service engineer they might want to get out of paying,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Camel,

I'm glad you see it that way, There're are plenty that apparently do not. Sadly that's where " Common Sense" always fails which is why I always suggest using "Good Sense"

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Prof,
Good advice, I think there are plenty of forum members that contribute and give good expert knowledge on caravanning issues you being one of them, but is it not common sense that even for a gas test you would get a qualified person in to do the test, even brakes on the caravan, not a problem for me but I look at it this way, if I had a accident or an issue with my caravan insurance company and it turns out that I have recently serviced my brakes and not being a qualified caravan service engineer they might want to get out of paying,

this thread is the essence of what I was on about on the other thread.
is it also the mind set of the modern caravanner that almost everything you need doing has to be certified or you risk life and limb not to mention financial penalty for not using a professional for all but the menial tasks associated with the ownership and use of a caravan.

this however is not true. I have in the past challenged the notion that DIY is always bad and professional work is always good. it is not true there are good and bad everywhere assuming the man/woman doing the work will be better than anyone else just because they get paid for doing it is misguide.

yet time and again this is the assumption mostly generated when DIY raises it's head. it is also the point at which one starts to cultivate the fear campaign at doing anything for yourself with the "what if" scenarios.
there becomes a point where such discussions then become pointless as they then get bogged down in a la la world of what if's and but's. the truth is a good job is worth doing no matter who does it.
at one time everyone did it for themselves now very few. in time no one will bother. it is a money making racket for the service industry much the way it has in most walks of life. it is the modern way. pay through the nose for the privilege of doing something or don't bother.

while the Prof proudly mentions his one time qualifications as an engineer in the field I do not doubt his ability or the sincerity of his views. but they are not my own I have seen too many bodged up professional attempts to trust a bit of paper with a stamp on it.

 

[Dustydog]

if I had a accident or an issue with my caravan insurance company and it turns out that I have recently serviced my brakes and not being a qualified caravan service engineer they might want to get out of paying,

In regard to the Super Caravan Club Caravan New for Old Insurance I have this statement is partly true .Caravans over 5-years old must be serviced annually by a competent caravan workshop. This doesn't apply to new caravans . Nor does it apply where you have their standard indemnity policy.
However this has nothing to do with making your own DIY repairs. Obviously everyone must check their own policy B)
On every survey done by Haymarket for this magazine I have asked for more articles on DIY fixes.
Thank goodness Nigel Hutton has stepped in. However I wish to see a lot more including things like removing cookers and fridges :evil: :kiss: :cheer:

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

If you have read my opening thread you will see I'm not against DIY, provided the job is done properly, I am against DIY which cuts corners. for example where the post work test stage is not correctly carried out.

Sadly the same can be said of some "professionals" work, but that is less likely.

The problem that arises is some posters set out a question in ways that suggest they don't know what their doing, or perhaps suggest a course of action that could easily lead to problems. They need to be advised of the issues.

When they ask "where's the danger" then they will get chapter and verse!

 

[Parksy]

For any forumite wishing to read the background to the comments on this thread Click Here

On an open source internet forum there is no method which allows us to verify the competency of a person asking about caravan d-i-y jobs, and no method which could show the competency of the person providing advice in forum replies.
In this particular instance as a forum moderator I'm strictly impartial where equally valid but opposing viewpoints on the advisability of any individual tackling d-i-y work on their own caravan are aired on the forum.
Its for the individual concerned to decide for themselves if they are capable of undertaking such work, and they alone must accept the consequences if things go wrong, just as they would if they received d-i-y advice from an article in Practical Caravan Magazine.
If a forum member advises caution it's for the individual to decide for themselves if they wish to heed that advice, and if they wish to proceed using the information provided this is a matter for themselves to decide.
This forum simply provides a resource on which all kinds of caravan related information and advice can be exchanged, it is for individual forum users to decide for themselves what they want to do with this advice and information.

 

[DrZhivago]

if I had a accident or an issue with my caravan insurance company and it turns out that I have recently serviced my brakes and not being a qualified caravan service engineer they might want to get out of paying,

That would be a sad day, and I wonder what a court would make of it. I hope they would need to prove that you had done a bad job and not simply jump to the conclusion that you had. We should be innocent before being proved guilty. At least I could cite my engineering experience including in a car repair workshop. Compared with cars, the technicalities of a caravan are pretty simple IMHO.

In my lifetime I have never taken any of my cars (let alone a caravan) for professional repair or service, despite keeping them far longer than most peope do (my last one clocked up ~270,000 miles). If I did I would be inclined to take it to pieces immediately I got it back to check they had done the work properly. The one time I did take a car to a dealer for work was for a recall to change the brake disks. When I got it back I took the brakes apart and found they had strained the threads on several of the wheel nuts, no doubt with a pneumatic spanner. Bits of the threads dropped out when I removed the nuts.

A while ago a poster here asked for advice, was given it (correctly IMHO), but then others including myself continued the discussion going into more detail. Our interest had been kindled. The OP took umbage at this and complained of being lectured (my phrase, so don't search for it). I think he saw the forum as like a Help Desk, which it is not - it is a discussion forum. Forums like this are more equivalent to a group of guys by the bar in a pub when a friend joins them and asks for advice on, say, growing cabbages. Not only might they get some different answers, some of which could be plain wrong (which they must weigh up), but some of the group might well get into a separate conversation between themselves, which might have started off on cabbages but ends up being about kings.

 

[Hutch]

As a fully licenced Aircraft Engineer on 7 different Helicopters and 5 different engines, Radio, Electronics and Radar, Q. can I change my wheel on my caravan.
Answer. , I think so. But I have to have A Caravan qualified engineer to service my caravan.
Horses for courses.

 

[KeefySher]

You tow a horse box?

 

[Hutch]

Isnt there a different rules and regs for towing Horse boxes and animals. That you have to take.
Hutch.

 

[Damian]

The biggest problem with forum advice is that one does not know the capabilities of the questioner and whether or not they fully understand the importance of certain aspects of doing work on caravans.

Early vans were very basic and in most cases the work was straight forward and simple but times have changed and todays vans are quite complex beasts with very different requirements and the absolute need for specialist equipment to do a lot of the work, which for the average DIYer is a huge expense for very little use.

Wheel hub nuts for one, the old castellated nuts were a doddle to do and no special tools were required, One Shot nuts however need a torque wrench capable of 290Nm, and they are not cheap.

Gas burning appliances are another area where the days of just looking at a flame was enough (not that it told you anything other than the appliance was lit) now require a flue gas analyser to make sure it is not putting out dangerous levels of CO, and a good analyser is £1000, a lot of money for once a year use.

Heating systems and fridges now use electronic controls which need specialist equipment to check and fault locate, again expensive items for infrequent use.

Then the electrics and the equipment to test insulation and trip times.

Specialist tools also incur the cost of recalibration each year, another cost to add to the already big list.

As with many items today the makers have made items which for the average person it is not financially viable to do many of the jobs, much the same as modern cars.

I have seem some remarkable modifications done to exceptional standards by DIYers, and have also had to deal with many absolutely dangerous "modifications" which have put the owners life at risk as well as those anywhere
near him.

 

[Jaydug]

I've got to agree with colin-yorkshire's view on DIY. These days DIY is frowned upon. Now nothing must be done unless it's done by an 'expert'. Over the past 53 years I've owned four caravans which I've enjoyed looking after and maintaining myself. As a young married man I remember looking at the magazine stands and trying to decide which DIY magazine to buy that month. Should it be the Practical Householder, DoItYourself, Homemaker or Practical Woodworker? Usually Practical Motorist was the winner.
Still sitting on my bookshelves are several large volumes - Collins DIY Home Encyclopedia is amongst them. It gives a rundown on doing everything from installing a ring main to extending your central heating system. Also on the shelf is a first edition of our own John Wickersham's The Caravan Manua firstl published some 25 years ago. Chapter 11 in the edition deals with Installing Space Heaters and Water Heaters. The chapter goes into detail of fitting an early model of an S3002 heater and later in the chapter he begins "A confident DIYer should have no difficulty fitting a Carver Cascade........................... How times have changed!

 

[thosoneill]

I'm guilty of asking for advice mainly on gas operated items like space heaters / water heaters / fridges etc - as my current van is fitted in out with "carver" items these products are generally old and in need of service or repair - I am acutely aware of the hazards in using old / faulty gas appliances - consequently I would not attempt a repair on such items and would use a certified engineer for such work - modern caravans like automobiles are full of electronic circuitry and I wouldn't have a clue where to start - I am grateful to the forum for pointing me in the right direction for the enquiries that I have submitted

 

[colin-yorkshire]

thank you jaydug that is precisely my point. the leisure industry is big business and big business can only survive if it makes sure the service industry that goes with it is under their control.

to make a quote from Damian,s post "one shot nuts" need a torque wrench with a capacity of 290Nm most will not own one. [I do but that is besides the point] why use a nut that is used only once and needs a special wrench to fit it.
answer to stop anyone except the franchised workshop from doing any work on the brakes. simple. or is it.

the more they can make jobs more difficult or complex the harder it is to avoid using their workshops.and so perpetuates the money chain. whether this work is up to scratch is another question. however.
I remember returning to the dealer for two nuts after servicing the brakes on the bailey [the year after the 3 years free servicing had elapsed] to be told they hadn't got any and they were very expensive at £8 a nut.
just squeeze them in a vice and re use them. [we do]. fascinated by this answer as it was the very place I had been having my new van serviced at for the last 3 years. I went on [digging for information] what about the excessive torque needed to put them back on. yes he said it's quite high. about 200 ft/pounds you about 14 stone yeah stand on a one foot ring spanner will be tight enough. they don't come off.

Ok so needless to say my caravan never went near a dealer workshop ever again. so maybe this was a one off or a bad example but how do you know your dealer isn't the same. there is no way to tell is there.

 

[Hutch]

We had a similar situation on a Helicopter where Sikorsky said a nut was a one use only, until they could not supply any more , the fitment torque was about 250 ft pounds. The response was as long as the Drag torque was above 150 ft/lbs it was all right to fit the nut. It should be the same on the axle nuts on a caravan, but for £16 a year ( single axle) what the heck,

 

[DrZhivago]

Wheel hub nuts for one, the old castellated nuts were a doddle to do and no special tools were required, One Shot nuts however need a torque wrench capable of 290Nm, and they are not cheap.

I covered that in a post a year ago :
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/52809-al-ko-hub-grease-cap?start=10

That's a 3/4" socket drive kit with an 8ft long scaffold pole (unnecessarily long, but all I have), with an axle stand to take the reaction. ... Don't need a torque wrench in this situation because, knowing your own weight, you can work out where to stand on the pole to exert the required torque (allowing for the fact that the scaffold pole self weight is providing about half of it in this case).

 

[Gafferbill]

IMHO giving forum advice has to be targeted to the advice asked for.......especially if it is of a technical nature.
More often than not, on this forum, responders start grinding their own axes and beating there own drums as they do not have the specific knowledge to give a technical answer to the specific question.
A fairly new member asks a question about wiring a grey plug and socket and he is given chapter and verse about the pros and cons of DIY.

IMHO the Grey plug and socket topic is a classic example of why fairly new members often don't stay to become older members of the forum.

 

[Soozeeg]

Exactly, Gafferbill!

 

[Jaydug]

Wheel hub nuts for one, the old castellated nuts were a doddle to do and no special tools were required, One Shot nuts however need a torque wrench capable of 290Nm, and they are not cheap ..

In the late 1990's I delayed buying a younger caravan because it meant changing to a van with a Euro axle. I was reluctant to leave behind the soundly engineered wheel hubs and bearings that with correct maintenance would last for ever. Euro axle hubs are cheap. Only a bodger could think of squashing a nut to make it tighter. Even so, having had mine dismantled, since nothing can be done with the sealed bearing, I see no reason for removing them every year. But when I do, I have plenty of choice to make sure they are tightened correctly. :huh:

 

[Gafferbill]

.......all DIY'ers who need to borrow a torque wrench please form and orderly queue round at John's house :lol:

 

[DrZhivago]

IMHO giving forum advice has to be targeted to the advice asked for.......especially if it is of a technical nature. .......A fairly new member asks a question about wiring a grey plug and socket and he is given chapter and verse about the pros and cons of DIY.

As I said, this is a discussion forum, not a pure help desk. The answer to the question was given, and then an interesting discussion developed afterwards. It was more old hands like me and the Prof giving each other "chapter and verse" than anything against the OP. This is not untypical for internet discussion forums - I subscribe to several and most are more wide-ranging than this one

 

[colin-yorkshire]

IMHO giving forum advice has to be targeted to the advice asked for.......especially if it is of a technical nature.
More often than not, on this forum, responders start grinding their own axes and beating there own drums as they do not have the specific knowledge to give a technical answer to the specific question.
A fairly new member asks a question about wiring a grey plug and socket and he is given chapter and verse about the pros and cons of DIY.

IMHO the Grey plug and socket topic is a classic example of why fairly new members often don't stay to become older members of the forum.

yeah you have a point there Bill. but on the other hand if the answer to most questions is take it to the dealer who knows what he is doing. or seek professional help. they won't come back anyway as there is no point in asking anything else.
then the forum can concentrate on the important issues like nose weight damp in new caravans and what the weather was like last week end.

 

[PHOENIXFLIER]

..........or us newbies could always ask about towing mirrors. :woohoo:

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

..........or us newbies could always ask about towing mirrors. :woohoo:

You can't call yourself a 'newbie' anymore because under your avatar you are listed as an 'expert boarder'.