Going Green isn’t easy

[Buckman]

In the 1980s I was involved with a Canadian advocate of Hydrogen, Dr Geoff Ballard, who set up Ballard Power Systems and his prime interest was in using hydrogen for transport power using fuel cells. Alternatively my main interest was the safe storage of hydrogen. I recall attending a demonstration where an incendiary bullet was fired in to a hydrogen storage vessel designed for a bus application. All we got was a brief puff of flame. Same when another round was shot into the container. This was because the hydrogen was stored in a metal hydride. Our application of interest was hydrogen generated at pressures up to 3000psi required to be stored prior to disposal, in parallel carbon dioxide had to be captured for disposal, whilst nitrogen partial pressure had to be maintained. To add further complexity carbon monoxide and freons had to be managed too. We certainly did not underestimate the potential of hydrogen to spoil your day.

They say you can throw a lit match into a petrol tank and it will go out due to no oxygen. The trick is getting the lit match into the tank without oxygen being in the vicinity. I am not willing to test the theory. LOL! 🤣

 

[ProfJohnL]

There are massive complications in attempting to use hydrogen for motive power and for distributed heating systems.

Presently there is no method by which hydrogen can be produced economically in the quantities that would be needed to cover all transport and heating needs in addition to the the present uses for hydrogen.

Even large scale electrolysis using green energy would mean expanding the numbers of solar and wind farms by a large factor. This is of course not impossible but there is no escaping the fact it uses more energy to produce hydrogen than can be extracted from the hydrogen. H2 may be the preferred fuel source in some places where other sources have their own difficulties but it will not be the majority energy source across the world, until there is a vastly cheaper and more efficient way to produce usable hydrogen.

There are other significant issues with the storage and distribution of H2. Hydrogen is the smallest and simplest atom we have discovered which is why it at number 1 in the periodic table. Hydrogen's molecule is 1/16 the size of a natural gas molecule, an as such it can squeeze though much smaller gaps than NG, making the containment of H2 a far more difficult process. It is estimated even the best containment is likely to lose 2% and the more typical commercial equipment often loses 10 to 20%.

Now consider the proposal to use the present natural gas distribution system in the UK to distribute commercial Hydrogen gas! The present NG system is estimated to lose up to 10% of the gas through put. If hydrogen were the gas the losses be massive, not to mention the safety implications. The gas pipe network would all need to be massively upgraded.

H2 Research and development is being carried out, but it is nowhere near a point where large scale H2 production and distribution could meet any significant portion of the UK or the worlds transport or space heating energy needs.

 

[Buckman]

There are massive complications in attempting to use hydrogen for motive power and for distributed heating systems.

Presently there is no method by which hydrogen can be produced economically in the quantities that would be needed to cover all transport and heating needs in addition to the the present uses for hydrogen.

Even large scale electrolysis using green energy would mean expanding the numbers of solar and wind farms by a large factor. This is of course not impossible but there is no escaping the fact it uses more energy to produce hydrogen than can be extracted from the hydrogen. H2 may be the preferred fuel source in some places where other sources have their own difficulties but it will not be the majority energy source across the world, until there is a vastly cheaper and more efficient way to produce usable hydrogen.

There are other significant issues with the storage and distribution of H2. Hydrogen is the smallest and simplest atom we have discovered which is why it at number 1 in the periodic table. Hydrogen's molecule is 1/16 the size of a natural gas molecule, an as such it can squeeze though much smaller gaps than NG, making the containment of H2 a far more difficult process. It is estimated even the best containment is likely to lose 2% and the more typical commercial equipment often loses 10 to 20%.

Now consider the proposal to use the present natural gas distribution system in the UK to distribute commercial Hydrogen gas! The present NG system is estimated to lose up to 10% of the gas through put. If hydrogen were the gas the losses be massive, not to mention the safety implications. The gas pipe network would all need to be massively upgraded.

H2 Research and development is being carried out, but it is nowhere near a point where large scale H2 production and distribution could meet any significant portion of the UK or the worlds transport or space heating energy needs.

The are huge pockets of natural hydrogen in the earth;s crust so no need to produce it. It just needs to be extracted. As mentioned earlier, we as the consumer are paying wind farms millions to shut down when excess energy is being produced.

I am wondering why some scientist cannot come up with a way so that excess wasted energy cannot be used for the electrolysis of hydrogen. It does not have to be on a massive scale requiring more wind farms etc. but maybe a way of storing energy when there is no wind or solar?

 

[otherclive]

The are huge pockets of natural hydrogen in the earth;s crust so no need to produce it. It just needs to be extracted. As mentioned earlier, we as the consumer are paying wind farms millions to shut down when excess energy is being produced.

I am wondering why some scientist cannot come up with a way so that excess wasted energy cannot be used for the electrolysis of hydrogen. It does not have to be on a massive scale requiring more wind farms etc. but maybe a way of storing energy when there is no wind or solar?

Have a read about The Orkney Hydrogen Initiative, it’s doing exactly what you propose. Nothing new, the technology is available but the economics and usage profiles need to match b

 

[GUMPY]

It will be cheaper and more efficient to put in transmission lines so the excess power from wind turbines can be shifted to where it's needed than it will be to develop plants to process Hydrogen. That's without starting on storage and transmission of hydrogen.

 

[otherclive]

It will be cheaper and more efficient to put in transmission lines so the excess power from wind turbines can be shifted to where it's needed than it will be to develop plants to process Hydrogen. That's without starting on storage and transmission of hydrogen.

I think most of us do realise the limitations of hydrogen as a replacement for natural gas. I wish I’d not mentioned it as my first (TIC) option now that my options to upgrade our existing vented gas system are seemingly so limited.

 

[GUMPY]

I'm changing tack with my new gas boiler and running it with a variable flow temperature controlled by the outside temperature. I set the required house temperature on the boiler and use the old thermostat as a maximum backstop.
This should result in the boiler running at lower power rather than flat out and remove the peaks and troughs* that you get with a high flow temperature stat system.
At present the flow temp is 38degC so we are down at heat pump temperatures but with oversized rads in the living area it's not a problem.


* All be it they were only about 1degC as the rads continued to heat the house after the stat had switched off.

 

[otherclive]

I'm changing tack with my new gas boiler and running it with a variable flow temperature controlled by the outside temperature. I set the required house temperature on the boiler and use the old thermostat as a maximum backstop.
This should result in the boiler running at lower power rather than flat out and remove the peaks and troughs* that you get with a high flow temperature stat system.
At present the flow temp is 38degC so we are down at heat pump temperatures but with oversized rads in the living area it's not a problem.


* All be it they were only about 1degC as the rads continued to heat the house after the stat had switched off.

I thought that weather compensation is featuring in many new boilers and some will even adjust based on internet weather data. Looks a beneficial feature.

 

[GUMPY]

I thought that weather compensation is featuring in many new boilers and some will even adjust based on internet weather data. Looks a beneficial feature.

I'm trying weather compensation as it means I don't need a new control system just a sensor outside on a north wall.
Open Therm requires a new control system, more expense.
Even before this because of Thermal Gain (south facing rear elevation) the heating seems to spend more time off than on.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The are huge pockets of natural hydrogen in the earth;s crust so no need to produce it. It just needs to be extracted. As mentioned earlier, we as the consumer are paying wind farms millions to shut down when excess energy is being produced...

Hydrogen has long been known as a cleaner fuel. If the hydrogen in the earth's crust was accessible, it might have been exploited long ago, rather than the oil. But the hydrogen is nowhere nearly as accessible. You also have to factor in the issues with extraction, containment and distribution, all of which I explained in #102. You can bet the sources will be commercially exploited and it would not be as cheap as oil.

Ultimately the hydrogen reserves have not been fully quantified, and as with oil they will be finite, and the human races hunger for energy would depleate them again like oil faster than they are created.

Why rely on an energy source that is finite, expensive to obtain, and accessed through idelogical greedy states
when there is low cost energy widely available and not controlled by politically motivated states or companies.

If you were to view the video interview I suggested you should understand why a diversity of power generation is required to protect the supply and that means some forms of generation have to be sacrificed at some times.