Going Green isn’t easy

[Buckman]

Crikey, we hardly ever use our (condensing) tumble drier other than to "fluff" the towels up (20 minutes on cold)
Washing gets put out onto the "whirly-gig" in the garden to dry. If its raining the washing doesnt get done. On the odd occasion, if the weather turns inclement it gets strung up under the gazebo. There are just the two of us in the house.

You live in Weymouth in the south of the country so obviously have better weather than us in Midlands and to the north?

 

[otherclive]

Looking at Bosch web site there are only heat pump models . No old fashioned ones? Is this correct?

Yes I had been browsing online sales sites so the vented or condensing models are allowed to be sold after the cut off date if they had been manufactured anbd until stock runs out. Apologies.

 

[Sam Vimes]

I think going green in terms of benefit to the environment is relatively easy. The problem that many of us find is that it has a negative impact on your wallet and the personal benefits are not that apparent, if there are any at all.

In respect of Tumble Dryers, we don't have one. As I've mentioned previously the MVHR does a good job of drying clothes on the airer over night. When we light a fire we'll take the airer and put it in front of it before going to bed.

We've found that the few times we've used a Tumble Dryer in the past that they're not that good on the materials. Towels always seem to come out like sand paper - and all the 'lint' you collect must be wearing the materials prematurely.

Can't beat natural drying. Now if I could convince Mrs V to take the washing to the adjacent burn and slap them over a rock, we could get rid of the washing machine. 🙂

 

[Buckman]

I think going green in terms of benefit to the environment is relatively easy. The problem that many of us find is that it has a negative impact on your wallet and the personal benefits are not that apparent, if there are any at all.

In respect of Tumble Dryers, we don't have one. As I've mentioned previously the MVHR does a good job of drying clothes on the airer over night. When we light a fire we'll take the airer and put it in front of it before going to bed.

We've found that the few times we've used a Tumble Dryer in the past that they're not that good on the materials. Towels always seem to come out like sand paper - and all the 'lint' you collect must be wearing the materials prematurely.

Can't beat natural drying. Now if I could convince Mrs V to take the washing to the adjacent burn and slap them over a rock, we could get rid of the washing machine. 🙂

Heat pump dryers are a lot more expensive to buy than conventional vented or condenser dryers therefore any savings on electric savings over a 10 year period are negligible or non-existent. As said heat pumps are the biggest con inflicted on mankind.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A bit of Fred Drift.

Our 30 month old top combined Bosch Oven and microwave ignited last September filling the kitchen with a thick acrid smoke.

An engineer from the extended warranty company attended twice. He fitted a new transformer, a new magnetron. Still no good. He ordered a new pcb . After waiting two weeks we found out he’d gone on holiday for six weeks.

Another engineer was appointed. Another two week wait. The guy phoned us on the morning of his scheduled visit. He wouldn’t attend as he is not microwave trained!

After an hour on the phone to a call centre in the Philippines I was told another engineer would attend. By now we discovered the real problem was the microwave guide plate which had melted. Told them this but they said the engineer has to order the parts and it must be the pcb.
We costed the parts so far and the engineers call and already the cost was over £500!

Finally got hold of someone with brains in the NE near Darlington. She sorted it out and agreed it was a waste of money trying to fix it. We now have a new unit.

BUT, our oem was released by Bosch in February 2023. A flat bed microwave combined top oven.
They no longer make them! All that is available are conventional models with turntables.
Clearly Bosch must have experienced a number of issues with this model. I’m surprised they didn’t do a Product Recall. Clearly the design was /is fundamentally flawed.

Our new Bosch matches the lower main oven and works perfectly👍

With the best will in the world even companies that manufacture to the highest standards can occasionally have a faulty product get through their quality net. I cannot believe a reputable company like Bosch (and knowing some of their in house standards) would knowingly allow a product to be released for sale that is a "Fundamentally flawed" as Dusty puts it. What is a fundamental mistake is to condemn a brand or product on a sample of one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

Can't beat natural drying. Now if I could convince Mrs V to take the washing to the adjacent burn and slap them over a rock, we could get rid of the washing machine. 🙂

Sell it to her as way of getting all the exercise she needs cheaper than going to the gym😉

 

[ProfJohnL]

As has happened with EV's, heat pumps and heat pump drier's, it a new technology that the general public are not familiar with, and to get the best out of it you have to approach its use differently. Often if you try to use these technologies in exactly the same way as the old equipment, it won't produce the performance or efficiency gains they are capable of.

 

[otherclive]

I think going green in terms of benefit to the environment is relatively easy. The problem that many of us find is that it has a negative impact on your wallet and the personal benefits are not that apparent, if there are any at all.

In respect of Tumble Dryers, we don't have one. As I've mentioned previously the MVHR does a good job of drying clothes on the airer over night. When we light a fire we'll take the airer and put it in front of it before going to bed.

We've found that the few times we've used a Tumble Dryer in the past that they're not that good on the materials. Towels always seem to come out like sand paper - and all the 'lint' you collect must be wearing the materials prematurely.

Can't beat natural drying. Now if I could convince Mrs V to take the washing to the adjacent burn and slap them over a rock, we could get rid of the washing machine. 🙂

If 1 billion+ in India are prepared to wash beautiful saris in the river I can’t see Mrs Vs objections.

 

[Dustydog]

With the best will in the world even companies that manufacture to the highest standards can occasionally have a faulty product get through their quality net. I cannot believe a reputable company like Bosch (and knowing some of their in house standards) would knowingly allow a product to be released for sale that is a "Fundamentally flawed" as Dusty puts it. What is a fundamental mistake is to condemn a brand or product on a sample of one.

I only refer to the “flat bed “ style unit.

Talking with two external engineers it is sadly a fact this model has proved problematic. Numerous call outs. World wide the model has been withdrawn.

So not my single condemnation but an affirmation by the maker themselves.

Unlike a conventional microwave which has a small approx 2” square microwave guide plate the new design uses an 8 “ plate and a separate “ fan stirrer” which redirects the microwaves around from the top doing the job of the turntable.

As far as Bosch goes then I can put my money where my mouth is and say we currently have four Bosch appliances all performing superbly.
The latest dish washer is the best we have had so far.

A lot of Companies have pushed the boundaries of technology and made mistakes. Eg the Ford Powermax gearbox and the various “wet” timing belts.
Even the best come unstuck

 

[Gafferbill]

.....and don't fall for this practice of tumble dryer manufacturers fitting non reversing drums.
(I did as it never occurred to me any manufacturer would be so stupid).
Guess what .....they roll the clothes into a ball giving very uneven drying.
Repeated untangling is required 🤔👎

 

[Buckman]

As has happened with EV's, heat pumps and heat pump drier's, it a new technology that the general public are not familiar with, and to get the best out of it you have to approach its use differently. Often if you try to use these technologies in exactly the same way as the old equipment, it won't produce the performance or efficiency gains they are capable of.

I have always been under the impression that new technology was to be time saving and not time consuming? We have had heat pumps since 2012 and although they do work and are cheaper to operate, they are not very efficient when it comes to heating as it takes a long time to heat up a home where gas would do it in about 20-30 minutes. Even worse when it comes to drying laundry. It is like taking several steps backwards!

 

[RogerL]

I have always been under the impression that new technology was to be time saving and not time consuming? We have had heat pumps since 2012 and although they do work and are cheaper to operate, they are not very efficient when it comes to heating as it takes a long time to heat up a home where gas would do it in about 20-30 minutes. Even worse when it comes to drying laundry. It is like taking several steps backwards!

What's time consuming in this case? You don't have to stand around waiting for the tumble dryer to finish.

 

[Buckman]

What's time consuming in this case? You don't have to stand around waiting for the tumble dryer to finish.

We will not go out until it has finished and anyway why should it take twice as long as a vented to condenser run it? Also please read my earlier post regarding OH and laundry. Not sure what you don't understand about that post?

 

[otherclive]

We will not go out until it has finished and anyway why should it take twice as long as a vented to condenser run it? Also please read my earlier post regarding OH and laundry. Not sure what you don't understand about that post?

It takes more time as it runs at a lower temperature than a standard electric vented unit. But over a cycle it uses much less electricity. Cannot see what is difficult to understand about the heat pump dryers operating cycle. Both WHICH and The Telegraph carried out comprehensive tests of various models on the market and both conclude that they did take longer than the electric vented models, but saved energy. If they have been out for 13 years why did you not pick up this difference in operating cycles. Whilst we dont go out if the washing machine is on, or the tumble dryer, I would have no qualms about going out if a heat pump model were running. After all the fridge and freezer run without supervision.

 

[Buckman]

It takes more time as it runs at a lower temperature than a standard electric vented unit. But over a cycle it uses much less electricity. Cannot see what is difficult to understand about the heat pump dryers operating cycle. Both WHICH and The Telegraph carried out comprehensive tests of various models on the market and both conclude that they did take longer than the electric vented models, but saved energy. If they have been out for 13 years why did you not pick up this difference in operating cycles. Whilst we dont go out if the washing machine is on, or the tumble dryer, I would have no qualms about going out if a heat pump model were running. After all the fridge and freezer run without supervision.

Not sure what you are blathering about as you seem to be repeating everything already mentioned? I am pleased to know that you are happy with your heat pump and your heat pump tumble dryer.🤔

 

[GUMPY]

I'm running low Delta T on my gas heating system, all of the disadvantages of a heat pump with none of the advantages 🫣

 

[otherclive]

Not sure what you are blathering about as you seem to be repeating everything already mentioned? I am pleased to know that you are happy with your heat pump and your heat pump tumble dryer.🤔

We dont have any heat pumps in the house apart from from fridge/frezeer, but so will 99% of UK houses have them too.

 

[Oscarmax]

We are they same we will not leave appliance like washing machine and especially tumble dryers without supervision, as we are on Octopus Go we could tumble dry off peak between 00.30 - 05.30 @ 8.5 pence kWh but definitely chose not too, the son in law is a fireman.

 

[Sam Vimes]

As has happened with EV's, heat pumps and heat pump drier's, it a new technology that the general public are not familiar with, and to get the best out of it you have to approach its use differently. Often if you try to use these technologies in exactly the same way as the old equipment, it won't produce the performance or efficiency gains they are capable of.

This is very true but somehow gets overlooked in the marketing hype.

Really technology should be working for us but quite often it seems the other way around.

 

[JTQ]

Some part of the criticism here of heat pumps is they don't replicate the operating mode of gas etc, but then they are not intended to.
IMO it needs a change in how we expect to use these systems; clearly if the venders don't make that requirement known that the client needs to adapt to the heat pump's characteristics clear, that is remiss.

For example with a heat pump space heating system it is the designer's intention it runs to keep home warm, not just heat the home on demand.

I expect the heat pump clothes driers are intended to plod away drying the clothes not blast then with 3 kW of heating for in comparison a short period of time.
Clearly for those unwilling to give them time to do that task, can't be but disappointed as its not how they are conceived to operate.

 

[Dustydog]

Clearly for those unwilling to give them time to do that task, can't be but disappointed as its not how they are conceived to operate.

Almost like reinventing the wheel.
Why should we have to go backwards and make life more difficult?

 

[ProfJohnL]

..... they are not very efficient when it comes to heating as it takes a long time to heat up a home where gas would do it in about 20-30 minutes. Even worse when it comes to drying laundry. It is like taking several steps backwards!

This a claim you have made previously, and you have drawn improper conclusions about why your heating is inadequate and blamed the system as not being "efficient" when that is probably not the case.

There is a growing body of irrefutable evidence that Heat Pumps can work, and when set up correctly they are also very effective and do reduce operating costs.

If your heating system cannot effectively provide the heat you want there must be some reason why it's not providing you with what you expect:-

• The system designer may have misunderstood what you expected your system to do.
• The system designer may not have understood the environmental conditions of your location.
• The system designer may have got the calculations wrong.
• The system designer has not specified the correct components.
• Environmental conditions may have deteriorated since the system was specified
• If you set a budget cap for the project, it might have precluded the use of correctly sized system components.
• The contractor may have not followed the specific design correctly.
• The contractor may have not been able to obtain or fit the optimum components.
• The contractor may have incorrectly installed some parts of the system compromising the overall performance.
• Some parts of the systems may be defective. or have worn possibly through improper use.
• Perhaps you do not understand how to use the system for its best performance.

 

[JTQ]

Almost like reinventing the wheel.
Why should we have to go backwards and make life more difficult?

I don't see it remotely that we are going "backwards", its just different and not necessarily "making life more difficult".
What's difficult to leave a heat pump space heating system to work?
Agreed its a challenge initially to setting its operation up, particularly if most cost effectively exploiting the variable tariffs ; but surely thats what you paid your contractor to do if not technically savvy enough to do yourself.
That waiting longer for clothes to dry is not in itself "difficult", might be inconvenient, but that is the "price" that saving on electricity bills.
When I use our clothes line, it takes more time than using the tumble drier, and involves a lot more effort.

Whichever I use, along with our space heating we still go out. Its probably more a direct personal hazard to re-camp remotely in the lounge than be out of the house, out of harms way. It's the insurers that have the bulk of the financial problem, if the house goes up.

 

[otherclive]

Almost like reinventing the wheel.
Why should we have to go backwards and make life more difficult?

Most reviews comparing heat pump dryers compared to vented or condenser types seem to indicate 15-30 minutes per load increase in cycle time to dry a load. I wouldn’t see that as going backwards given the saving in electricity and gentler treatment of the fabrics. Given that there is no electric element I would be quite prepared leave it running whilst we were out. Plus we don’t run the laundry tasks like a production line, with items in the washing machine, tumble dryer running preparing items for ironing.

 

[Dustydog]

I don't see it remotely that we are going "backwards", its just different and not necessarily "making life more difficult".
What's difficult to leave a heat pump space heating system to work?
Agreed its a challenge initially to setting its operation up, particularly if most cost effectively exploiting the variable tariffs ; but surely thats what you paid your contractor to do if not technically savvy enough to do yourself.
That waiting longer for clothes to dry is not in itself "difficult", might be inconvenient, but that is the "price" that saving on electricity bills.
When I use our clothes line, it takes more time than using the tumble drier, and involves a lot more effort.

Whichever I use, along with our space heating we still go out. Its probably more a direct personal hazard to re-camp remotely in the lounge than be out of the house, out of harms way. It's the insurers that have the bulk of the financial problem, if the house goes up.

Years ago “turn key” operations were seen as cost effective. Eg starting a diesel locomotive compared to getting a steam locomotive up to operational level. That’s all😉