Going Green isn’t easy

[IanB1485]

Gas boilers may not be phased out , they are starting to introduce hydrogen into the gas line in certain locations and modern boilers can be programmed to burn hydrogen and it can be produced carbon neutral, thats my hope.

 

[Buckman]

This a claim you have made previously, and you have drawn improper conclusions about why your heating is inadequate and blamed the system as not being "efficient" when that is probably not the case.

There is a growing body of irrefutable evidence that Heat Pumps can work, and when set up correctly they are also very effective and do reduce operating costs.

If your heating system cannot effectively provide the heat you want there must be some reason why it's not providing you with what you expect:-

• The system designer may have misunderstood what you expected your system to do.
• The system designer may not have understood the environmental conditions of your location.
• The system designer may have got the calculations wrong.
• The system designer has not specified the correct components.
• Environmental conditions may have deteriorated since the system was specified
• If you set a budget cap for the project, it might have precluded the use of correctly sized system components.
• The contractor may have not followed the specific design correctly.
• The contractor may have not been able to obtain or fit the optimum components.
• The contractor may have incorrectly installed some parts of the system compromising the overall performance.
• Some parts of the systems may be defective. or have worn possibly through improper use.
• Perhaps you do not understand how to use the system for its best performance.

I am very surprised that you state there is "a growing body of irrefutable evidence that Heat Pumps can work" when clearly they do not even when they are set up to the correct parameters. A vented or condenser tumble dryer takes 90 minutes to properly dry clothes. A heat pump dryer takes double the amount of time so does it really use less electric?

If we had our heat pump set to 20C it would be running all day to keep the temperature at 20C and it would have to work harder on really cold days. On really cold days it resembles a block of ice and goes into defrost mode. When running in defrost modem the heating in the home shuts down same as when the hot water is being heated up. When the defrost has finished, the home is a lot cooler and again the machine has to work twice as hard to bring the temperature back up again.

How is that efficient as that applies to all heat pumps? In the meantime your electric bill is rocketing. We are looking at an electric bill that is going to be north of £300 for this month! Remember that we only have the temperature at 20C between 6-9am and 4-10pm. The rest of the time it is at 17C. In summer our electric bill averages at about £100 per month.

 

[Oscarmax]

Most reviews comparing heat pump dryers compared to vented or condenser types seem to indicate 15-30 minutes per load increase in cycle time to dry a load. I wouldn’t see that as going backwards given the saving in electricity and gentler treatment of the fabrics. Given that there is no electric element I would be quite prepared leave it running whilst we were out. Plus we don’t run the laundry tasks like a production line, with items in the washing machine, tumble dryer running preparing items for ironing.

You have just talked me around, plus we could use the heat pump dryer off peak.

 

[Oscarmax]

Gas boilers may not be phased out , they are starting to introduce hydrogen into the gas line in certain locations and modern boilers can be programmed to burn hydrogen and it can be produced carbon neutral, thats my hope.

Our must be one of them major works in our area.

 

[JTQ]

I am very surprised that you state there is "a growing body of irrefutable evidence that Heat Pumps can work" when clearly they do not even when they are set up to the correct parameters. A vented or condenser tumble dryer takes 90 minutes to properly dry clothes. A heat pump dryer takes double the amount of time so does it really use less electric?

If it uses less than half the power during the running period it uses less "energy" & that's what you are charged for on domestic tariffs. So that would be "less electricity".

If we had our heat pump set to 20C it would be running all day to keep the temperature at 20C and it would have to work harder on really cold days. On really cold days it resembles a block of ice and goes into defrost mode. When running in defrost modem the heating in the home shuts down same as when the hot water is being heated up. When the defrost has finished, the home is a lot cooler and again the machine has to work twice as hard to bring the temperature back up again.

This to an extent implies the unit is undersized for the application as it is forced to drop to a low evaporating temperature. There however has to be some drawback with air sourced heat pumps in environs that are simultaneously high humidity and near freezing, where to counter icing up unit size would grow significantly.

Secondly if the house temperature drops "a lot cooler" during the defrost period so quickly, then the house is poorly insulated, suggesting not a suitable candidate for heat pump technology. But, also one that would have required more gas than a more insulated home.

How is that efficient as that applies to all heat pumps? In the meantime your electric bill is rocketing. We are looking at an electric bill that is going to be north of £300 for this month! Remember that we only have the temperature at 20C between 6-9am and 4-10pm. The rest of the time it is at 17C. In summer our electric bill averages at about £100 per month.

Being "efficient" is not the same as being "effective".
The cost depends on how much we pay for energy we need to buy in.
If you were heating on gas, then presently we pay considerably less for daytime energy quantity than we do for electricity.
With a heat pump, it gathers a significant part of the energy needed to heat the home from outside, thus requiring buying less energy in, however its the more expensive per unit electrical.
With gas all the energy needed has to be purchased.

 

[otherclive]

There seem to be differences of opinion wrt the effectiveness of heat pumps. They are widely used in Scandinavia where they are replacing electric heating. In Germany 74% of new builds have heat pumps, although the take up in existing properties is around 4%. One significant reason being that the cost and disturbance to install an effective heat pump system in existing properties can be too high for owners to bear. If the heat pump system isn’t designed and installed correctly with regard to the characteristics of existing properties it will fail to work properly, or be very expensive to run. A majority of British properties are notoriously poorly insulated and that makes them ill suited to heat pumps. Ours is very well insulated (EPC at C) but the constraints on water supply to the house currently rule out either a heat pump, or an upgrade to an unvented gas boiler system. Our next door neighbour (85) went through this 2-3 years back and decided just to replace the boiler, whilst a younger family in the close who WFH are moving to a new build with heat pump, and they will have solar panels and batteries installed. They felt they had reached the end of the road as far as upgrading their home without disproportionate expense and dislocation, for no real gain in capital value.

Which European nations are winning the heat pump race?

Nordic countries are way ahead when it comes to installing energy efficient heat pump systems.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ProfJohnL]

We need to understand that "efficiency" of a system is not the same thing as its "effectiveness". It is entirely possible to have a system that is highly efficient in terms of its energy handling, but if it under sized for the task its effectiveness will be low.

An 1.5kW electric convector heater is 100% efficient at converting the electrical power it uses to heat. But it would not be effective at heating Wembley stadium , but it could be very effective in a caravan.

 

[Dustydog]

That’s spot on Clive and pretty well confirms everything for and against noted over the last 181 posts👍

Our house just isn’t designed for the Air heat pump. To make it work will cost an inordinate amount of money and energy to achieve success.
I find it inequitable that any HMG is trying to force people to buy AHP s by loading the cost of gas boilers and banning them in a few years time.
A time and a place perhaps😉

 

[Buckman]

We need to understand that "efficiency" of a system is not the same thing as its "effectiveness". It is entirely possible to have a system that is highly efficient in terms of its energy handling, but if it under sized for the task its effectiveness will be low.

An 1.5kW electric convector heater is 100% efficient at converting the electrical power it uses to heat. But it would not be effective at heating Wembley stadium , but it could be very effective in a caravan.

Thanks as I have been using the incorrect term and you are correct that "effectiveness" should have been used. All heat pumps work with in the parameters of their design therefore cannot be faulty in the eyes of the law or others.

 

[RogerL]

There seem to be differences of opinion wrt the effectiveness of heat pumps. They are widely used in Scandinavia where they are replacing electric heating. In Germany 74% of new builds have heat pumps, although the take up in existing properties is around 4%. One significant reason being that the cost and disturbance to install an effective heat pump system in existing properties can be too high for owners to bear. If the heat pump system isn’t designed and installed correctly with regard to the characteristics of existing properties it will fail to work properly, or be very expensive to run. A majority of British properties are notoriously poorly insulated and that makes them ill suited to heat pumps. Ours is very well insulated (EPC at C) but the constraints on water supply to the house currently rule out either a heat pump, or an upgrade to an unvented gas boiler system. Our next door neighbour (85) went through this 2-3 years back and decided just to replace the boiler, whilst a younger family in the close who WFH are moving to a new build with heat pump, and they will have solar panels and batteries installed. They felt they had reached the end of the road as far as upgrading their home without disproportionate expense and dislocation, for no real gain in capital value.

Which European nations are winning the heat pump race?

Nordic countries are way ahead when it comes to installing energy efficient heat pump systems.

www.bbc.co.uk

Many would face substantial upheaval to have a heat pump system installed - our house is almost 50 years old, insulated to the standard of the day and "improved" with cavity wall insulation, loft insulation and double glazing - but the radiators would need replacing to cope with the lower flow temperature of heat pump systems and the pipework would also need replacing as it's a mixture of copper microbore and steel small bore - in practice it won't happen until my wife and I pop our clogs and the house gets emptied.

I suspect most retired people are in a similar position - which is a big chunk of the housing market.

 

[otherclive]

That’s spot on Clive and pretty well confirms everything for and against noted over the last 181 posts👍

Our house just isn’t designed for the Air heat pump. To make it work will cost an inordinate amount of money and energy to achieve success.
I find it inequitable that any HMG is trying to force people to buy AHP s by loading the cost of gas boilers and banning them in a few years time.
A time and a place perhaps😉

Just plan to do as you would with a diesel tow car, buy a new boiler before any ban comes into place. But unlike a tow car you wouldn’t buy a pre owned boiler. But by then gas might be so astronomically expensive we might all be going to electric panel radiators which I had installed in our first home. Absolutely brilliant despite burning the toddlers a few times, but they soon learnt not to use the radiators for support. 😱

 

[Oscarmax]

Just plan to do as you would with a diesel tow car, buy a new boiler before any ban comes into place. But unlike a tow car you wouldn’t buy a pre owned boiler. But by then gas might be so astronomically expensive we might all be going to electric panel radiators which I had installed in our first home. Absolutely brilliant despite burning the toddlers a few times, but they soon learnt not to use the radiators for support. 😱

Or a an electric combi boiler

 

[Dustydog]

Or a an electric combi boiler

According to AI

• • Scenario 1 (Average usage):
    A 12kW boiler running for an average of 7.5 hours a day at a rate of 16.36p/kWh could cost approximately £5,374 annually.
    
    Not a cheap alternative to a similarly rated gas boiler😉. But let’s not start the old fossil fuel debate again 🙀

 

[JTQ]

I suspect most retired people are in a similar position - which is a big chunk of the housing market.

Well there is at least one more.
Our property is totally unsuited in respect to its inherent insulation, we also would have the same level of upheaval re radiators and distribution system.

We are fortunate enough to have the land area and an ideal orientation to go ground heat source, but in our mid eighties with significant health issues on hassle alone it simply is not tenable.

Cost wise, yes, its expensive to pour high levels of gas energy into the place. But that cost now and realistically into what is our possible future, paying for energy is going to be way cheaper than, the total for adapting our place into one that is heat pump viable, install it and then its own running cost.

Its not going to happen, despite a desire to help preserve the planet, that has to be tempered with its "hurt" to me and mine. Shame but simply can't cope with it.

 

[otherclive]

Or a an electric combi boiler

Nice thing about panel radiators even back in 1973 was they are 100% efficient, have thermostats on each radiator and the house had timer controlled zones, but no app. But we were not taking out a heating system. All we had was a lounge coal fire, twin burner Valor paraffin heater and Baby Burco for washing laundry. 😂






Now this place where we lived in Cumbria was as cold as sin in winter but it did have a helicopter landing spot at the rear.

 

[Dustydog]

Nice thing about panel radiators even back in 1973 was they are 100% efficient, have thermostats on each radiator and the house had timer controlled zones, but no app. But we were not taking out a heating system. All we had was a lounge coal fire, twin burner Valor paraffin heater and Baby Burco for washing laundry. 😂


View attachment 9923



Now this place where we lived in Cumbria was as cold as sin in winter but it did have a helicopter landing spot at the rear.


View attachment 9924

Six chimneys🙀

 

[Oscarmax]

According to AI

• • Scenario 1 (Average usage):
    A 12kW boiler running for an average of 7.5 hours a day at a rate of 16.36p/kWh could cost approximately £5,374 annually.
    
    Not a cheap alternative to a similarly rated gas boiler😉. But let’s not start the old fossil fuel debate again 🙀

I am a bit confused, your figure are based on 32,850 kWh per year, we only use a maximum of 8000 kWh per year.

8000 kWh @ 16.36p = £1308.80 per year as opposed to £800 per year for gas, less the gas standing charge £114.29 and gas boiler service £100 = £1094.51 the difference of £294.51 per year.

But as the Otherclive stated if they made gas astronomically expensive.

Based on current domestic energy prices the an electric combi boiler is approximately twice as expensive as a gas combi boiler to run less the standing and service charges.

 

[Buckman]

One thing that has not been brought up is wear and tear? AS vented tumble 90 minutes to dry laundry. A heat pump double time there fore parts are moving twice as much so surely wear and teat would be expected a lot earlier than a vented machine? Replacing or repairing a heat pump dryer could prove to be expensive.

DD had indicated that they have had a vented dryer for about 20 years and it is still going strong. Our old vented tumble dryer gets more use now than when we had it and it is still going strong.

I admit I am not sure about the life span of heat pumps for heating in comparison to a gas heating system or even storage heaters. Our heat pump needs to be serviced annually.

As it is over 15 years since we had a gas boiler which was almost brand new at the time, I cannot remember if it was serviced annually however more then likely as I am very wary of gas.. Our home has top rated insulation, but the temperature can drop from 20C down to 17C in less than 2 hours.

 

[otherclive]

One thing that has not been brought up is wear and tear? AS vented tumble 90 minutes to dry laundry. A heat pump double time there fore parts are moving twice as much so surely wear and teat would be expected a lot earlier than a vented machine? Replacing or repairing a heat pump dryer could prove to be expensive.

DD had indicated that they have had a vented dryer for about 20 years and it is still going strong. Our old vented tumble dryer gets more use now than when we had it and it is still going strong.

I admit I am not sure about the life span of heat pumps for heating in comparison to a gas heating system or even storage heaters. Our heat pump needs to be serviced annually.

As it is over 15 years since we had a gas boiler which was almost brand new at the time, I cannot remember if it was serviced annually however more then likely as I am very wary of gas.. Our home has top rated insulation, but the temperature can drop from 20C down to 17C in less than 2 hours.

Ours dropped by just under 3 degrees C over 12 hours last Wednesday until mid day Wednesday.

 

[ProfJohnL]

All heat pumps work with in the parameters of their design therefore cannot be faulty in the eyes of the law or others.

That is not correct. Firstly you cannot assume ALL heat pumps are working correctly, as with all human endeavours some may be faulty, and you cannot assume ALL will only be deployed within their nominal working environment. again the decision to use a particular heat pump is made by a human, and thus the incorrect model could have been specified or installed.

But where the units is functioning to its specification, and it has been selected and installed correctly taking into account the expected performance and operating characteristics they can be highly efficient and effective.

Using one installation where the owner is unhappy should not be used as a unilateral condemnation of the technology. The owner should take steps to have the entire installation reviewed to discover why its performance does not meet with the owners expectations. See # 172 for a list of some of the possible reasons why the system may not meet with expectations.

 

[Dustydog]

Just plan to do as you would with a diesel tow car, buy a new boiler before any ban comes into place. But unlike a tow car you wouldn’t buy a pre owned boiler. But by then gas might be so astronomically expensive we might all be going to electric panel radiators which I had installed in our first home. Absolutely brilliant despite burning the toddlers a few times, but they soon learnt not to use the radiators for support. 😱

Not if Donald Trump gets his way. He heavily castigated the UK leader for not utilising our North Sea gas and oil🙀

 

[otherclive]

Not if Donald Trump gets his way. He heavily castigated the UK leader for not utilising our North Sea gas and oil🙀

I’m sure that he will source some for us via his best buddy.

 

[Dustydog]

This a claim you have made previously, and you have drawn improper conclusions about why your heating is inadequate and blamed the system as not being "efficient" when that is probably not the case.

There is a growing body of irrefutable evidence that Heat Pumps can work, and when set up correctly they are also very effective and do reduce operating costs.

If your heating system cannot effectively provide the heat you want there must be some reason why it's not providing you with what you expect:-

• The system designer may have misunderstood what you expected your system to do.
• The system designer may not have understood the environmental conditions of your location.
• The system designer may have got the calculations wrong.
• The system designer has not specified the correct components.
• Environmental conditions may have deteriorated since the system was specified
• If you set a budget cap for the project, it might have precluded the use of correctly sized system components.
• The contractor may have not followed the specific design correctly.
• The contractor may have not been able to obtain or fit the optimum components.
• The contractor may have incorrectly installed some parts of the system compromising the overall performance.
• Some parts of the systems may be defective. or have worn possibly through improper use.
• Perhaps you do not understand how to use the system for its best performan

I’m sure that he will source some for us via his best buddy.

Ah. The shorter pipeline via Europe🤪

 

[Buckman]

That is not correct. Firstly you cannot assume ALL heat pumps are working correctly, as with all human endeavours some may be faulty, and you cannot assume ALL will only be deployed within their nominal working environment. again the decision to use a particular heat pump is made by a human, and thus the incorrect model could have been specified or installed.

But where the units is functioning to its specification, and it has been selected and installed correctly taking into account the expected performance and operating characteristics they can be highly efficient and effective.

Using one installation where the owner is unhappy should not be used as a unilateral condemnation of the technology. The owner should take steps to have the entire installation reviewed to discover why its performance does not meet with the owners expectations. See # 172 for a list of some of the possible reasons why the system may not meet with expectations.

Of course I should have known that once again you found the necessity to correct one of my posts. I think most people understood what i was trying to put across except you.