Going Green isn’t easy

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Mar 14, 2005
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God help you if you get a heat pump.
1) Lot more expensive to run than a gas heating system
2) A lot more costly to repair or replace in 10 years time
3) Dont believe the salesmans bullshit about COPs of 6+ ( they struggle to hit COPs 2 in the middle of winter. )
4) Try getting a quote for annual service compared to a gas service. ( will be 2 to 3 times dearer for the ashp )
It seems you may have decided your opinion about HP's and that is fine as everyone is entitled to make up their own mind, but if your opinion is based on the criteria you have listed, then sadly I have to disagree with those statements and the conclusions you seem to draw from them,

You complain that an HP is "Lot more expensive to run than a gas heating system" that depends on which tariffs are you comparing, and is that comparison over the same environmental conditions? All the published reports show that HP's can be more efficient (energy in to heat energy out) than gas or any other type of heating device.

As for replacement costs in the future, Firstly rather like the dire warnings of EV batteries failing in 5 or fewer years made by the pro fossil fuel lobby, It's too early to predict the failure rates of HP's. Granted that if the present day cost differences between HP's and other heating systems were maintained, then it's possible but not certain that HP's may continue to be more expensive, BUT even if that will be the case, the cost savings of using an HP over a gas or resistive electric heating will offset the present day price differentials, BUT again as HP's become more popular their relative costs will fall, and its highly likely the cost of gas boilers will rise as demand for them drops, so it's highly likely HP's will approach parity with gas boilers in the future.

(additional edit)
Incidentally your fridge and freezer use a heat pump, and they generally run continuously for years with minimal if any maintenance, clearly though, now I have told you that you will be getting rid of both those items of equipment., along with your car if it has air conditioning.


I do agree that a HP's COP of 6 or more is unlikely to be regularly achieved, and that in winter the COP is likely to be lower, but even if falls as low as 2 as you suggest, You seem to ignore the fact that means it is still 200% efficient! Even condensing gas boilers lose some of their high nineties efficiency in winter because the boiler is has to work harder but even the best gas boiler cannot achieve the 200% or more of a HP.

As HP's are very much in the minority at the moment, there are inevitably fewer approved service agents, but as time goes by the number of agents will increase. It is perhaps too early to predict what a realistic service will cost in the future, but the consumer market forces will cause the cost to effectively drop as the number of HP's increases. Will it ever be as low as present day gas boiler services? Probably not but the same market dynamics will probably apply, as more HP services are needed, that means more service providers will be looking for work, and that will naturally for competion and drive service costs dow, and if fewer Gas boiler services are needed it's more likely gas boiler services will cost proportionately more, so HP costs will tend to match G. Boiler costs in the future. I have to stress here the change over is likely to take many decades rather than just one.

Take a look at the many learned reports from well respected organisations that actually put numbers based on scientific studies about the practicalities and both environmental and financial advantages of of heat pumps. There will be some circumstances where a heat pump is not the best solution, but provided the HP can produce the required amount of heat energy a property needs it will almost certainly more energy efficient than any other form of heating. It may need a different approach in the way its used compared to a gas boiler, but that does not mean it does not work.
 
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Jun 9, 2023
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Interesting post. 👍
Lots of different options. 🤔
The following is just my own opinion although I’m on my 14th house since 1985, and apart from a new build I was in from 2002 a 2007, I’ve installed, replaced or upgraded every system in every house. I’m a DIY’r so gas work is always done by qualified gas engineers. . I’ve also had 7 BTL properties in the same period. Currently 3.
I’ve tried all sorts of traditional options, but never heat pump systems, which for me are a waste of money, currently. I do A LOT of research.
So my thoughts.
Electric systems either panel heaters or boilers. Far too expensive.
Heat pumps…ridiculous break even timescale.
So for me it’s GCH.
Combi boiler without a tank is my go to system, with a Hive or similar controller, for extra control.
Boilers? Had them all.
Despite the good reviews elsewhere , the worst one was a Worcester/Bosch one 🤔
Currently have a 23 yrs old Vokera 29HE in my house. 😮 I’ve been in house for 11 years, get it serviced every year by BG and apart from a PCB board and pump in year 2, covered by contract, it’s never missed a beat.
Still gets a pass on efficiency tests and as long as parts are available, I’m happy.
So to summarise, GHC sealed system for me.
Important to remember is that a salesman will do the BTU. calculations for your house. They will suggest the bare minimum output boiler based on that. Keeps the price down.
My advice. Go for the next boiler output size up and maybe 2 up from salesman recommendations.
Better a boiler easily coping than one that is working at max capacity all the time.
You can have a hotter non powered shower all the time.
Don't you hate turning shower pressure down to get it hot. That because your current boiler can’t cope.
Winter is here and so is mains water temp. 😮
 
Jun 16, 2020
5,812
2,737
17,935
Interesting post. 👍
Lots of different options. 🤔
The following is just my own opinion although I’m on my 14th house since 1985, and apart from a new build I was in from 2002 a 2007, I’ve installed, replaced or upgraded every system in every house. I’m a DIY’r so gas work is always done by qualified gas engineers. . I’ve also had 7 BTL properties in the same period. Currently 3.
I’ve tried all sorts of traditional options, but never heat pump systems, which for me are a waste of money, currently. I do A LOT of research.
So my thoughts.
Electric systems either panel heaters or boilers. Far too expensive.
Heat pumps…ridiculous break even timescale.
So for me it’s GCH.
Combi boiler without a tank is my go to system, with a Hive or similar controller, for extra control.
Boilers? Had them all.
Despite the good reviews elsewhere , the worst one was a Worcester/Bosch one 🤔
Currently have a 23 yrs old Vokera 29HE in my house. 😮 I’ve been in house for 11 years, get it serviced every year by BG and apart from a PCB board and pump in year 2, covered by contract, it’s never missed a beat.
Still gets a pass on efficiency tests and as long as parts are available, I’m happy.
So to summarise, GHC sealed system for me.
Important to remember is that a salesman will do the BTU. calculations for your house. They will suggest the bare minimum output boiler based on that. Keeps the price down.
My advice. Go for the next boiler output size up and maybe 2 up from salesman recommendations.
Better a boiler easily coping than one that is working at max capacity all the time.
You can have a hotter non powered shower all the time.
Don't you hate turning shower pressure down to get it hot. That because your current boiler can’t cope.
Winter is here and so is mains water temp. 😮
I do agree. However. I am also pleased that others, that is home owners, institutions, companies and government. Are testing and exploring alternatives in order to develop workable solutions.

As I have already indicated, I feel certain that the way forward is in building design and insulation. Eco houses do exist. And work very well. But at a cost. Not easy when the demand is for cheap starter homes.

Insulating and draught proofing existing housing stock is important. But very limited in what it can achieve.

John
 
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JTQ

May 7, 2005
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Insulating and draught proofing existing housing stock is important. But very limited in what it can achieve.

And that is a massive problem. In the UK I suspect most people live in a dated property that's poorly suited to significantly and cost effectively change.
We have what we have, selling and buying a new build simply moves it from my problem to another's, I doubt there will be a widespread rip down and rebuild of the UK's housing stock.
Whilst fully supporting a push towards going green the dictates and mandates have to take in the reality of where we are, or face failure.
 
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Jun 16, 2020
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And that is a massive problem. In the UK I suspect most people live in a dated property that's poorly suited to significantly and cost effectively change.
We have what we have, selling and buying a new build simply moves it from my problem to another's, I doubt there will be a widespread rip down and rebuild of the UK's housing stock.
Whilst fully supporting a push towards going green the dictates and mandates have to take in the reality of where we are, or face failure.
Absolutely. And to exacerbate the problem. Poorly trained people and businesses will be selling unsuitable solutions in insulation and heating solutions.

There has just been a report about the ‘government’ funding of insulation and heating payments made. They all come from our fuel bills. But distributed by unregulated businesses. The main driver being profit. Therefore, the effectiveness is very dubious.

John
 
Nov 11, 2009
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And that is a massive problem. In the UK I suspect most people live in a dated property that's poorly suited to significantly and cost effectively change.
We have what we have, selling and buying a new build simply moves it from my problem to another's, I doubt there will be a widespread rip down and rebuild of the UK's housing stock.
Whilst fully supporting a push towards going green the dictates and mandates have to take in the reality of where we are, or face failure.
That’s exactly our problem in a mid 1980s house. It’s very well insulated roof, walls, windows and all doors since 2019. Not expensive to heat using a gas vented system. EPC at C. But totally unsuited to heat pump, unvented boiler or combi boiler without significant expense and disruption. The whole development is similarly affected as are many others in the town. We can live with it by replacing the boiler when required, but what about those who come after us with large mortgages and families?
 
Dec 27, 2022
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Poorly trained people and businesses will be selling unsuitable solutions in insulation and heating solutions.
That goes for gas systems as well. I have been told many times it's not possible to run low flow temperature heating using a gas boiler.
I'm at present running weather comp and the flow temp as it's 13deg outside is 42deg, that is a deltaT of 22 or almost heat pump levels. I also run the system 24/7 rather than off at night which I was told was not good. From initial day to day observations it looks like my gas usage is going to be 20% lower. 😱
I do need to change 2 radiators for larger ones but both are in rooms we hardly use.
House is 1985 with reasonable insulation EPC is C it will be B when I get round to insulating the floors.
 
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