Green at what price?

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Mar 14, 2005
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There are a variety of costs involved with every human endeavour, so nothing is truly free of cost or impact on the environment.

The bean counters will no doubt be able to establish the whole financial cost of producing every Watt of electricity, and whilst it will be a very very complex process it would in theory be possible to work out exactly how much the electricity supplied to you costs but not where its comes from.

As a consumer who purchase's power from the grid, may choose a "green" supplier and you may have a pure green tariff, unfortunately what they can't do is supply you with power only generated from renewables or green sources, because all power generators pump their Watts into the national grid, in exactly the same way that non green suppliers do. There is no way of discriminating green from non green Watts of energy that comes through the wires.

There are some consumers who for ecological principles will choose "green suppliers" but the rest of use will almost certainly choose their suppliers for reasons of cost or convenience. However its often quite difficult to to make direct comparisons between suppliers as they offer so many differing tariffs, It is entirely possible that for some consumers the tariffs from a green supplier could work out more cost effective than non green offerings. The devils in the detail of the tariff.

I seriously doubt there are any " Green Suppliers " who are being deliberately deceitful, There are plenty of checks and balances that dictate how they need to operate, and defines them as being "green"

Its also very difficult to make direct comparisons regarding the capitol costs of installing different types of generation.

The vast majority of the UK's fossil fuel (Coal, gas and oil) generation plant is nigh on 50 or more years old, and probably there were fewer regulations they had to comply with when they were constructed. To make a fairer comparison you would need to get an estimate of how much it would cost to day to build such a power station. But its also more than just the material cost of station. when stations were constructed, they also need many changes to infrastructure of the immediate area simply to service the station with fuel, such as railways and roads, and pipe lines.

By comparison wind and solar farms obviously have the cost of the energy collector (Solar Cells or windmills) and barely need anything other than the land they sit on, There wont be need for railways of any major road infrastructure to enable the plant to operate.

It seems very unlikely that a wind or solar farm's total installation and running costs based on a per Watt produced output will be more expensive than a coal, gas or oil fired station.

The biggest winner is the environment with the overall reduction in damaging emissions over the plants whole life.
 
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May 7, 2012
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You do have to distinguish between the suppliers who profess to be green and those who actually are. The best suppliers do use only energy produced from renewable sources, while others buy in carbon credits in an attempt to look green. This is being looked at at the moment and might result in some suppliers losing their green status. You will find green suppliers down there with the cheapest price wise when we have a competitive market, so there is no reason not to use them.
The green energy companies buy in a lot of their energy from third parties who have the choice of selling to them or other suppliers. The seller companies can sell either to the greener companies or any other so can charge the same rate as for those power from other sources so everyone pays the same.
Having said that the proportion of renewable electricity in the total generated is not affected by your purchase in the short term. If the proportion is say 40%, then the proportion remains that and effectively all you end up with is the none green suppliers use a larger proportion of none green power.
As for gas that cannot be green and even the green companies offset with carbon credits.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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You do have to distinguish between the suppliers who profess to be green and those who actually are. The best suppliers do use only energy produced from renewable sources, while others buy in carbon credits in an attempt to look green.
I think you are getting a bit confused and it has been mentioned before but there is no such thing as a supplier that only supplies energy from a green source as that is at the moment impossible.
The distribution company is responsible for the electric that arrives at your meter. Included in the cost of the electric kw plus standing charge is the cost of the Meter Operator, the Data Collector and the Data Aggregator.
 

Ern

May 23, 2021
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I am happy to pay for the cost of energy production, and agree that we need to produce "green" energy. We know that energy companies have to invest and include investment cost in their accounts, just the same as all companies.
All companies have to pay their taxes and pay their way, providing a return for shareholders (my pension is just that).
I do not agree to paying any hidden levy, surcharge, call it what you like, extra charge to support the funding of good causes of any kind. We and the energy companies pay enough tax already. As individuals, we donate massive amounts through charities for good causes. Energy companies, telephone companies and goodness knows who else are being forced to pay these costs , and its wrong.
 

Sam Vimes

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Sep 7, 2020
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I think you are getting a bit confused and it has been mentioned before but there is no such thing as a supplier that only supplies energy from a green source as that is at the moment impossible.

It depends how you look at it. Scottish Power is a generator that by their own wording '...only generates renewable energy...from there own wind farms.' Of course what comes out of the socket is a mix but the from SP's point of view 'they' are only supplying green energy. What they will do when the wind doesn't blow is buy energy from somewhere else.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I am happy to pay for the cost of energy production, and agree that we need to produce "green" energy. We know that energy companies have to invest and include investment cost in their accounts, just the same as all companies.
All companies have to pay their taxes and pay their way, providing a return for shareholders (my pension is just that).
I do not agree to paying any hidden levy, surcharge, call it what you like, extra charge to support the funding of good causes of any kind. We and the energy companies pay enough tax already. As individuals, we donate massive amounts through charities for good causes. Energy companies, telephone companies and goodness knows who else are being forced to pay these costs , and its wrong.

When you refer to energy companies are you referring to distribution companies that reinvest in new infrastructure or suppliers who do not invest in energy infrastructure? Most suppliers are a poor investment, but investment in a distribution company is different and probably profitable.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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It depends how you look at it. Scottish Power is a generator that by their own wording '...only generates renewable energy...from there own wind farms.' Of course what comes out of the socket is a mix but the from SP's point of view 'they' are only supplying green energy. What they will do when the wind doesn't blow is buy energy from somewhere else.
Are you referring to Scottish Power the distribution company or Scottish Power the supplier as they are two totally different entities which is why I state that no supplier can offer green energy only as all suppliers purchase from a pool or another Big Six supplier and all energy comes off the national grid where green, coal, gas etc are all mixed.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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Cost to me is a bit irrelevant=we need to get off burning dinosaurs!!! For the sake of the planet-and looking objectively the maintenance costs of gas and coal powered stations are pretty immense too I suspect, nuclear imo being the highest costwise-both money and environmentally-as you can tell I am hugely against nuclear power!
 
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Sam Vimes

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As far as I'm aware Scottish Power is both a generator and a retailer. The distribution is handled by Scottish and Southern.

Scottish Power retail, of whom I'm a customer, claim to provide green energy from their own wind farms if you're on a green tariff. In the event the wind doesn't blow they claim to buy energy - presumably using the money from the green tariff - from other green sources.

They will also sell customers a mix of fuel sources if your not on a green tariff

Of course this all on paper because what comes out of the socket is a blend of all sources.

Look up the term 'Greenwashing'. e.g
https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/greenwashing
 
Jul 18, 2017
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As far as I'm aware Scottish Power is both a generator and a retailer. The distribution is handled by Scottish and Southern.

Scottish Power retail, of whom I'm a customer, claim to provide green energy from their own wind farms if you're on a green tariff. In the event the wind doesn't blow they claim to buy energy - presumably using the money from the green tariff - from other green sources.

They will also sell customers a mix of fuel sources if your not on a green tariff

Of course this all on paper because what comes out of the socket is a blend of all sources.

Look up the term 'Greenwashing'. e.g
https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/greenwashing
You are correct about Scottish Power being a generator and supplier, but like all other power generators the two are not supposed to be linked as that would be very uncompetitive.
I may be wrong, but I thought distribution was handled by the National grid and not the generating company? I admit that even though I worked in the electric industry for a number of years, it is an unnecessary and very complicated system and definitely not easy to understand.
 

Sam Vimes

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Its worth a bit more digging just out of interest but I think the National Grid has overall responsibility for the operation of the entire grid such as load balancing. The UK is then split up into Distribution Network Operators - in our case Scottish and Southern - who operate the sub stations and the bits of wire that feedour homes.

So if we get a power cut - which happens quite a lot - its Scottish and Southern Engineers who come out, often in foul weather to get us back on line - Storm Arwen to name one example.
 
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Nov 6, 2005
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You are correct about Scottish Power being a generator and supplier, but like all other power generators the two are not supposed to be linked as that would be very uncompetitive.
I may be wrong, but I thought distribution was handled by the National grid and not the generating company? I admit that even though I worked in the electric industry for a number of years, it is an unnecessary and very complicated system and definitely not easy to understand.
It's historically complicated - in Scotland both the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board (Scottish and Southern Energy) and South of Scotland Electricity Board (Scottish Power) retained their generation and distribution capability at privatisation in 1990 - unlike in England & Wales where the CEGB was responsible for generation and distribution before privatisation with the regional Electricity Boards merely handling the retail side - after privatisation, CEGB was split into 3 generating companies and the National Grid.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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OMG ! What a mine field. Does the hand fit the glove? The immense number of variables almost render this thread redundant. Take for example a snap shot of electricity production on the. 14th October 2021.

The UK. Data from the National Grid shows that at lunchtime on Monday 51% of electricity was generated using gas. Wind, solar and hydroelectric accounted for 25%, nuclear just under 12% and coal a little over 1%.14 Oct 2021

Similar examples are freely available . Note our high dependency on Gas.
My main concern has to be why last year a therm cost 50p, last week a therm was 470p!
Someone somewhere will tell me the full non green truth🤪🤪
 
Nov 11, 2009
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OMG ! What a mine field. Does the hand fit the glove? The immense number of variables almost render this thread redundant. Take for example a snap shot of electricity production on the. 14th October 2021.

The UK. Data from the National Grid shows that at lunchtime on Monday 51% of electricity was generated using gas. Wind, solar and hydroelectric accounted for 25%, nuclear just under 12% and coal a little over 1%.14 Oct 2021

Similar examples are freely available . Note our high dependency on Gas.
My main concern has to be why last year a therm cost 50p, last week a therm was 470p!
Someone somewhere will tell me the full non green truth🤪🤪
Supply and demand. Last year not much demand, this year increasing demand throughout the world. Also many countries decided not to top up their reserve storage capacity and forward purchases too. So any restrictions have a magnifying effect on prices. There’s also the political pressure being applied by Russia wrt the Nordstream2 licence and Ukraine. There’s no real shortage of gas as it met global demand pre pandemic.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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The UK. Data from the National Grid shows that at lunchtime on Monday 51% of electricity was generated using gas. Wind, solar and hydroelectric accounted for 25%, nuclear just under 12% and coal a little over 1%.14 Oct 2021
How was the reminder (11%) acquired?

Actually that's not relevant to the thread, and also the figures you do quote are no measure of how "green" the suppliers of "green power" are.

In reality I don't the figures, but I doubt that more than 25% of the demand was from customers who have selected a "green" supplier.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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How was the reminder (11%) acquired?

Actually that's not relevant to the thread, and also the figures you do quote are no measure of how "green" the suppliers of "green power" are.

In reality I don't the figures, but I doubt that more than 25% of the demand was from customers who have selected a "green" supplier.
I confess Prof I took it straight from the Nat Grid site. Agree the sums don’t add up!
But it is worth a look at their web where you can see day by day where our power is generated.
 

Ern

May 23, 2021
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OMG ! What a mine field. Does the hand fit the glove? The immense number of variables almost render this thread redundant. Take for example a snap shot of electricity production on the. 14th October 2021.

The UK. Data from the National Grid shows that at lunchtime on Monday 51% of electricity was generated using gas. Wind, solar and hydroelectric accounted for 25%, nuclear just under 12% and coal a little over 1%.14 Oct 2021

Similar examples are freely available . Note our high dependency on Gas.
My main concern has to be why last year a therm cost 50p, last week a therm was 470p!
Someone somewhere will tell me the full non green truth🤪🤪
According to the bill, I buy my gas by the cubic meter and my supplier charges for it as kWh.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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1 cubic meter gives around 10.3 kwhr although some conversions give 11.1 kwhr.

Due to the UK's mains gas supply regulations, consumers are billed by the kWhr equivalent of gas. However we don't have gas meters that can measure kWhr's they can only measure the volume of gas supplied, so the suppliers need to know what the calorific value of the gas they supply is to be able to convert the volume consumed to kWhrs.

Because the purity of the gas can vary from well to well, and also due to any processing factors the calorific value can vary. Consequently the suppliers have to regularly test the gas as it enters teh pipe line to measure its calorific value to be able to apply the correction factor to work out the energy supplied.

Generally the gas mains are grouped into regions and will only be supplied with gas with similar calorific values, so you should be consistently receiving the same purity of gas between billing dates.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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"once installed there is zero cost" really takes the prize for only giving half the story - the installation cost of renewable energy is immense and CANNOT be excluded from the figures.

Whether it's wind turbines, solar panels or hydro-power there's research, development, installation costs as well as end of life costs after a finite life in service - those costs all have to be taken into account.
I know I have been silent on this but that’s an awful misquote. I mentioned zero fuel cost, not zero running or maintenance cost. But the cost of maintenance and support for the majority of wind and solar installations is tiny compared to the running and maintenance cost of fossil fuel power, again, mainly because there is no fuel requirement. The running and maintenance cost for a gas field or a coal power station absolutely dwarfs that for renewables which can run for literally months without any intervention what so ever.

And just as all the pre and post generation costs have to be absorbed by renewable generation, so they do by non renewable generation.

Buckmans point that there are fuel costs when energy is needed even when there is no wind or sun, is basically making my point for me. Fossil energy is expensive. It costs money to develop install, RUN, and shut down when it’s not needed. Arguing that wind power is expensive because gas is expensive when there isn’t enough wind , is nonsense.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Tobes referred to zero fuel cost which is incorrect as maintenance needs to be done at a cost. Hydro electric is probably the most green efficient energy that can be used nationally in the UK. Solar power probably does not even feature as being cost effective.
I am not sure why there has been such a huge jump recently in energy prices in the UK when many other countries around the world seem to have hardly budged in electric costs for many years.
TBH I think we would like to see green energy supplied to our homes but not at a huge cost to the consumer just so that some government can say we are the greenies!
Solar power is THE most cost effective form of generation to date. https://www.irena.org/newsroom/pres...ewables-Undercut-Cheapest-Fossil-Fuel-on-Cost

The solar panels on my roof are neither a particularly efficient installation (split east west) nor as efficient as more modern panels, but have entirely paid for themselves since they were installed. I can absolutely assure you I haven’t paid anything for fuel, and maintenance over 10 years has been perhaps as much as £50 in window cleaner bills to have them washed every now and then.

Fuel cost for wind and Solar is zero. No money changes hands to make the wind blow and the sun shine. Maintenance costs at a different thing and not related to fuel costs for renewable
 
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Solar power is THE most cost effective form of generation to date. https://www.irena.org/newsroom/pres...ewables-Undercut-Cheapest-Fossil-Fuel-on-Cost

The solar panels on my roof are neither a particularly efficient installation (split east west) nor as efficient as more modern panels, but have entirely paid for themselves since they were installed. I can absolutely assure you I haven’t paid anything for fuel, and maintenance over 10 years has been perhaps as much as £50 in window cleaner bills to have them washed every now and then.

Fuel cost for wind and Solar is zero. No money changes hands to make the wind blow and the sun shine. Maintenance costs at a different thing and not related to fuel costs for renewable
Solar power for the grid is also very destructive to the environment. Have you been to a solar farm and looked under the panels? Very little vegetation to support wildlife. Also solar panel is very dependent on the sun shining to generate any meaningful power to the grid.
I dislike wind farms due to the effect that they have on the natural environment and they are an eyesore, but can live with them however I am totally against solar farms due to the environmental damage they cause to the locality.
 
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Solar power for the grid is also very destructive to the environment. Have you been to a solar farm and looked under the panels? Very little vegetation to support wildlife. Also solar panel is very dependent on the sun shining to generate any meaningful power to the grid.
I dislike wind farms due to the effect that they have on the natural environment and they are an eyesore, but can live with them however I am totally against solar farms due to the environmental damage they cause to the locality.
I live in an area that has a number of solar farms around us. The local impact under the panels can be varied depending on the height at which they are installed and the gap between the rows. It is entirely possible to graze sheep on the same land if carefully managed. Personally I barely notice them, but they are far less of an environmental impact than a coal or nuclear power station, or a strip mine, or an oil field.

As for neededing sunlight to operate - well yes - that’s kind of the point…

It also depends where you put them. Solar farms deployed in desert terrain, or on rooftops or on recovered industrial sites have either little or indeed a positive impact. Funding deployment of solar in locations where the sushine and desert are common - like North Africa - can also bring local economic benefits. But having a mix of power, and grid level storage, is important to ensure that supply is available when it’s cloudy or still.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I live in an area that has a number of solar farms around us. The local impact under the panels can be varied depending on the height at which they are installed and the gap between the rows. It is entirely possible to graze sheep on the same land if carefully managed. Personally I barely notice them, but they are far less of an environmental impact than a coal or nuclear power station, or a strip mine, or an oil field.

As for neededing sunlight to operate - well yes - that’s kind of the point…

It also depends where you put them. Solar farms deployed in desert terrain, or on rooftops or on recovered industrial sites have either little or indeed a positive impact. Funding deployment of solar in locations where the sushine and desert are common - like North Africa - can also bring local economic benefits. But having a mix of power, and grid level storage, is important to ensure that supply is available when it’s cloudy or still.

IMHO solar farms in the UK are a waste of time and money in addition to environmental damage they do plus the fact that crops cannot be grown under them when land in the UK is needed for other purposes. Grazing is also very sparse under the solar panels.
A local farmer wants to change to a solar farm and the environmental impact will be huge during the building stages due to large trucks trundling through small villages on basically farm roads. Also the solar farm is right next to an ancient woodland where wildlife is plentiful. Then there is also the issue of them probably digging up the roads to install cables and impacting at least 3 -4 small villages while doing this.
However I agree 100% with you regarding solar panels and sunshine in many other countries around the world and not just the desert where the sun shines for at least 9 months of the year. Also agree about solar panels on the rooftops of factories or office buildings. However to support the weight I would think that extensive modifications would be required to the roof.
 
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