Green at what price?

[Tobes]

IMHO solar farms in the UK are a waste of time and money in addition to environmental damage they do plus the fact that crops cannot be grown under them when land in the UK is needed for other purposes.

A waste of who’s time and money? If the return from a solar farm is better than that from growing crops, then it’s absolutely not a wast of time and money for the farmer / land owner.

Grazing is also very sparse under the solar panels.
A local farmer wants to change to a solar farm and the environmental impact will be huge during the building stages due to large trucks trundling through small villages on basically farm roads. Also the solar farm is right next to an ancient woodland where wildlife is plentiful.

Farm roads are used to large machinery. In our area, the predominant agriculture is cereal and Oil seed rape, both of which require combining and tractor trailers for harvest. In my experience, the temporary additional traffic for solar plant building is not much higher than at harvest time.

Then there is also the issue of them probably digging up the roads to install cables and impacting at least 3 -4 small villages while doing this.

That is of course locally dependent. Substation deployment and attachment to the grid is dependent on local DNO infrastructure, but has the side benefit improved reliability and the availability for the local DNO to support higher home loads for the likes of car chargers and air source heat pumps.

However I agree 100% with you regarding solar panels and sunshine in many other countries around the world and not just the desert where the sun shines for at least 9 months of the year. Also agree about solar panels on the rooftops of factories or office buildings. However to support the weight I would think that extensive modifications would be required to the roof.

Certainly some roofs need modification, but all new builds (residential and commercial) should have solar roofing as mandatory during construction.
My town has a local planing request for some huge warehouses for a number of companies including DHL going into what is currently green belt grazing and pasture. I don’t want to see the loss of that green space to buildings and would prefer it to be become a solar farm. However, if the building is inevitable, it should be constructed with solar roofing as a minimum to reduce it’s power cost and perhaps become a net contributor. Solar power in the UK is 100% sensible in that type of situation.

 

[Buckman]

A waste of who’s time and money? If the return from a solar farm is better than that from growing crops, then it’s absolutely not a wast of time and money for the farmer / land owner.

IMHO it is called greed due to massive subsidies and not having to work the farm any longer. Most definitely a waste of time and money! Hopefully planning will reject the application for the solar farm near us. I am glad that I do care about the environment in my own way, but still will not dump my highly polluting diesel Jeep 3 litre for an EV that cannot tow our caravan for more than 100 miles.

 

[Ern]

IMHO solar farms in the UK are a waste of time and money in addition to environmental damage they do plus the fact that crops cannot be grown under them when land in the UK is needed for other purposes. Grazing is also very sparse under the solar panels.
A local farmer wants to change to a solar farm and the environmental impact will be huge during the building stages due to large trucks trundling through small villages on basically farm roads. Also the solar farm is right next to an ancient woodland where wildlife is plentiful. Then there is also the issue of them probably digging up the roads to install cables and impacting at least 3 -4 small villages while doing this.
However, I agree 100% with you regarding solar panels and sunshine in many other countries around the world and not just the desert where the sun shines for at least 9 months of the year. Also agree about solar panels on the rooftops of factories or office buildings. However to support the weight I would think that extensive modifications would be required to the roof.

A couple of solar farms have been built near our home. There was a regimental style operation to install them. The first phase was to lay a portable roadway across the field, which distances the site from the road. Then a temporary storage surface on the field next to the road with Portakabins and a circular roadway. That took about 2 weeks. Then the materials started arriving, and the lorries were in/out with no fuss or mess on the road at all. Installation of the panels took 4 or 5 weeks. Clearing the access road and storage field took about 1 week. It was all done and dusted, toot sweet. The land was previously sheep grazing. The solar panels can only be seen from one short bit of country road on which we travel daily, but trees have been planted and will soon obscure it completely. We have thousands of acres of farm land and unused land around us, and the relatively small areas of solar farms is not an issue. Our LA has been strict on planning and insisted on various measures to make it acceptable.

 

[otherclive]

Wiltshire has a good number of solar farms, and yes there were some objections mainly from locals on grounds of increased traffic and loss of land. But the land was generally lower grade grazing land and from those farms that I’ve passed the ground under and around the panels has sheep grazing. Which makes sense in that it cuts down on the need for maintenance by the land owner. A long term benefit of solar and wind farms is the ease in which the land and offshore facilities can be returned to back nature when fusion comes along.🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼

 

[Tobes]

IMHO it is called greed due to massive subsidies and not having to work the farm any longer. Most definitely a waste of time and money! Hopefully planning will reject the application for the solar farm near us. I am glad that I do care about the environment in my own way, but still will not dump my highly polluting diesel Jeep 3 litre for an EV that cannot tow our caravan for more than 100 miles.

Hmm. Massive subsidies? I am not sure that is true, but would love to know the source if it is. I would not call it greed, but leveraging an asset (land) to improve one’s own quality of life (generating an income for less risk and effort). What was the land used for before? Grazing or arable? I definitely care about the local environment, and whist I am not keen on the loss of productive land to either solar or building, if a solar farm is going onto unproductive land and reducing the reliance fossil fuels (particularly gas) so reducing the cost of energy and reducing carbon footprint- that’s a good thing. Remember, solar energy is cheap.

 

[ProfJohnL]

This is NOT a points scoring exercise it is a considered response to a factually incorrect comment made by a contributor.

The construction of a solar farm require, far less heavy engineering and construction and will have a much smaller environmental and social impact on the local community than building a generation station. There is less really heavy gear needed, and far less imported materials such a cement and and other aggregates and mechanical equipment .

Whilst it is easier to set out a solar farm on flat ground, they can be set out on ground that is not suitable for farming, or other industrial construction such as on top of buildings like warehousing or even domestic houses - using no additional ground space.

The operation of a solar farm to generate power produces ZERO emissions where as the operation of any generator that burns fuel produces pollution such as greenhouse gasses, heat and noise. There is a continual cost to the supply of fuel to the generator, and source and supply of that fuel also has its impact on the environment. Solar has minimal maintenance, where as burned fuel generation need regular far more expensive and extensive maintenance, which raises its own issues of pollution for the deposal of waste materials such as lubricants, filters, and any residues from the process.

Dedicated land used for a well designed solar farm can be used for grazing. The storage yards of a power station which can be quite extensive are used marshalling fuel stocks, cooling systems and other materials for the maintenance of the station excluding any sort of alternative use.

There is a case for solar in the UK. Of course its not going to be as effective compared to locations that have more hours of sunshine, but here's a surprise, PV panels can still produce some power (all be it reduced) without direct sunlight.

Solar is not a perfect or only replacement for burned fuel generation, plus its requires light so it can't operate at night or as efficiently when when light levels are low or at acute angles to the panels. PV as a sole generator needs an energy storage solution to be able to provide usable power 24/7

PV is not the most efficient means of collecting solar energy, but it has so few side effects, and small arrays can meet the needs of certain uses with the minimum of fuss. The convenience offsets inefficiency. A good example would be remote locations where no other power is available.

Similar arguments can be made for wind farms, though the construction stage is more aggressive than for a PV farm.

Assuming the world does reduce its carbon footprint, we are going to have to get used to the sight of solar and wind farms, both of which are far more sustainable and benign to the environment than burning fuel to generate power.

 

[Raywood]

Near us is what was the largest windfarm in Europe at the time it was built although where it stands now I am mot sure. It is built on moorland on top of a very windy hill that is of little use ,other than as an amenity for hardy walkers. The land is very poor and even sheep struggle with it so there is no real loss here and the site is now more of an attraction for walkers so no real loss there and there is even a part time cafe.
What we we need is more proper planning and sites should be better suited than many we now have. With proper concern for the location we can do better.

 

[Dustydog]

A 31,100 PV panel solar farm two miles from me has just been approved by the Council. It is not visible from the road. A temporary entrance will be made and then closed once the 7 invertor cabins and general construction are complete. Maintenance is anticipated to be minimal. Wild life was a major consideration. All safeguards are promised. Grass will be laid and sheep,will graze freely , rabbits deer etc. There were no objections. Other than the initial manufacturing and installation cost an annual wash over of the panels is allegedly all that is necessary.
So how about the windmills on the top of homes? They are available. Anyone got one?

 

[Ern]

A 31,100 PV panel solar farm two miles from me has just been approved by the Council. It is not visible from the road. A temporary entrance will be made and then closed once the 7 invertor cabins and general construction are complete. Maintenance is anticipated to be minimal. Wild life was a major consideration. All safeguards are promised. Grass will be laid and sheep,will graze freely , rabbits deer etc. There were no objections. Other than the initial manufacturing and installation cost an annual wash over of the panels is allegedly all that is necessary.
So how about the windmills on the top of homes? They are available. Anyone got one?

As I said to the bloke with the white beard and red coat a few days ago, "I dont care what your name is, if you don't get that thing off my roof, I will be up there to sort it".

 

[otherclive]

A 31,100 PV panel solar farm two miles from me has just been approved by the Council. It is not visible from the road. A temporary entrance will be made and then closed once the 7 invertor cabins and general construction are complete. Maintenance is anticipated to be minimal. Wild life was a major consideration. All safeguards are promised. Grass will be laid and sheep,will graze freely , rabbits deer etc. There were no objections. Other than the initial manufacturing and installation cost an annual wash over of the panels is allegedly all that is necessary.
So how about the windmills on the top of homes? They are available. Anyone got one?

I remember David Cameron enthusing about domestic wind turbines and DIY stores started to sell them. The consensus amongst experts was all they were good for was BQ and Homebase shareholders.

 

[RogerL]

Near us is what was the largest windfarm in Europe at the time it was built although where it stands now I am mot sure. It is built on moorland on top of a very windy hill that is of little use ,other than as an amenity for hardy walkers. The land is very poor and even sheep struggle with it so there is no real loss here and the site is now more of an attraction for walkers so no real loss there and there is even a part time cafe.
What we we need is more proper planning and sites should be better suited than many we now have. With proper concern for the location we can do better.

So the wildlife that live on moorland are no real loss ?

Fortunately, public opinion has changed official policy and off-shore is now the place to put wind-farms, not on unspoilt moorlands.

 

[JezzerB]

Put them on moorlands and solar on the disused areas left by power stations they decommissioned. Imo benefits far outweigh the cons and much wildlife still lives happily round windfarms and solar farmss. I think they look great.far better than pylons. Our local farmer wanted to build a wind turbine near our village. The nimbys wound me big time. I wrote in favour there are now two and no one notices them. What do you want nuclear power with radiation causing all sorts of worries or solar and wind? As for solar being a waste of time here they do work when it's cloudy. Till fusion arrives.....

 

[otherclive]

Put them on moorlands and solar on the disused areas left by power stations they decommissioned. Imo benefits far outweigh the cons and much wildlife still lives happily round windfarms and solar farmss. I think they look great.far better than pylons. Our local farmer wanted to build a wind turbine near our village. The nimbys wound me big time. I wrote in favour there are now two and no one notices them. What do you want nuclear power with radiation causing all sorts of worries or solar and wind? As for solar being a waste of time here they do work when it's cloudy. Till fusion arrives.....

As a teenager weekends would often be spent walking in the Peak District. Then I ve had the privilege of living in Wales, Dartmoor and Cumbria so I greatly appreciate the peace and serenity of our uplands. So I’m not greatly in favour of too many wind farms sited in such beautiful areas, but do accept that some have been and can be sited in considered areas. Offshore offers the greatest potential for the scale of capacity required.

 

[Dustydog]

Maybe in years to come the wind farms of today will reflect the beauty of our Victorian Viaducts and bridges which enhance our Countryside.😉😉😉

 

[JezzerB]

AS above i think they're quite stunning , but far far far better than those awaful pylons

 

[otherclive]

Maybe in years to come the wind farms of today will reflect the beauty of our Victorian Viaducts and bridges which enhance our Countryside.😉😉😉

When I see the equivalent of the Settle to Carlisle, or the Jacobite steamers I might be more tolerant of inshore wind in areas of great beauty. 🚂😊

 

[Dustydog]

When I see the equivalent of the Settle to Carlisle, or the Jacobite steamers I might be more tolerant of inshore wind in areas of great beauty. 🚂😊

If we all remove the rose tinted specs I don’t think I will be any more tolerant😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

 

[ProfJohnL]

We marvel at the quiet beauty of the canals and old railway infrastructure, and as Dusty says it's rose tinted spectacles. When these "marvels were constructed they were working tools, and attractiveness was not even on the agenda. The canals especially were worked heavily and it not the sort of place you would have even thought of to spend any leisure time. The boaters were renown for being hard working, and not giving any leeway. Fights would often occur when boats were waiting for a lock to become vacant, becasue time was money to them, and missing a delivery or pick up time lost them income.

How things have changed, we now think of canals as being havens of peace and calm, and many work hard to restore them for leisure purposes.

Also look at how many of Beeching's closed lines are now heritage railways, yet in their day they were dirty put clouds of soot over properties near by and were responsible for many trackside fires as cinders were blown out of the funnels.

Even power stations have had their admirers, and how many vista's have changed since so many cooling towers have been removed. Some cooling towers were designed and painted to reflect beautiful natural curve (Rugeley B) They were useful land marks for ramblers and avid map readers. Thank God for Sat Nav.

Perhaps in the future a few wind farms will be granted, buildings of architectural importance status to show future generations how power was generated in the old days, and they marvel at how we managed without nuclear Fusion.

Its all relative............

 

[Ern]

Perhaps in the future a few wind farms will be granted, buildings of architectural importance status to show future generations how power was generated in the old days, and they marvel at how we managed without nuclear Fusion.

Its all relative............

I fail to see how a wind turbine or wind farm can be anything other than plain ugly. The wind farms visible offshore or on the crest of distant hills are sort of acceptable because they are distant and smaller to the eye, but the closer you get to them the more awful they look, towering over the environment like giants looking down. I cannot see how, when redundant, they may be appreciated or useful.

 

[otherclive]

I fail to see how a wind turbine or wind farm can be anything other than plain ugly. The wind farms visible offshore or on the crest of distant hills are sort of acceptable because they are distant and smaller to the eye, but the closer you get to them the more awful they look, towering over the environment like giants looking down. I cannot see how, when redundant, they may be appreciated or useful.

The good point is that when redundant they can easily be removed and the land remediated far more easily than for coal mines or coal power stations. . At sea because they contain minimal polluting materials once “ cleaned “ they could be dropped and form reefs or marine protection areas. Although bringing back ashore is eminently feasible compared to decommissioning off shore rigs and the systems on the seabed. To me offshore siting is much preferred.

 

[Parksy]

We marvel at the quiet beauty of the canals and old railway infrastructure, and as Dusty says it's rose tinted spectacles. When these "marvels were constructed they were working tools, and attractiveness was not even on the agenda. The canals especially were worked heavily and it not the sort of place you would have even thought of to spend any leisure time. The boaters were renown for being hard working, and not giving any leeway. Fights would often occur when boats were waiting for a lock to become vacant, becasue time was money to them, and missing a delivery or pick up time lost them income.

How things have changed, we now think of canals as being havens of peace and calm, and many work hard to restore them for leisure purposes.

Also look at how many of Beeching's closed lines are now heritage railways, yet in their day they were dirty put clouds of soot over properties near by and were responsible for many trackside fires as cinders were blown out of the funnels.

Even power stations have had their admirers, and how many vista's have changed since so many cooling towers have been removed. Some cooling towers were designed and painted to reflect beautiful natural curve (Rugeley B) They were useful land marks for ramblers and avid map readers. Thank God for Sat Nav.

Perhaps in the future a few wind farms will be granted, buildings of architectural importance status to show future generations how power was generated in the old days, and they marvel at how we managed without nuclear Fusion.

Its all relative............

As somebody who grew up in the heart of the industrial Black Country, I'd agree that features such as iron canal bridges, old railway stations and even some industrial buildings had a degree of decorative artistic merit, but it was never appreciated or thought of as being decorative in any way at the time.
It all looks very nice now through the prism of time on a visit to the Black Country Living Museum or the museums of Ironbridge Gorge, but when I was a boy the industrial architecture that visitors arrive by the coach load to visit today were just sources of smoke, grime, dust and noise for those of us who lived amongst it.
I'm no great lover of wind farms or solar farms, especially in the middle of beautiful countryside, but in their favour the renewable energy installations are not sentencing those who live near to them to lifetimes of poor health leading to early death.

 

[otherclive]

As somebody who grew up in the heart of the industrial Black Country, I'd agree that features such as iron canal bridges, old railway stations and even some industrial buildings had a degree of decorative artistic merit, but it was never appreciated or thought of as being decorative in any way at the time.
It all looks very nice now through the prism of time on a visit to the Black Country Living Museum or the museums of Ironbridge Gorge, but when I was a boy the industrial architecture that visitors arrive by the coach load to visit today were just sources of smoke, grime, dust and noise for those of us who lived amongst it.
I'm no great lover of wind farms or solar farms, especially in the middle of beautiful countryside, but in their favour the renewable energy installations are not sentencing those who live near to them to lifetimes of poor health leading to early death.

I recall regularly driving up to Dowty in Wolverhampton in the late 1970s and from the elevated section of the M5 the amount of chimneys emitting black smoke was unbelievable even after the clean air acts had forced smokeless fuels on domestic users.

 

[Dustydog]

No way does a wind turbine have the architectural beauty of a classic bridge( Forth Railway) or Ribblehead Viaduct or Glenfinnan Viaduct or the old red brick Kendrick building by the elevated section of the M5. Realistically I cannot imagine in a million years granting wind turbines the beauty tag😎😎

 

[Jcloughie]

It’s all in the eye of the beholder. Personally I find wind turbines very impressive and beautiful in there own way. Same with wind I mean solar farms, I am amazed that large farms can be hidden from the road by a hedge. And when you see them from a distance they sometimes appear more like lakes, a bit like polly-tunnels.

John

 

[Dustydog]

John
Do you mean solar farms 😜