Have I been Sacked?

[Gagakev]

Had a heated discussion today with the MD of the company I work for, been there 7 years as a contract's manager, I had reason to visit the main branch where he is mainly located to collect a lorry load of materials and return them back to the depot I run. As soon as I arrived he ORDERED me to the office for which I replied I would like to load first, but oh no OFFICE FIRST, so off I trot following him, his voice was then raised about a certain contract we have, (bear in mind he set the programme and I was following it to the T) the lads on site changed the programme of works!! and it was my fault!!
After taking about 5 mins of his vebal I retaliated, then he gave me even more, so I decided that before I punch his lights out I would walk out and load my lorry and dissapear, then I get both barrell's IF YOU ------- WALK OUT, JUST GET IN THAT -------- LORRY AND ---- --- LEAVE YOUR ------- KEYS IN THE OFFICE AND CLEAR YOUR DESK, I then told him he had an attitude problem, smiled got in the lorry and went back to the yard only to find him there on my return, so I didnt speak to him and duly started to clear my desk. He then said I have got to do this right and as we have a witness ( my supervisor) it will stand up in court, you are suspended forewith.
I thought you sacked me on the spot?
Give me keys and phone, supervisor (great bloke) then said why dont you two take a cooling off period and discuss it on monday morning?
MD then said I with draw your suspension, a meeting will take place on Monday, so I left work and headed home.
But my theroy in all this is he sacked me, then suspended me without with out withdrawing the sacking, then withdrew the suspension,and gave us a cooling off period
What are your thoughts?

 

[forestgump]

there is a route of warnings verble and writen

 

[Gagakev]

there is a route of warnings verble and writen

I can just see the wording on the written one, I SACKED HIM BECAUSE I VERBALLY ABUSED HIM.

 

[forestgump]

it is not so easy to sack someone unless the right route has been taken if you take advice .

 

[thursdays child]

Gagakev, are you a member of a union or do you have access via any insurances to legal advice? See what happens on Monday and get clarification on the nature of the meeting,is it formal and filed.Have you had your options explained and been offered a representaive of your choice to accompany you.In my time in employment when conducting a formal disciplinary meeting a member of the HR team had to attend to take notes. Before the meeting take the time to write down everything you can about the exchange you had with the MD.Hopefully all will go well but if you are not satisfied you can consult ACAS for advice. Stay calm,listen carefully and do not interrupt.The reason for having a person with you is because they are not so emotionally involved and better able to stay calm.Try not to discuss the problem with people you work with unless you think they can be of real assistance.
Hopefully it is just a storm in a teacup and a case of two people sabre rattling. MD must be under a great deal of pressure to conduct himself in such an unprofessional manner but we are all just human beings.
Good Luck and remember Calm and Controlled!!!
Thursdays Child

 

[RogerB]

Go on the ACAS website and you will see the exact procedure that he has to follow.You will then be in a strong position when you next meet.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Kev
This situation was not of your making and from what you've told us it would appear that there is some sort of misunderstanding between the MD and yourself over an altered contract.
During heated discussions things are sometimes said in anger and blame wrongly apportioned and the cooling off period will give the MD a chance to re-assess the situation and cool off, and it will give you a chance to prepare your facts so that you can respond to the situation coolly and calmly and without wanting to punch someone's lights out.
Did anybody witness the original shouting match where the MD said that if you walked out you could hand in your keys and clear your desk?
It looks to me as though the supervisor who suggested the suspension may have mentioned to the MD that he was acting in haste and therefore illegally because if you are employed by this company the MD obviously hasn't followed any kind of disciplinary procedure and the supervisor knows this.
The MD behaved unprofessionally, like some sort of Victorian mill owner, and he has probably breached this procedure so after speaking with the supervisor has had to withdraw whatever was imposed in anger and haste, therefore you are not sacked.
If possible have your own witness with you when you attend Monday's meeting, if this is not possible insist on others being present but above all, whatever happens stay completely calm and clear headed and if you are to be disciplined then make sure that the company procedure is followed to the letter in case you need to seek a judgement from an industrial tribunal at some later stage either as a result of this or some future incident when past evidence will be heard.

 

[thursdays child]

ACAS helpline is open Sat until 13.00hrs
08457 47 47 47.
Thursdays Child

 

[Robtel]

As already suggested ACAS helpline is good, I have used the employer's section of this on several occasions in my own line of work.
Also you should have an employment contract which might have a section detailing your company's disciplinary policy, if not there then your company should have a separate disciplinary policy and procedure, get a hold of that and see what your employer has written down regarding procedure to be followed. It normally gives details of what behaviour/actions are deemed disciplinary and what level e.g minor or gross misconduct and exactly what procedures need to be followed before actions can be taken.
Going on what you have said in your original post your senior has not acted in a professional manner, he seems to have decide in advance that whatever has happened was your fault, he does not appear to have conducted any form of investigation, he did not inform you he was conducting an investigation into wrong doing, if he felt you were guilty of gross or serious misconduct worthy of dismissal he should have suspended you "without predudice" pending investigation and a properly conducted disciplinary meeting when you would have the opportunity to be accompanied by a colleague or trade union representative. In short I feel that if he were to go ahead on Monday with your dismissal you have very good reasons to go to tribunal, I don't think he has followed anything like proper procedure.
Someone earlier mentioned that as MD he must be under a lot of pressure, while that may be true, in his position he should be well aware of the way he conducts himself. You also mention in original post you are contracts manager and that changes had been made by other workers in the yard and that you were being blamed for that, if I read it correctly. Are you the Line Manager for these employees? if yes then unfortunately you will have some responsibility for their actions unless you can show they were working in direct contradiction to your instructions and without your knowledge.
Hopefully by Monday things will have cooled off and the MD will offer the apology I feel you deserve.
Good Luck
Robert

 

[Gagakev]

Gagakev, are you a member of a union or do you have access via any insurances to legal advice? See what happens on Monday and get clarification on the nature of the meeting,is it formal and filed.Have you had your options explained and been offered a representaive of your choice to accompany you.In my time in employment when conducting a formal disciplinary meeting a member of the HR team had to attend to take notes. Before the meeting take the time to write down everything you can about the exchange you had with the MD.Hopefully all will go well but if you are not satisfied you can consult ACAS for advice. Stay calm,listen carefully and do not interrupt.The reason for having a person with you is because they are not so emotionally involved and better able to stay calm.Try not to discuss the problem with people you work with unless you think they can be of real assistance.
Hopefully it is just a storm in a teacup and a case of two people sabre rattling. MD must be under a great deal of pressure to conduct himself in such an unprofessional manner but we are all just human beings.
Good Luck and remember Calm and Controlled!!!
Thursdays Child

Hi TC nice to see you back with us after your mamoth jaunt

No I am not a member of a union, and obviously as contract manager I have to know a certain amount about the disiplinary procedures, so I know he is in the wrong. I have not discussed any of this with anyone at work, only close family and of course the supervisor.
This is actually the second time this has happened with him using the same kind of language the first time around, dont get me wrong, I am no prude, in the construction industry it is widely used. But you and I know there is a time and place.
Like you I hope it is a storm in a tea cup and a solution is found even if it gives me time to look else where, I really dont want to work for a guy like him. There are other reason's for saying this as well but they are not part of this current situation.

 

[Gagakev]

Hi Kev

Did anybody witness the original shouting match where the MD said that if you walked out you could hand in your keys and clear your desk?
His secretary heard part of it then he closed the door between us so she heard no more but then the yard man heard the rest as I walked towards the lorry
It looks to me as though the supervisor who suggested the suspension may have mentioned to the MD that he was acting in haste and therefore illegally because if you are employed by this company the MD obviously hasn't followed any kind of disciplinary procedure and the supervisor knows this.
As said the supervisor is a great bloke, I engaged him (he he) and yes he did tell him before I arrived back that he would be losing a massive assest to the company (his words not mine) this was confirmed by our secretary when she phoned me in the evennig to see if I wa OK

 

[Gagakev]

As already suggested ACAS helpline is good, I have used the employer's section of this on several occasions in my own line of work.
Also you should have an employment contract which might have a section detailing your company's disciplinary policy, if not there then your company should have a separate disciplinary policy and procedure, get a hold of that and see what your employer has written down regarding procedure to be followed. It normally gives details of what behaviour/actions are deemed disciplinary and what level e.g minor or gross misconduct and exactly what procedures need to be followed before actions can be taken.
Hi Rob, I have a contract and it is set out, and he has'nt folowed the proper procedure

Someone earlier mentioned that as MD he must be under a lot of pressure, while that may be true, in his position he should be well aware of the way he conducts himself. You also mention in original post you are contracts manager and that changes had been made by other workers in the yard and that you were being blamed for that, if I read it correctly. Are you the Line Manager for these employees? If yes then unfortunately you will have some responsibility for their actions unless you can show they were working in direct contradiction to your instructions and without your knowledge.
The contract concerned is on a large new build housing site, and as it is fast ongoing there are two lads from my depot and two lads from his depot, it was his lads that made the changes, so technically they are his responsibility.
Hopefully by Monday things will have cooled off and the MD will offer the apology I feel you deserve.
Good Luck
Robert

 

[Gagakev]

Thanks to you all for your replies and also Roger B for the Acas advice, going to spend time tomorrow preparing for Monday morning.

 

[thursdays child]

Gagakev do you have a record of other instances where the MD has treated you in this manner. If so you would probably have a case for Constructive Dismissal which as you are likely to know is where a person in authority treats an employee in such a manner as to lead them to give. notice. The most important thing to bear in mind is stay calm and say as little as possible to exascerbate the situation. It is difficult to be specific on such a public arena as none of us are directly involved and can only give general advice. Witnesses who are prepared to support your case are invaluable especially if they are perceived as being unbiased and having integrity. I do so sympathise with your version of events.Having been both a representative and department head my experience ls that if a person such as MD compromises his position they will very quckly get the information needed to limit any damage done. This is why we are all telling you to do the same thing. Preparation is the key word and do not be afraid to ask for time to prepare your case if you are not comfortable.Never walk out without giving a very good reason and offering the opportunity for further discussion.
On a lighter note thank you for your welcome back.Doubly valuable given the circumstances and how .pre-occupied you must be. Family support is a very precious commodity and I am sure you have lots of that.
TC

 

[Gagakev]

Gagakev do you have a record of other instances where the MD has treated you in this manner. If so you would probably have a case for Constructive Dismissal which as you are likely to know is where a person in authority treats an employee in such a manner as to lead them to give. notice. The most important thing to bear in mind is stay calm and say as little as possible to exascerbate the situation. It is difficult to be specific on such a public arena as none of us are directly involved and can only give general advice. Witnesses who are prepared to support your case are invaluable especially if they are perceived as being unbiased and having integrity. I do so sympathise with your version of events.Having been both a representative and department head my experience ls that if a person such as MD compromises his position they will very quckly get the information needed to limit any damage done. This is why we are all telling you to do the same thing. Preparation is the key word and do not be afraid to ask for time to prepare your case if you are not comfortable.Never walk out without giving a very good reason and offering the opportunity for further discussion.
On a lighter note thank you for your welcome back.Doubly valuable given the circumstances and how .pre-occupied you must be. Family support is a very precious commodity and I am sure you have lots of that.
TC

At the end of the day TC all I want to do is go to work earn my money and come home. Weather it's for him or some one else. I actually started and set up the depot from scratch, built up a good workforce and client base. And even in this economic un-rest turn him a profit. To take things into perspective my job description does not include driving, loading, or unloading lorries, indeed I even work in the yard on occasion's and have even swept the floors. We are currently very busy and thats the reason why I decided to go back to "hands on".
PS, As a wise owl do you fancy being my rep??

 

[thursdays child]

Gagakev,were I still in full working order and not paying the price for one too many battles I would be proud to give you any help you asked of me. I have to say I made a formidable adversay if my opponent was guilty,Never lost a case in 10years.Fortunatley for all involved I worked with people of the highest moral character for most of the time from the directors to shop floor.This changed when the new gaurd took over after a buy out,The axe swung and heads rolled indiscriminately,To be regretted later when someones real worth was realised.My son was himself just such a casualty and the MD asked me if he would cosider coming back againt when it became clear that no-one else could run the dept as well and transport costs had risen expenenecially. Once bitten and all that.Whenever I was asked what will happen I always replied"what would you do in his place.Play your cards close to your chest and dont let them know where you are coming from.If your contract of employment is of the same structure as the ones I had there was a get our clause that used to read at the bottom.Which made the job descrition ambiguous to say the least.
(And any other reasonable duties as required to ensure the efficient running of the company)
TC

 

[forestgump]

gaga you know i am your mate . get a head band string vest wrist bands and kick the s./././t out off him and say dont push me rambo style you will be ok trust me i ama doctor as i saiad you can not be sacked thay easey it is verey hard to sack some one instant almost impossible yo need a case.

 

[Gagakev]

You know what Forest, I Love you, You have Just put A smile on my face for the first time this weekend, cheers

 

[forestgump]

onist guvtake the leagle road you can not lose if he has sacked you there will be witnesse also a log of warnings constructed dissmisal ie/the best he can do to get rid off you will need proof iff he is in fault you may be in hand for a pay out /but i would decline and accept knowing he has groveld /and you will let him off (he as done this on the spur off the momment)crocs ok rule

 

[forestgump]

you willnot need any help as the inquest will be easy you must take lead and ask why you have been sacked and then bring your cause over /the reasone or your termination the grounds on witch this is so(you are not neede falls into redundecee) you carnt do your job will be followed buy warnings (3 verbale 2 writen) instant dissmisall is a breach off company rules big (sh<<<<<it) that you say you have not done.(big brother seems to be at hand) take a break in cra van and come back when it feels good. get some crocs man and chill .

 

[Surfer]

MD was definitely not acting correctly. For some info read here

 

[Gagakev]

Thanks for the link Surfer, what a mine feild!
Whatever has to be done will be done.
Hope he see's sense though, gives me an apology, returns to his other depot and that leaves me to look around for other employment.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Kev
Sorry to hear all this. The MD is way out of order. I'll be home tomorrow and will see if there's anything else to say although I do think Rob and TC have covered most aspects.
Whatever you do , do not punch him.

.Just listen and make sure any further outbursts are witnessed,
Good luck.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

As DD says, have a witness because you are entitled to. It can even be a solicitor although they cannot speak but this usually does the trick. The downside is it will cost you some pretty pennies.
You know your boss Kev and whether he's a bully boy but to give you instant dismissal they have to be on a solid footing these days.
My SIL was called into his shift managers office where the manager grabbed him by the lapels and shoved up against some filing cabinets threatening him. It was because my SIL wouldn't work on a machine he hadn't been trained on.
Over the weekend the shift manager obviously had had a word with the MD and my SIL in was called into the office and given instant dismissal for supposedly assaulting the shift manager.
He took the company to court and they didn't even have the balls to back up their claims and settled out of court. The downside was my SIL now had no job although within 2 days the factory next door employed him because they knew he had a good reputation for work and not going sick.

 

[thursdays child]

Best of luck tomorrow Kev.Try and have a good nights rest.We will all be thinking of you and hoping it all goes well. Remember that sometimes a bad situation can lead to a change for the better. Everybody knows the cowboy in the white hat always wins in the end so brush off that stetson partner and square those shoulders!!!!
TC