Have you noticed something about 4X4's

[Steve L]

The only group of cars that causes a tidal wave of deffencive journalisum is a 4X4.

Nobody has to defend a Vauxhall, Ford, VW, Audi, Citreon, Jag, Mercedes, BMW or a Renault. But when it comes to 4X4 the pressure's on!!

Quite frankly I don't give a stuff who drives what as it is down to personal choice and circumstance. But what gets me is how bloody minded and forcefull people get trying to justify their chelsea tractor.

What I find quite ironic too is the posture of the driver in his chelsea, he always seems to be looking at the "boil" on the end of his/her nose!

Now those of you who have read my previous threads will of gathered that I've owned 4X4's and had quite a wealthy lifestyle, fell of the platform and am bouncing back. I've never thought of myself as "considerable better than yow" or in a different class. I don't have to have a mansion, or a Jag to say who I am.

Im just me, average Joe.

You can call me what you like but never call me late for breakfast is my motto.

Also if one takes the Michael, then do expect to have the same dished out. There's another pet hate of mine, those who give it, but can't take it.

I had a brother-in-law who was like that. He took the mick out of my workforce so much that they came to me with complaint. I told them I'd sort him out my way. I took a permanent marker and liberally colored in the seal pad on his ear muffs. Well he put them on with pride, then popped them down to his neck, then to his cheecks inseveral different places. By this time he had very black "elvis" side burns!! He kept asking the lads what was so funny but the couldn't say for laughing. Then one piped up " you'd best have a look in the mirror"

Well he went berzerk, "who the hell did this, I'll kill him" was the cry. I walked out to the shopfloor and said "it was me". Then proceeded to tell him that he'd been winding up the workforce so he should expecct some back, and ifhe couldn't take it, then don't dish it out!!

Funny thing is he ain't spoke to me for the last five years. Now thats bad sportsmanship.

 

[Lutz]

That's why I've never made any attempt to justify my 4x4, Steve. I have it because I like it and that's it. I have absolutely no objective reason for having it. If I had to part with it, I'd get rid of the second car as well and buy just one larger car capable of doing the job of both. Of course, it wouldn't be able to do everything that currently the two between them can but that's a compromise I would be able to live with, if necessary.

 

[Lol1]

Way to go!

Couldn't find enough debate on 4x4s in the other threads Steve in Leo?

Why do owners defend 4x4s so much?

Tha'ts easy, because they are always being targeted by people like you.

 

[RichardS1]

On the other hand Steve no other design of vehicle tends to get the same amount of inaccurate opinion aimed at them as 4x4's seem to get. Like you have said I also could not careless what vehicle anyone decides to drive, many cars are capable of being fine towcars these days and it is personal choice what someone decides to drive.

 

[CliveV]

Agree 100% with Lol.

This is another attempt to stoke the fires of the 4x4 debate.

Which considering the excellent and good natured debate on two adjacent threads a third hardly seems necessary.

Particularly as Steve seems to want to lower the tone significantly by reference to how 4x4 drivers have "boils on their noses".

Puerile.

 

[Guest]

I've heard it all now!

Sounds like a great management style, Inking a trouble makers ears.

With that style of management is there any wonder there was a fall from "the platform".

 

[Guest]

Has anyone looked at the cost of a Chelsea House. Quite an afluent area.

No one seems to complain about large fancy houses and their effect ;-)

 

[Steve L]

Lutz has actually got a very valid point and I totally agree with him. You see, when you've bought a vehicle be it a 4X4 or a car and you've bought it to satisfy your needs, then costant vindification is not required.

As for LOL and Clive. If you have read my threads in the past I can praise a 4X4 for it's capabilities. It's the people behind the wheel that make chelsea tractors out of them. Some folk seem to think of the tractor as an iconic status symbol and need one just for that purpose in life. As a work horse for towing and traversing fields a 4X4 is right at home.

Well Euro, sometimes one has to lower their sence of humor to shopfloor level to enforce the point. As I was asked in a job interview once "how do you feel about working on the shopfloor after being MD for ten years of your own half million per annum company?" my reply was, "at 16 I started on the shopfloor, at 21 I joined the family firm on the shopfloor, because my father said he would not bring me in at management level until the respect of the workers was EARNED".

Now in the same company I've worked from the shopfloor to a tier 3 manager on the tree. I have such respect from the shopfloor that if I'm getting a shafting for something that's not our fault, the workforce have walked into my directors office "on mass" to defend me. Thats respect for you and I do the same for them too.

I'll go to the CNC area and run five machines for the lads at night for an hour so they can have a proper break and not the poxy 20 mins given by the firm.

Steve.

 

[Guest]

Steve.

The problem is not justification of ones choice but being left to make ones own choice without having to be pointed at and be called names.

I had a friend who drove a Skoda when they were unfashionable, it was his company car that got him from A to B quite well and it was cheap motoring that helped his employers get off the ground financially. He wasn't bothered as it gave a set of wheels, but he got fed up with "skip" jokes etc all the time the same as I and others get fed up with pointing and name calling.

If you look at resident of Chelsea tha drives a RR, you are likely to find a Rolex on their wrist and a

 

[SteveW77]

What a Hero!!!!

Steve W

 

[Steve L]

Please tell your mate Euro, not to put twin exhaust pipes on his Skoda. Someone will wheel it away mistaking it for a wheelbarrow.

Joking apart that's exactly my point. People mock the under dog and often don't realise they are mocking a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Take the Skoda for instance. It is a VW passat mechanically and both cars share the Audi A4 platform. So there's pedigree in the mongrel.

Folks mock'd my 1998 Laguna estate and when they first came out even I didn't like the looks. But look at pedigree again, it was top touring car in 97/98 on the race track. Jason Plato was one of the names who cut their teeth in Laguna's before going on to better things. Road holding is superb and I get 44mpg solo.

My previous car (renault 25) even today doesn't look too out of date on the roads and that car first came out in 1984.

Back in the 70's the Skoda esstelle was the one to knock the Ford escort Mk 2 off the group N rally sceene. You could take an Esstelle in stock form, do a few minor tweeks, slap on a set of motorway remould mud & snow tyres and thrash a works Mk2 Escort.

People are people where ever they come from and the ones that get me are the pretentious pompas idiots who look at material things as status symbols. You know the type. Those who have ordered their 07 model (07 plate) of exactly the same car they bought in Sept 06 (56 plate)just to keep up with the "Jones's".

If I was the car dealer and knew that one, I'd buy two cars at a time and store one for 6 months just to Pi** them off. Then as they drive off I'd announce that "actually mate you just bought last years model".

You see often cars of a top spec or bottom spec can hang around the manufacturers holding yard for a year before they get tarted up as your Alize, Aspen, or limited edition sale special. What they realy are, are cars that could not be sold due to being under spec'd compared to the opposition.

steve.

 

[Guest]

My friends Skoda was a long time back and I don't see what racing pedigree has to do with anything apart from advertising.

Touring car championship cars and Rally cars apart from the basic body shell look have about as much in common with their road car conterparts as they do with a Leer jet.

Race body shells have to come of the production line, but they stop the line and put in different spec steel sheet and press that for more torsional stiffness and they build in a race safety cage that makes the car handle. Engines are often mounted in a completely different position and then they have all the trick suspension and steering geometry and an engine that comes out of a top race engine builders workshop and a gear box and transmission from Hewland or X-trac and Ohlins keeping it all in trim.

Old family friend was a touring team race manager and some of his teams cars came off the same race built rally car jigs other brands.

UK touring car racing came to the front as for the cost of a 30 second TV ad you could give a team less than

 

[Steve L]

Actually Euro we as the average public often benifit vastly from race track developments.

For a start for any one design turing car championship to even run the manufacturer has to produce a minimum of 200 road going cars of the same basic spec to satisfy omologation regulations.

Hence we got Lancia intergrali's, Ford cosworths, Lotus carltons and two more recent icons Lotus Exige and Aston martin DB9R.

The latter two I had a personal hand in the chassis developement as I work for the company that pioneered the bonded aluminium chassis technology.

BMW for instance with it's M10 1500cc 4 cylinder engine developed it up to the engine for the 2002 and added a turbo charger and in 1984 became formula 1 world champions with what was a mid range peoples car engine developed and re-defined on the race track.

While a race car does get a lot of specialist technology put into it, five or ten years down the line we see the same technology in production cars. Just look at tip tronic gearboxes for that evidence.

By the way I'm quite happy with the suspension improvements the Williams team put ino the Laguna to give the superb cornering ability that lerks under what is an everyday family car.

Steve L.

 

[Lol1]

Steve, I think that those that read these pages on this forum, know where you stand on 4x4s. Trying to qualify your position by stating the obvious, doesn't make your derogatory terms on the subject, any more valid.

Personally, I think that the fact that you tow at a 100% ratio and probably over, using your Renault as a tow car, quite frightening. You may want to take the risk, but you involve others in that risk, that's not acceptable.

 

[Guest]

Actually Euro we as the average public often benifit vastly from race track developments.

For a start for any one design turing car championship to even run the manufacturer has to produce a minimum of 200 road going cars of the same basic spec to satisfy omologation regulations.

Hence we got Lancia intergrali's, Ford cosworths, Lotus carltons and two more recent icons Lotus Exige and Aston martin DB9R.

The latter two I had a personal hand in the chassis developement as I work for the company that pioneered the bonded aluminium chassis technology.

BMW for instance with it's M10 1500cc 4 cylinder engine developed it up to the engine for the 2002 and added a turbo charger and in 1984 became formula 1 world champions with what was a mid range peoples car engine developed and re-defined on the race track.

While a race car does get a lot of specialist technology put into it, five or ten years down the line we see the same technology in production cars. Just look at tip tronic gearboxes for that evidence.

By the way I'm quite happy with the suspension improvements the Williams team put ino the Laguna to give the superb cornering ability that lerks under what is an everyday family car.

Steve L.

You've answered your own post actually Steve. You claim a 97/98 TOCA pedigree for your 98 car yet posted ------

"While a race car does get a lot of specialist technology put into it, five or ten years down the line we see the same technology in production cars."

If you see a race track DB9R in the flesh it is again about as close to the road car as a Leer jet, no doubt Ford will use some of what Prodrive learn form the cars in future models but the new car used by a Mr Bond has come to late for the Race Aston DB9R that raced this year as last years DB9R was completely different to this years.

As for 200 car Homologation your answer lies in "same basic spec". The cars share the same look and the same body shell style and little else. The handling relies on what the race team add in not the chassis handed to them.

The DB9R is the same, the basic chassis maybe good put the cars that come out of Prodrive's doors rely on a competely different spec and set-up and any benefits to the road car will come much further down the time line.

 

[Guest]

You've answered your own post actually Steve. You claim a 97/98 TOCA pedigree for your 98 car yet posted ------

"While a race car does get a lot of specialist technology put into it, five or ten years down the line we see the same technology in production cars."

If you see a race track DB9R in the flesh it is again about as close to the road car as a Leer jet, no doubt Ford will use some of what Prodrive learn form the cars in future models but the new car used by a Mr Bond has come to late for the Race Aston DB9R that raced this year as last years DB9R was completely different to this years.

As for 200 car Homologation your answer lies in "same basic spec". The cars share the same look and the same body shell style and little else. The handling relies on what the race team add in not the chassis handed to them.

The DB9R is the same, the basic chassis maybe good put the cars that come out of Prodrive's doors rely on a competely different spec and set-up and any benefits to the road car will come much further down the time line.

 

[sparkes]

Personally I think this thread is just a waste of time. Steve, makes the point that his opinion is against 4x4's, He instantly attacks the drivers of them making out he is just an average Joe!

I am pleased that the average caravaner does not tow at the limits, experienced or not.

Just another wind up thread that is designed to attack an individuals choice.

I do feel however that the terms used in the original post are derogatory and against the acceptable use policy of this site.

 

[Steve L]

Well Lol where I stand is quite simple. It's called freedom of choice.

People chose whatever vehicle they want to drive because it suits their personal circumstances.

Yes I've been a 4X4 owner and as you have stated I now tow with a car at 100% of the manufactures tow capacity for that car. While it may not be prudent for a novice driver to tow at 100% it is not beyond the realms of being safe, as most accidents are not attributed to speed or weight but down to driver error.

Most caravan accidents can be avoided by drivers being more patient and also attentive to the load distribution (nose weight).

Now as for Euro's nit pick on my year gaff's. I'm afraid to say but five to ten years is often the research and developement time before Joe Public see's the improvements. For example I knocked up the first set of 20 prototype chassis parts for the DB9R back in 2001. Even todays cars (sepang) as we know them as won't hit the roads until 2008. So no doubt the Laguna was being built in the late 80's under wraps.

Now as a little boy I had a corgi toy car based on a 1970's space tv adventure program called "adams probe" funny thing though Ford brought out a mid 90's sports car called the "probe" and ironically I does resemble the corgi toy built 20 years before. I wonder if Adam worked as a design draftsman for Ford and sold off a design on the QT occassionally? You see, hundreds of ideas often get shelved for being too far ahead of their time.

You only have to look at the Citreon DS19 for that with it's self levelling suspension and the steering dipped beam head lights. The mark 2 Jag and it's near invisable heated rear window of 1959 which came back as new inovation in the Mondaeo as the invisable heated front screen.

Steve.

 

[Guest]

Prodrive build the racing Astons and do the race and chassis set-up and only starting in 2004 for races in 2005. In 2004 they were Developing the 550 Ferrari's raced by the likes of Colin McRae.

Race Aston Martins be they DB9R or DBRS9 have your bonded chassis but would yo yo around the race track in competition if it were not for all the add ons that Prodrive use.

Apart from the safety cage that become or act as part of the chassis most of the body panels apart from the roof are replaced with carbon composites that lighten the car and add to torsional stiffness and also aid pitstop work on the car with such features as removable one piece front and rear end.

Under regulations the race car uses the road cars engine block, but that is about it.

It is then as close to being a Road going Aston Engine you are.

A few bits and bobs will drift into production and Aston may design in more torsional stiffness from what comes from race development. But the new car when it hits the track will then have all the adds many ons that make a race car go but are not practical in every day road use.

Racing brings engineering progress but the main benefit to a manufacturer is Brand Awareness and Image.

Fords F1 ambitions fell of the rails after taking over Stewart GP and branding as Jaguar, if Aston stay Ford owned it will not be a surprise to see Dave's new Prodrive F1 team carrying Aston Martin badging, but will have more to do with the Accountants, Brand Advertisers and PR dept at Ford than Car developmemt.

 

[Lol1]

You're getting a little bit defensive there, Steve. I wonder why?

I think that you will find that in the world of towing, that weight and speed are the main culprits when an accident occurs. This could of course be put down to a blanket reason of driver error, after all he/she is responsible for his load and the speed he drives. If you still claim to want freedom of choice, then may I suggest that you refrain from derogatory terms such as "Chelsea tractor" which simply adds fuel to the antis fire. That way you might find that when it comes time to change your car, you may still have a choice.

 

[CliveV]

Steve - Re the Ford Probe (known as the Ford Pube by all that know about cars it seems as it is rather poor in most respects) was not a Ford car at all as I recall - just a rebadged Mazda.

Hapens all the time - in Kenya in the 1980's I had a Ford Escort that was in fact a Mazda 323.

Honda sold the Land Rover Discovery as the Honda Countryman. Now a sought after import.

 

[Steve L]

You're getting a little bit defensive there, Steve. I wonder why?

I think that you will find that in the world of towing, that weight and speed are the main culprits when an accident occurs. This could of course be put down to a blanket reason of driver error, after all he/she is responsible for his load and the speed he drives. If you still claim to want freedom of choice, then may I suggest that you refrain from derogatory terms such as "Chelsea tractor" which simply adds fuel to the antis fire. That way you might find that when it comes time to change your car, you may still have a choice.

Actually lol you may well need to look inwardly on this one, as it was your good self who flagged up my towing situation.

Perhaps we should stop using the term "Chelsea tractor" may be Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol, Cheadle or any other affluant wanabe area would do.

Or should it be the Bling machine?

 

[johno1]

Lutz has actually got a very valid point and I totally agree with him. You see, when you've bought a vehicle be it a 4X4 or a car and you've bought it to satisfy your needs, then costant vindification is not required.

As for LOL and Clive. If you have read my threads in the past I can praise a 4X4 for it's capabilities. It's the people behind the wheel that make chelsea tractors out of them. Some folk seem to think of the tractor as an iconic status symbol and need one just for that purpose in life. As a work horse for towing and traversing fields a 4X4 is right at home.

Well Euro, sometimes one has to lower their sence of humor to shopfloor level to enforce the point. As I was asked in a job interview once "how do you feel about working on the shopfloor after being MD for ten years of your own half million per annum company?" my reply was, "at 16 I started on the shopfloor, at 21 I joined the family firm on the shopfloor, because my father said he would not bring me in at management level until the respect of the workers was EARNED".

Now in the same company I've worked from the shopfloor to a tier 3 manager on the tree. I have such respect from the shopfloor that if I'm getting a shafting for something that's not our fault, the workforce have walked into my directors office "on mass" to defend me. Thats respect for you and I do the same for them too.

I'll go to the CNC area and run five machines for the lads at night for an hour so they can have a proper break and not the poxy 20 mins given by the firm.

Steve.

nice one steve, not many managers will do that

 

[Richard_374240293]

My friends Skoda was a long time back and I don't see what racing pedigree has to do with anything apart from advertising.

Touring car championship cars and Rally cars apart from the basic body shell look have about as much in common with their road car conterparts as they do with a Leer jet.

Race body shells have to come of the production line, but they stop the line and put in different spec steel sheet and press that for more torsional stiffness and they build in a race safety cage that makes the car handle. Engines are often mounted in a completely different position and then they have all the trick suspension and steering geometry and an engine that comes out of a top race engine builders workshop and a gear box and transmission from Hewland or X-trac and Ohlins keeping it all in trim.

Old family friend was a touring team race manager and some of his teams cars came off the same race built rally car jigs other brands.

UK touring car racing came to the front as for the cost of a 30 second TV ad you could give a team less than