Help choosing tow car

[Beachball]

Yeah I'm totally with you and really did consider going for the bigger car and van but it's just really too expensive at the moment. We've brought the Xplore 586 & are really excited about it and it will probably be all we need in the end as a family of 4. So going to go for a good family car that is a good match for Xplore now and get planning some trips. That and start looking for what awning we want, there's another minefield. Oh well it's all interesting stuff.

Hi perrywalk how about a Nissan X Trail dci 130 that would make a good match for your new caravan.

 

[otherclive]

Your conclusion is pre-empting the research!

In the olden days, when blade stabilisers were the only stability option, we were advised not to use them to justify an otherwise unstable outfit - the same could be said today, don't use a car's ESP, ABS, etc and caravan's ATC to justify an otherwise unstable outfit - basic stability comes from the weight ratio.

And not to forget the loading weight and distribution, and driver too. But agree that the aids are just aids.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Given the quoted weight values for the Qashqai and the Xplore 586, I agree the combination does seem ill advised. Perrywalk would be better looking for either a more capable tow vehicle or a smaller caravan.

But there have been some other statements in some postings that are legally accurate, but do err on the side of safety so nothing wrong in following them.

When it comes to cars and caravans, the only legally enforceable weight limits are those that appear on the vehicle or trailers data plate. Other loads such as nose load and the towed trailers actual weight can only be used if there are concerns about load safety or vehicle safety.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Interesting! A couple of years ago we were looking at buying a Peugeot 3008 and would be towing a small caravan. Strangely we found out that if we changed the rear tyres for a slightly larger version, the car could legally tow the caravan with a MTPM of 1200kgs. Previously it was limited to 1100kgs.
Similar with Vauxhall many years ago. You could tow for instance 1800kg if the car only had the driver, but the more you put in the car the less the car could tow. Weird!

I've never heard of your first point before, interesting.

But your second point is quite common, Renault have used the same principle on several models, and I'm sure other manufacturers have done the same. The principle relies on the measured weight of the car + the measured weight of the trailer combined must not exceed the GTW of the tow vehicle.

I've seen some models where the max towed weight could be 300kg more than the tow vehicles GTW-GVW - essentially when the tow vehicle is in its kerbweight condition (obviously with the driver)

 

[perrywalk]

Hi perrywalk how about a Nissan X Trail dci 130 that would make a good match for your new caravan.

Yep that's a good suggestion. Just found a nice white one we're going to look at. The strange thing is that maybe I don't understand is that on Autotrader it states that minimum kerbweight is 1500kg and I thought the 85% calculation was based on that, so the caravan MTPLM should be a max of 1275kg. But if you select the car in towcar.info it bases the 85% calculation on a laiden weight of the car and says it's a fairly good match with our Xplore 586. Then shows the calculation as 77% with the caravan at 1370kg and the car at 1790kg. So I presume I can take that as an ok for the xtrail & the Xplore 586

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree the principles remain the same but technology has improved which should mean an up to date research would probably suggest a higher ratio is now fine.

This is a subject we have debated extensively in other threads. I too believe the current industry advice is far from ideal, and it ignores modern developments in both car and caravan running gear. I am on record of openly challenging the present advice ( and being shot down by traditionalists) and whilst some are open mined enough to agree the advice is overly restrictive, unlike many I do not assume that taking a scientific approach would necessarily bring an increase in the advisory towing ratio or what ever supersedes it.

The UoB study into stability (not towing ratio) as part of their conclusion did make the observation:

"It is interesting to see that the trailer mass alone does not dramatically affect the high-speed stability, as this runs contrary to current guidelines relating to limits on the relative mass of the car and trailer. "

Even some caravan manufacturers have questioned the industry advice, as it limits the caravans that customers will buy.

It is an area that does warrant a proper study, but as no one in the industry will admit to having control of the present advice. its difficult to get a consensus to put money into a study, so it's just going to perpetuate the present advice.

 

[otherclive]

Yep that's a good suggestion. Just found a nice white one we're going to look at. The strange thing is that maybe I don't understand is that on Autotrader it states that minimum kerbweight is 1500kg and I thought the 85% calculation was based on that, so the caravan MTPLM should be a max of 1275kg. But if you select the car in towcar.info it bases the 85% calculation on a laiden weight of the car and says it's a fairly good match with our Xplore 586. Then shows the calculation as 77% with the caravan at 1370kg and the car at 1790kg. So I presume I can take that as an ok for the xtrail & the Xplore 586

If you look at the top RHS of towcar.info it shows the caravan loaded to MTPLM, plus the car with a payload. For mine it is 150kg car payload. The towcar.info weight percentage ratio for loaded car and caravan, so mine is shown as 68% whereas if I use MTPLM and kerbeweight it comes out at 74%.

You need to dig deeper into the Autotrader kerb weight as models can vary considerably. Not knowing what year model you are considering but some autos had reduced towing weight, but not sure of years.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Yep that's a good suggestion. Just found a nice white one we're going to look at. The strange thing is that maybe I don't understand nis that on Autotrader it states that minimum kerbweight is 1500kg and I thought the 85% calculation was based on that, so the caravan MTPLM should be a max of 1275kg. But if you select the car in towcar.info it bases the 85% calculation on a laiden weight of the car and says it's a fairly good match with our Xplore 586. Then shows the calculation as 77% with the caravan at 1370kg and the car at 1790kg. So I presume I can take that as an ok for the xtrail & the Xplore 586

The "traditional" towing ratio is based on the MTPLM of the trailer divided by the kerbweight of the tow vehicle. One (of the many) of the issues with the advice it calls for data that is not always easy to find. Manufacturers are not required to publish kerbweights, and often they will just quote a rage of kerbweights for the range rather than a specific value for a particular vehicle.

Also there have been several different definitions of what constitute kerb weights so its a bit of a mine field. Manufacturers kerbweights often under estimate the actual value if it were measured, Daft as it may seem, even the paint can change the weight of a vehicle, and some options that are fitted would also contribute towards kerbweight. Consequently the towing ratio calculation is going to be a bit of a fudge.

Realistically the law only looks for compliance with axle loads Gross vehicle weight and gross Train Weight as the arbiter for the legality of towing, but it does not recognise caravans as being any different to any other trailer, but caravanners know very well that caravans by reason of the size and weight do represent a very significant factor that changes the handling and safety of any tow vehicle.

It is entirely sensible to keep the size and weight of any trailer as small as possible, and caravan especially so in recognition of the extra difficulty the caravan represents.

 

[otherclive]

The "traditional" towing ratio is based on the MTPLM of the trailer divided by the kerbweight of the tow vehicle. One (of the many) of the issues with the advice it calls for data that is not always easy to find. Manufacturers are not required to publish kerbweights, and often they will just quote a rage of kerbweights for the range rather than a specific value for a particular vehicle.

Also there have been several different definitions of what constitute kerb weights so its a bit of a mine field. Manufacturers kerbweights often under estimate the actual value if it were measured, Daft as it may seem, even the paint can change the weight of a vehicle, and some options that are fitted would also contribute towards kerbweight. Consequently the towing ratio calculation is going to be a bit of a fudge.

Realistically the law only looks for compliance with axle loads Gross vehicle weight and gross Train Weight as the arbiter for the legality of towing, but it does not recognise caravans as being any different to any other trailer, but caravanners know very well that caravans by reason of the size and weight do represent a very significant factor that changes the handling and safety of any tow vehicle.

It is entirely sensible to keep the size and weight of any trailer as small as possible, and caravan especially so in recognition of the extra difficulty the caravan represents.

If the OP looks at the cars V5 it should show Mass in Service which is near enough to kerbweight for starters.

 

[Buckman]

I've never heard of your first point before, interesting.

This was about 10 years ago so exact issue is a bit vague however I am wondering if perhaps it had something to do with the load ratings of the rear tyres?

 

[Beachball]

Yep that's a good suggestion. Just found a nice white one we're going to look at. The strange thing is that maybe I don't understand is that on Autotrader it states that minimum kerbweight is 1500kg and I thought the 85% calculation was based on that, so the caravan MTPLM should be a max of 1275kg. But if you select the car in towcar.info it bases the 85% calculation on a laiden weight of the car and says it's a fairly good match with our Xplore 586. Then shows the calculation as 77% with the caravan at 1370kg and the car at 1790kg. So I presume I can take that as an ok for the xtrail & the Xplore 586

If you go have a good look around the car check the condition inside and out and if you can take it out for a Test drive good luck to each its own .

 

[RogerL]

I've never heard of your first point before, interesting.

But your second point is quite common, Renault have used the same principle on several models, and I'm sure other manufacturers have done the same. The principle relies on the measured weight of the car + the measured weight of the trailer combined must not exceed the GTW of the tow vehicle.

I've seen some models where the max towed weight could be 300kg more than the tow vehicles GTW-GVW - essentially when the tow vehicle is in its kerbweight condition (obviously with the driver)

I've always thought that quoted towing weight NOT being equal to GTW-GVW is poor because it means that maximum towing weight isn't a constant but is reduced as more is loaded into the car.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I've always thought that quoted towing weight NOT being equal to GTW-GVW is poor because it means that maximum towing weight isn't a constant but is reduced as more is loaded into the car.

Quite so,

 

[Raywood]

I do have to agree that just adding the GTW and the towing limit is wrong, as you will never tow at exactly that. An overall figure that allows for some movement between the two is in theory better, but might confuse some people and it would need to be explained very clearly. There is enough confusion on weights as it is, as is demonstrated on here, so the car manufacturers may think the simple figure for the car and trailer is a safer option.

 

[caplimilan]

When you choose a new car, you don't care as much about performance as you do about affordability, do you? I think you should look at Toyota anyway. They have an extensive selection of car models. I've been buying a 2018 Camry for myself for several years, and I'm still satisfied. My wife and I were in a car accident, and we were lucky enough to have Moneyexpert.com insurance to cover all of our losses. I thought at the time that the car would no longer be salvageable, but the amount paid by the insurance company allowed us to make quality repairs, and my vehicle is fine

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm just about to choose my own transportation. This topic would be a great guide for me. Thank you all!

By all means post what your options are and we can bring our collective knowledge to bear, But I hope you taken away from this thread that a good match is not necessarily worked out on paper as a towing ratio, there are so many other sensible facts to take into account.