Help - Noseweight On New Van Too High

[Gavin1974]

Today we were meant to be picking up our new van a 2008 Ace Jubilee Aristocrat (MIRO 1254kg, MLTPM 1460kg). We tow with a 54 320d estate (kerb weight of 1580kg).

At the end of the hand over I asked the dealer to check the noseweight, with just two calor light bottles and a battery on board the noseweight was 95-100kg! The limit on my car is just 75kg.

The dealer and I checked our van and other vans of the same model on the forecourt, empty they came in about 75kg. Prior to the purchase swift over the phone stated the empty noseweight was 55kg.

The dealer (Barrons - who were great) has given us two options a full refund or take the van and play about with loading it carefully.

If we're starting with an empty noseweight of 75kg is it going to be possible to play around with it without taking things to extreme (and potentially dangerous state)?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Del_374232870]

It is surprising the difference between checking the nose weight of an empty van and a fully loaded van.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Gavin

That's a blow.

1. I assume the nose weight guage you are using is accurate? Daft , yes , but it has happened.

2. Have you tried just one gas cylinder in the locker?

3.95-100 kgs is high and beyond most average cars ability, except the 4x4. What does Kath Powell at Swift have to say.

4.I am not a great fan of trying to put heavier weights at the rear to lighten the nose. Swinging pendulums spring to mind.

There are some excellent posters who contribute regularly and may have some good ideas. I assume you don't want to change the car??

Cheers

Alan

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gavin,

It is very important to measure the nose weight correctly: The caravan must be level ground, the hitch must be at the same height as when it is connected to the car, and the weight gauge must by fitted into the ball socket. Only then will the actual nose weight be shown correctly. The correct nose weight is a legal requirement, so it is important to get it right.

If you are still heavy, then the nose weight must be reduced to bring it down to 75Kg or a little less. You can achieve this in one of two ways or a combination of the two.

Firstly is to reduce the number of heavy items loaded in front of the axle, then to add weight behind but as close to the axle as possible.

Don't forget, that taking a 10Kg mass from the front and placing at the back will actually change the nose weight by more than 10Kg the see-saw effect.

Most of us carry more than we should in the front locker. The gas bottles must be carried in the proper locations where they are secured and ventilated. Do not carry gas bottles anywhere else. If you have two bottles, why not just take one? The electric hook up cable is usually quite a heavy object - this could be stowed inside the caravan as can the jack handle, mallet for awning pegs, etc

I have yet to see a caravan that cannot be rearranged to achieve about a 75Kg nose weight.

 

[Hamer_5041128]

Gavin,

From looking at the layout of your Jubilee Aristocrat your wardrobe, loo and fixed bed are behind the axle. By the time you have filled the wardrobe, put some flush water in the loo and primed the loo, made up the bed and stored a few things under the bed i would expect your nose weight to be below 75kgs. People i know store their awning and poles under the bed nearest to the axle,not at the rear of the bed.Most of your storage capacity is behind the axle. Therefore just putting two full gas bottles and a battery in an empty cravan is giving you a totally unrealistic nose weight compared with the nose weight when the caravan is fully loaded.

Hamer

 

[Hamer_5041128]

Gavin,

Sorry forgot to say many people have nose weight problems towing a new caravan home, simply because of the situation you have described. Empty caravan, two full gas bottles and a battery, all at the front of the axle.

Hamer

 

[Colinn]

Hi Gavin, welcome to the world of modern day caravanning where so many people - manufacturers and dealers included - place great store on the MIRO with little regard to noseweight...

My previous high spec caravan had a huge noseweight UNLADEN - certainly in excess of 75k, which was my car's limit - and I had to go to great lengths to balance up. As you, say loading up the rear is not a palatable option.

Of course, you never find out until it is too late. You ascertain your car weight and the MIRO and go ahead and buy the van.

In my case, I had to remove the front-stored battery and couldn't carry anything in the front locker (not even one gas cylinder) to achieve something near 75k.

In my view, all caravans should clearly have their unladen noseweight stamped on them, as with the MIRO. It would at least alert you to a likely mismatch with your car.

Otherwise, it's a question of being very imaginative with spreading the load...not impossible, but a pain!!!

 

[Mel]

We have the same problem on our new swift challenger, which the dealer (also Barrons)happily hitched up to our car when we collected it, without a word. As complete novices it never occurred to us to check, assuming that cos the van was empty it was OK. Now we make sure most of the equipment is stowed in the van behind the axle and it balances up.

I wouldn't suggest the approach taken by a couple parked next to us with their van at strensham services recently. They had a large tall gas bottle on the back seat of the car secured by a seat belt!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colinn,

Whilst I agree it might be helpful if you had some idea of the nose weight of a caravan as it came off the production line, stamping it on the data plate would be totally meaningless, simply because the load the nose imposes on a tow ball varies according to the height of the tow ball, and it will change as soon as you start to load the caravan.

I do wonder if there might be some way for the ball hitch manufacturers to create a load measuring ball hitch, so you can easily check any outfit connected to the tug.

 

[trucker]

Gavin, we have the Vogue 495 Swift prduct n/s bed the same as yours I believe. We also had the nose weight problem so we put the lightweight chairs and the empty aquaroll water and waste under the bed, awning (even if we are not going to use it) in the middle of the van with 1 end level with the foot of the bed

and other stuff around it. We do not have anything more than a couple of feet fore of the axle and only 2 gas bottles and levelers in the front locker whilst travelling. This does the trick for us giving a nose weight of around 70-75 and we have towed through france and also through s/w England in faily strong winds 25 to 30 mph. and the outfit is very stable. We to with a Modeo estate tdci.

I hope this helps.

Kevin

 

[Colinn]

Hello Colinn,

Whilst I agree it might be helpful if you had some idea of the nose weight of a caravan as it came off the production line, stamping it on the data plate would be totally meaningless, simply because the load the nose imposes on a tow ball varies according to the height of the tow ball, and it will change as soon as you start to load the caravan.

I do wonder if there might be some way for the ball hitch manufacturers to create a load measuring ball hitch, so you can easily check any outfit connected to the tug.

Equally, you could argue that the MIRO is meaningless since we all load our vans differently. In fact, the MIRO gives you a starting point for working out whether your van will be compatible, and that could be the same for an ex-factory nose weight measured on a level surface.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colinn,

Yes for exactly the same reasons the MIRO is of little practical use. The ultimate arbiter is the MTPLM for the caravan, as this sets a measurable limit, and of course can affect the legality of matching to a tow vehicle.

 

[Colinn]

Hi John,

As we agree, the MIRO may be of little practical use, but at least it's there and is a guide. On the basis of the MIRO/MLTPM, people form a judgement as to whether their outfit is compatible. But there is a hidden catch. Most people make their judgements on the weight of their car, the MIRO and the MLTPM. They only find out - like me - about the noseweight problems when it is too late - and this could be avoided...

regards,

c.

 

[Tram]

Hi Gavin, are you sure there isn't an overlooked full tank of water on board too? 95kg noseweight is way over the top.

Our Bailey has a place for the spare wheel in the front locker but with it and two gas cylinders in we have a similar problem so we always carry it on the floor inside the 'van. (it's never been used so is very clean) it's a lot more accessible in an emergency too.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

95 kg noseweight is only achieved on our Ace Award Nightstar with great difficulty

The water heater and battery are both at the extreme front end and so it is necessary to carry the gas bottle etc in the car and load up under the now fixed rear bed

It does tow superbly having said that

The car has a tow ball limit of 100kg

A lot of modern vans seem to have a layout that suits assembly for a range of vans

Fixed island beds have no sidewalls so nothing can be fitted at the rear sides such as battery/water heater etc

Our van was the double dinette layout with seats down the sides at the rear but nothing is fitted through the sides and I think that this is to make assembly fit in line with the above island beds layout which is now more popular

I was told that ex works noseweight was 79kg but then a 100 amp hour battery sitting right at the front soon puts that well above 100kg

 

[RogerL]

Coachman's brochure quotes the ex-works hitch weight for each specific model - if they can do it, why can't all manufacturers?

 

[Lutz]

I have had a look at their brochure and found what they call 'Empty Nose Weight', but without a tolerance on the figures given, they are not very meaningful. It would be unreasonable to expect every ex-works noseweight to correspond exactly with the data given, so what variation can one expect?

 

[RogerL]

Although EN1645 specifies tolerances, MIRO are shown without in brochures.

+/-5% would be reasonable for ex-works noseweight.

 

[ProfJohnL]

For John Watson,

I must caution you against carrying gas bottles in cars. Part of the gas safety regulations require that bottles of gas must be only used and stored in a upright attitude, and the bottle must be secured during transit. So apart from being illegal there is a real safety issue.

The proper place is the purpose designed carrier in the caravan, which not only has a securing strap, but keeps the bottle upright, and most importantly provides the proper ventilation around the bottle to prevent pooling of gas vapour in the event of a leak.

If you carry a gas bottle In the cabin of a car then you are exposing yourself to a considerable danger of explosion. LPG only has to mix in a ration of of about 1 part gas to 9 parts air to create a viable explosive mixture. If we assume that the cabin of a car has a volume of about 3 cubic meters then you only need about 30 litres of gas vapour to for the mixture. 30 Litres of gas vapour at atmospheric pressure will be liberated by a leak of about 15ml (cc) of liquefied gas.

All it needs is a source of ignition - just consider how many electrical items there are in a car, radio, indicator relay, window winders, etc etc etc.

There would be enough energy in the volume of gas to cause severe burns to anyone in the car and possibly rip open the roof!

Find something else to move to rebalance your caravan.

 

[Mel]

95 kg noseweight is only achieved on our Ace Award Nightstar with great difficulty

The water heater and battery are both at the extreme front end and so it is necessary to carry the gas bottle etc in the car and load up under the now fixed rear bed

It does tow superbly having said that

The car has a tow ball limit of 100kg

A lot of modern vans seem to have a layout that suits assembly for a range of vans

Fixed island beds have no sidewalls so nothing can be fitted at the rear sides such as battery/water heater etc

Our van was the double dinette layout with seats down the sides at the rear but nothing is fitted through the sides and I think that this is to make assembly fit in line with the above island beds layout which is now more popular

I was told that ex works noseweight was 79kg but then a 100 amp hour battery sitting right at the front soon puts that well above 100kg

was that you parked next to us in strensham services on April 9th? I spotted the gas bottle.

mel

 

[BeatBeat]

John, I'm confused. I buy my new gas bottles from Calor. If I understand you right I'm breaking the law by taking the new bottle home in my car??

Trisha

 

[RogerL]

Trisha - as a private individual you're not breaking the law - you would be if carrying on any sort of trade.

It's not perfect but when I need an exchange I put the cylinder behind the passenger seat and wedge it in - using an old sheet to protect the leather!

 

[BeatBeat]

Thanks Roger.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

JohnL

Bottles carried upright and firm with tap securely off and seal in place

Thanks for the advice but do have some experience and common sense

First van was 45 years ago and no explosions as yet

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Trisha - as a private individual you're not breaking the law - you would be if carrying on any sort of trade.

It's not perfect but when I need an exchange I put the cylinder behind the passenger seat and wedge it in - using an old sheet to protect the leather!

I do ths with a black plastic bag over the top and the bottle wedged between the back of the drivers seat and the front of the rear seat.The driving seat is slid forward,bottle inserted and then seat slid hard back

Its solid