Hublock

[spj]

Hi all,

A lot has been said about wheelclamps and such devices on this forum lately with threads in this section and in Technical.

I looked on the Hublock website with interest and at other products but was not convinced, being a mechanic by trade and currently running a HGV workshop I was looking for ways that I know how I could remove such devices, every type of wheelclamp with no exceptions can be cut off with an oxy acetylene cutting torch in less than a minute, ground anchors have chains which can be cut in seconds hardened or not, and hitchlocks are overcome by towing your van away with a chain wrapped around the lock and 'a' frame. Tracking devices may get you your van back but wont stop it going and secure storage is expensive and not easily used for some.

All the Sold Secure awarded devices need to do to get the Gold award is stay on for 5 minutes which most thieves will be happy to spend 5 minutes to steal your van, but this is not good enough as I dont think they use cutting torches to test them as they would not last 60 seconds.

Today I went to see the Hublock in the flesh, and the web site pictures do it no justice, this lock is superb, I went unconvinced this unit would be any good, but I can honestly say I dont think a caravan with one of these fitted could be towed away inside 3-4 hours or 6-8 hours for a twin axle with two fitted and this is with specialist equipment and a very skilled user who has done it before, but they may not be removable by this method anyway. I am that convinced of this products ability that I will be buying a pair for my van.

This is not an advertisment for this product, just my honest opinion on it having seen it for myself and as I do have an engineering background, I have never had a caravan stolen and only you who have know what that feels like and this is the only product I have seen that I would have faith in to stop my van going. Nothing is impossible to overcome but this will take hours to remove and may leave the caravan unable to move anyway, so the thieves will move to an easier target and you may have some damage but you will also have your van.

Picking at the features of this device wont get you anywhere, all my doubts were cured when I had seen it, if you have any doubts ring Kenneth and if possible go and see the lock, it wont be a waste of your time.

 

[Guest]

SPJ

As you are so impressed with the Hublock maybe you can explain that apart from the construction and material used in the Hublock that renders it toch proof in that the heat would damage the hubs. Is the Hublock not locked on by four screw on security bolts be it that they may be in a restricted opening that requires a key to undo them or is there some other locking device.

The natural assumption is that someone is going to attack the Hublock with some heavy weight tools. That is not the way it could be removed with no damage to the locks body or caravan!

 

[spj]

euro,

the Hublock is held on by 4 hardened wheel bolts, these are set around an inch deep in a hole that only just clears them, any attempt to burn or weld to them damages or blocks the holes and makes removal more difficult. The Hublock is a big lump of steel which to burn off will take a long time as a cutting torch has to get the area red hot before cutting can take place, and as it is bolted to the brake drum which contains the wheel bearings, the heat transferred destroys the bearings.

I have removed many locking wheel bolts by various methods, but none would remove these as access is very tight and the bolts have smaller heads than I have seen before. The tools on the market made for removal of these type of bolts have all been tested and failed, this device has had a lot of thought put into it and as said before, I dont believe anything is impossible to steal, but this will make it very time consuming and difficult which will make most thieves look elsewhere.

As previously posted, ring Kenneth if you have any doubts, you have not seen it and I have, and I posted my opinion which you can take or leave. If caravan theft can be reduced it will benefit us all in lower insurance premiums etc and I beieve Hublocks can help.

spj

 

[Guest]

spj

Apart from a way of removing the bolts that would not even damage the hublock or leave a merk on it. An internet search provides a quick sure fire way of removing the hub Hublock. I would guess that if the hublock gets a good market share the theives will alter their approach to meet the challenge.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

I have posted this before.

the locking wheel bolts used on the Hublock look identical to those fitted by Ford and I know from experience that these can be removed very easily using tools found in any mechanics toolbox.

Brian

 

[Guest]

From what I gather the Hublock has the bolts set in deeper holes with a resticted opening that is supposed to prevent purpose made locking bolt removal tools being used.

Why they think every thief is going to try and burn the thing off I have no idea, there is no need.It doesn't matter how deep the setting or how restricted the radius, if you can see the head of the lug bolt it can be removed quite quickly and easily without noise or with a limited amount of noise.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

I know Ford dealers will charge thru' the nose to removed bolts for people who have lost their key. Reality is the bolts are normally off before the customer has sat down to drink their tea.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

euro

"Hublock has the bolts set in deeper holes with a resticted opening that is supposed to prevent purpose made locking bolt removal tools being used."

If the proper key fits what makes them think nothing else will?

Brian (",)

 

[Guest]

Brian.

I'm with you 100% on this one.

A retired relative used to drill holes in special military armour plating,the bolts would be very easy.

You just need a bit of lateral thought and others will have a variety of ways of popping the bolts out.

It will be a stopper for a while and then the ignorant scumbags will not be quite so ignorant ;-)

 

[BrianStAlbans]

I wouldn't trust anything that relied on a locking wheelbolt as I know they are very easy to remove.

Having had a caravan stolen I also know that a very heavy duty wheel clamp can be twisted off with ease. They even left me the scaffold pole they used to do it.

I now fit 4 different wheelclamps, leglocks,hitchlock,a ground anchor and have a tracker fitted along with microchips, microdots ,locked gates ,2 Bulldog posts and 3 cameras.

Will all this stop it being stolen again..No of course it wont, but it will keep them busy for a long,long time ,something that a thief will not want.

Brian

 

[Viking1]

What stop a theft get a crane and lift the caravan on to a low trailer and take it to a work shop. Were he can work on it with no risk of get court

Before you say it someone mite see him.

A lot of big stone art work is nick in this way.

Mark

 

[spj]

Hi all,

the Hublock locking bolts are deep in a hole that will not allow a socket to be hammered on which is the normal method of removal by mechanics, me or all the mechanics I have worked with in nearly 20 years in the motor trade have any tools which will remove these bolts with ease. euro, have you seen this device yet or are you still guessing from the deliberatly unclear pictures? brian, obviously you have seen it as you seem to think you know the exact lock bolt type, although I am sure you are wrong and in this application they are impossible to remove by hammering a socket on. The point of this lock is to make it harder to steal the caravan, it will take a long time to remove with any equipment, I dont believe it impossible to get off eventually but it will take much longer to remove than any wheelclamp, mule, hitchlock combination on the market.

I fully agree that locking wheel nuts / bolts on car wheels are easy to remove with simple equipment, they give plenty of room to work or hammer on a socket, I have removed many myself with no trouble, but this device has been thought out very well, the more complex tools made for this job have been sought and tested during the design of the Hublock so they will not work.

A car wheel has 1 locking bolt per wheel, the Hublock has 4, so a twin axle with two Hublocks fitted has 8 bolts to overcome, and if you see it in the flesh you will see there is more to it than you think, I had many doubts before I had seen it but none now.

spj

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Hi spj, I've only seen it on the website which must show the bolts not fully tightened . What worries me is if there is room to fit the key onto the nut, which there obviously has to be ,it will also be possible to fit something the same size, be it a socket or metal tube of some discription onto the nut as well. As with car bolts as long as you can get a good purchase on the nut it will come off.

Agree that the time factor is the important part as said in my post above and knowing how easy a conventional clamp is to remove (seconds) this can only be an improvement.

Brian (",)

 

[Guest]

Ok spj.

with your experience, take an engine cylinder and head with studs that go down through the head and cylinder and are loctited into the engine block.

One stud snaps near the bottom end, hardened and to deep to attempt to drill and get out, plus with the engine in situe access is a problem.

So engine strip down to remove the remains of the stud ?

No, the removal process takes about ten minutes to set up and you could do four in that time and then a simple wrench to unscrew the offending part.

No need to even see the offending part and no room for any tools that you would probably consider using.

The type of product used was not meant for the sort of use of removing studs or security bolts but people using the product and people involved its manufacturing use have found it has other applications !

 

[spj]

euro,

removal of studs in your or any example would be done as follows;

1, remove the cylinder head

2, use vice grips to wind out the remaining stud or if it is broken flush it would need drilling in the centre with a small drill bit after centre punching it, this would be done as verically as possible to reduce the risk of going off centre, and then followed by a slightly larger drill bit until a stud extractor can be inserted and the stud normally comes out. If it is locktighted it may need a little heat to release the threadlock or more likely would need drilling out and the thread retapping, and these type of studs are not hardened anyway.

If the drill goes off centre the stud extractor can foul in the threads and wont work, if a stud is broken there is no load on it and so will come out with an extractor unless siezed, the Hublock bolts are like wheel bolts and are under load therefore tight and without releasing this load a stud extractor will not work.

The Hublock bolts are also hardened and so drilling out other than with specialist drill bits in a pillar drill will be impossible which when on a caravan is very secure. To try and drill 4 bolts of this material with a cordless drill would be a lost cause. And to drill sraight 4 times would be even harder, with the right drill bits and equipment it could be removed eventually, but most thefts are carried out very quickly.

Brian,

there is no room to get a socket over the bolts, in testing a tube was welded onto the bolts, but the depth of them only allowed a weld of approx 5mm in diameter and of poor quality, this was found incapable of holding and removing the m12 bolts and broke off every time. An m5 bolt would break well before 65lbs/ft is put on it.

The key is a laser cut hardened unit similar to many locking wheelnuts but when fitted to a car wheel has plenty of room around it to hammer a socket on, but on the Hublock it does not.

If you look at these type of locking bolts the keys all look similar but will not fit any other bolts as the laser cut track is very thin and very complex, the only sockets that will remove them are 12 point standard sockets which need to be hammered on to grip the bolt head and these will not fit in a Hublock bolt hole.

I could overcome any caravan security device I have seen with the right equipment in a matter of minuites and I am no thief, the Hublock would take me a good few hours and removal my even immobilise the caravan anyway.

 

[Guest]

spj

I made the point, that you have missed.

I'm well aware of stud extractors and the normal way of stripping engine and all it involves. And I have done the job on engines myself.

I described the stud and engine because if you know what to use from the right source you can remove the studs in the engine with out stripping it down and without even being able to see them at the bottom of the cylinder block.

The Hublock bolts will come out the same way without hammering or drilling and within a few minutes as described and with no noise or great heat or with any kind of torch.

The problem with the Hublock is that its good, but has no actual locking process in the aplication. You can see the head of what is basicly a bolt that screws in and out. These days you don't need to damage the security bolts head. You can just unscrew the things with something that does not come from a workshop tool kit. You can make the head of the bolt from the hardened security bolt head equivalent of Chobham armour with the best key imaginable, but you can still undo it as the bolt is not actually a LOCK.

 

[spj]

euro,

what is this tool?

It sounds wonderful, "you can remove the studs in the engine with out stripping it down and without even being able to see them at the bottom of the cylinder block. The Hublock bolts will come out the same way without hammering or drilling and within a few minutes as described and with no noise or great heat or with any kind of torch"

If a stud or bolt can not even be seen then a tool that can remove it is a real breakthrough, where can I buy one from?

I have worked for BMW, Ford, Toyota, Landrover, ERF, M.A.N and Cummins diesel and none were aware of this wonderful tool you speak of.

All the times I have seen cylinder heads removed to access broken manifold studs and gearboxes removed to access broken bell housing bolts could have been avoided had I known of this tool. Also any wheelclamp or hitchlock etc with a lock [key type] can be removed in seconds, I dont see the Hublock bolts as a weakness apart from to this tool only you seem to know about.

spj.

 

[hublock]

I wouldn't trust anything that relied on a locking wheelbolt as I know they are very easy to remove.

Having had a caravan stolen I also know that a very heavy duty wheel clamp can be twisted off with ease. They even left me the scaffold pole they used to do it.

I now fit 4 different wheelclamps, leglocks,hitchlock,a ground anchor and have a tracker fitted along with microchips, microdots ,locked gates ,2 Bulldog posts and 3 cameras.

Will all this stop it being stolen again..No of course it wont, but it will keep them busy for a long,long time ,something that a thief will not want.

Brian

Hello Brian,

Seriously it would take less than 10 minutes.

For your interest, look at the posting on the Caravan Talk forum,(jackingaz).

She has had two caravans stolen in 18 months with similar security to your own.

 

[hublock]

SPJ

I dont know if you understand what EURO is referring to, I think it may be spark errosion or metal disintigration equipment.

EURO

SPJ didn't believe the Hub Lock would work but he accepted my invitation to call me.

Having now also seen it, he undertands why it is secure and why the security bolts cannot be removed. Being an experienced auto mechanic and workshop manager he should know what he is talking about.

I like SPJ, still wait to hear what tool or piece of equipment you refer to, what power source and at what cost?

Brian (st albans)

You did say on two occasions that you can remove the locking bolts very easily. On a car you can, just like any motor mechanic or tyre fitter.

You will not remove them from the Hublock and I did ask you to call me on two occasions so I could explain why.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if you give advice to other forum users you should first take up my offer to explain as SPJ and MONKEY did. MONKEY was also sceptical but called me and accepted the reasoning, even though he hasn't yet seen it in the metal. I'm sure if he see's it he will be further convinced.

Brian you seem to have spent a lot of money on security after having had a caravan stolen, perhaps you should take notice of SPJ and MONKEY who both did call me.

I dont mind you putting your comments on the forum, be they good or bad, as long as they are informed comments.

There are plenty of postings asking for advice on security and I believe I have a right to respond if your comments are incorrect. Negative comments that are correct are no problem.

With respect and with best regards,

Ken Johnson

 

[BigRoy]

Morning Ken, Looking at the hublock on the website and assuming that it is bolted on using key type locking wheel nuts (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I believe I could remove it in less than five minutes.

My back ground is in engineering and the bolts that clamp it on to the hub could be removed easily using a simple fuse welding technique (using a normal arc welder) that we use to remove thrust bearing outer races in gear boxes which are inaccessible and you can't get behind to knock them out.

Can I just add that this method has not been tested on the hublock and is my own opinion.

 

[hublock]

Hello Big Roy,

We have tried welding onto the heads of the bolts but this failed.

Tests were carried out by an engineer with 40 years plus experience. In fact all the engineers at two Engineering companies were given opportunities to try to remove the bolts, all failed.

The Stihl saw took 3.5 hours spread over two days, and was far from easy and extremely noisy.

We have shown our tests to a BOC demonstrator who tests safes for customers, he spent 40 minutes and said he was looking for problems and could not find any. He confirmed it is an excellent product.

Perhaps if you saw the device you may be convinced, as was SPJ when he came to see it.

If you are interested in the device (please call me) and we will arrange for you to carry out your own tests.

01924 278338

I understand these are your opinions, no problem, but I am sure we can change your opinion.

After you try it you are welcome to put your opinions on the forum. GOOD OR BAD.

We are trying to raise levels of security having had our own caravan stolen. Isn't this what caravan owners want ?

Regards,

Ken Johnson

 

[SteveW77]

As a retired motor mechanic, I would like to know what this wonder tool is and ask why didn't they invent the bl**dy thing while I was still working,as it would have saved many a miserable hour dismantling engines and gaerboxes to remove brocken bolts and studs.

Steve W

 

[BigRoy]

Steve there is no wonder tool, my method just requires a trick bit of welding which would not be suitable for broken studs deep is an an engine casing.

The method I would use would involve making a special tool for the bolt removal and for that reason alone I think that a thief would move onto another caravan.

No matter how many Sold Secure awards a clamp has won or how expensive or tough it is every one of them can be cut off in seconds with oxy acetylene except the Hublock which for that reason I believe it's the best on the market.

 

[hublock]

Hello Big Roy,

I think Steve W is referring to the "wonder tool" that EURO referred to, both SPJ and myself are waiting for this info.

Do a search on stud removal and you will get spark errosion and metal defragmentation. Perhaps this is what EURO found, but I believe we are moving into "star war territory" and it is unlikely thieves would consider this when an oxyacetylene torch can achieve the required results in less than 30 seconds.

I have discussed the trick welding method you mentioned (which is very clever) and we will carry out tests using this method in a couple of weeks. Our "opinion" is that we will achieve a weld but that it will not hold when applying the 88Nm torque required to remove the bolts. This has to be repeated succesfully four times on each disc, requires a welding plant and a portable generator. Time will be 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour.

If you are able to do the test I will supply the Hub Lock and security bolts, otherwise I will give you the results of our own tests which you are welcome to post on the Forum GOOD OR BAD.

Regards,

Ken Johnson

 

[spj]

Hi all,

it has now been over a month since euro last mentioned his 'wonder tool' that is quiet and uses no heat, I wonder why?

So the engineering and motor trade will continue to struggle with broken studs and bolts and thieves will still not be able to remove the Hublock.

I read Big Roys comments with interest, at least he has given an educated opinion from a skilled background, but with respect Roy the depth of the Hublock bolts and the diameter of the hole would only allow a small diameter weld to apply which would remove a stud or bolt with no load on it. The difference with the Hublock bolts is that they are under load at 65lbs-ft, to get a weld of such a small diameter to withstand 65lbs-ft of torsional load in my opinion is impossible. Bear in mind that this method would need to be carried out four times per Hublock, at ground level, under pressure of bieng seen, with portable equipment and twice over for a twin axle then I cant see many thieves attacking a van so hard to steal, they will move to an easy target with a wheelclamp that can be cut off quietly in seconds.

It is nice to read comments from people who know what they are on about, rather than negative misimformed comments of people who think they know it all and in fact know nothing.

spj.