Insurance and the 85% rule

[Lutz]

You keep going around in circles Lutz, look at the word: Anti Lock Braking System:Sensors monitor the wheels, when they see no movement, pulses the brake on and off,to reduce the possibility of a skid. But as previously stated stay with the subject matter, and supply the proof to back up your statement of a shorter stopping distance towing a caravan, than opposed to a solo car.

Allan.

Load proportioning is part of any ABS system. A relatively simple load proportioning system for caravans would improve their braking performance almost as much as ABS but we are talking here about current conditions where neither the one nor the other is fitted.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

As I have proved and endorsed by Rospa when weight is increased so is the stopping distance for any combination(The Debate) of vehicle.(or will you argue the point with Rospa or re write Newton's theory Lutz)

"If you don't believe me, nor what Brian (St. Albans) nor what Richard S have confirmed"

Correct me if I am wrong, they have confirmed nothing other than thinking that they read it in an undisclosed magazine, with 0 details, unless you have all the evidence to hand to back up any theory, then do not make the statement in the first instance.

Nothing to adjourn for. Subject closed.

Allan.

 

[cris_408518]

This all sound very good, but the great ability re braking and ABS is being able to control the car and steer. So you swerve with out skidding in esssence or give better contol on a wet road.

Swerving or rapid changes in steering direction go against all advice when towing a caravan.

With no data for either argument I can accept that an ABS equipped car towing a caravan could stop quicker in a straight line on a good dry road.

If you brake hard enough to need ABS assistance will you be going in a straight line and on a dry ideal surface?

If their is evidence to support an ABS car/caravan rig stops quicker in all conditions that is one thing. If there are limitations I doubt that many caravan drivers will have the time to work out the road conditions angle of lean or curvature of a bend of road surface moisture levels if they need to really hit the brakes hard.

 

[Lutz]

What weight has increased? In the one case you have a fully laden car stopping under its own braking power. In the other you have the same fully laden car also stopping under its own braking power and a caravan stopping under its own brakes, i.e. two close coupled vehicles, both being braked by their own brakes. That they happen to be connected is incidental except for a small force necessary to operate the overrun brake, and for the weight transfer, which, however, doesn't add weight, it only transfers it.

 

[JTQ]

I think its a "force" thats transfered!

 

[Lutz]

This all sound very good, but the great ability re braking and ABS is being able to control the car and steer. So you swerve with out skidding in esssence or give better contol on a wet road.

Swerving or rapid changes in steering direction go against all advice when towing a caravan.

With no data for either argument I can accept that an ABS equipped car towing a caravan could stop quicker in a straight line on a good dry road.

If you brake hard enough to need ABS assistance will you be going in a straight line and on a dry ideal surface?

If their is evidence to support an ABS car/caravan rig stops quicker in all conditions that is one thing. If there are limitations I doubt that many caravan drivers will have the time to work out the road conditions angle of lean or curvature of a bend of road surface moisture levels if they need to really hit the brakes hard.

ABS is primarily to assist braking in a straight line. It is only this case that I have been talking about. Don't let's start complicating matters by discussing what happens when you try to brake while towing a caravan and at the same time turning a corner. Too many variables enter into the equation then (polar moment of inertia of the car and of the caravan, slip angle of both the car's and the caravan's tyres, just to name a couple).

 

[Lutz]

I think its a "force" thats transfered!

Right, but I don't want to start splitting definitions.

 

[Lutz]

This all sound very good, but the great ability re braking and ABS is being able to control the car and steer. So you swerve with out skidding in esssence or give better contol on a wet road.

Swerving or rapid changes in steering direction go against all advice when towing a caravan.

With no data for either argument I can accept that an ABS equipped car towing a caravan could stop quicker in a straight line on a good dry road.

If you brake hard enough to need ABS assistance will you be going in a straight line and on a dry ideal surface?

If their is evidence to support an ABS car/caravan rig stops quicker in all conditions that is one thing. If there are limitations I doubt that many caravan drivers will have the time to work out the road conditions angle of lean or curvature of a bend of road surface moisture levels if they need to really hit the brakes hard.

If we can't agree what happens in a straight line, what hope have we of agreeing on what happens when negotiating a corner?

 

[nick_374224697]

I just wanted to be the 100th person to post on this topic.....

 

[cris_408518]

At the end of the day most of the time when you apply the brakes you are avoiding an accident.

Well if you don't use the brakes you either crawl along or hit something.

There must be many factors that come into force when you start hard or emergency braking with a caravan in tow campered to driving solo.

A cars suspension and regular braking system is somewhat more sophisticated than the caravan it's towing apart from anything else.

If we expect some text book formula sittuation every time we apply the tow vehicles brakes I think we'll be a little dissapointed.

Jack knifing in a variety of tow vehicles is quite common, or does that only happen with faulty brakes ?

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

I once again refer back to the findings of Rospa, a laden articulated vehicle takes a further 10mtrs to stop than it's unladen counterpart, and remember one important fact, the hgv was designed for the job it is doing, our cars are not, they were primarily designed to cope with there own weight. To take it one step further, different tow cars will produce varying stopping distances, so it is incorrect to make a blanket statement that "It is a proven fact that braking distance is actually shorter when towing a trailer than when the car is solo (on condition that both the car's brakes and those of the caravan are properly adjusted and maintained). " they all have different brake set up's, suspension, tyres for instance, hard compound, soft compound, low profile, budget, remold,, they all have an effect on braking distances, some vehicles cope well with towing, others not quite so well, and the biggest factor in this important role is the Driver. So no matter who is right or who is wrong, can't we all agree that it makes damn good sense to allow for a greater stopping distance, along with all the other changed characteristics when we tow our caravans.

 

[trucker]

Allan, you are very good at repeting what others have written so let me have a go.

Facts please,under what conditions, etc to back your theory,if you are going to have a debate then please pre arm yourself with all the relevent facts, not third hand information that no one seems able to substantiate.

Where are your facts as you posted below they are not your facts they are Rospa, at least 2nd hand info, arm yourself please before the debate.

I have posted my facts as proven by Rospa, and if needs be there is a whole welth of information that I could post on the subject, but I wont, as far as I am cocerned this subject is closed

Kevin H

Oh and your last bit "subject closed", so why are you still debating it ???

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Point taken Kevin, and my apologies.

Allan.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Allan, you are very good at repeting what others have written so let me have a go.

Facts please,under what conditions, etc to back your theory,if you are going to have a debate then please pre arm yourself with all the relevent facts, not third hand information that no one seems able to substantiate.

Where are your facts as you posted below they are not your facts they are Rospa, at least 2nd hand info, arm yourself please before the debate.

I have posted my facts as proven by Rospa, and if needs be there is a whole welth of information that I could post on the subject, but I wont, as far as I am cocerned this subject is closed

Kevin H

Oh and your last bit "subject closed", so why are you still debating it ???

Kevin it is called researching your facts, it's what's most people do when they feel strongly about something they believe is wrong. So yes the rospa information is second hand to me. Better than just jumping in with a quote.

 

[trucker]

Allan, you are very good at repeting what others have written so let me have a go.

Facts please,under what conditions, etc to back your theory,if you are going to have a debate then please pre arm yourself with all the relevent facts, not third hand information that no one seems able to substantiate.

Where are your facts as you posted below they are not your facts they are Rospa, at least 2nd hand info, arm yourself please before the debate.

I have posted my facts as proven by Rospa, and if needs be there is a whole welth of information that I could post on the subject, but I wont, as far as I am cocerned this subject is closed

Kevin H

Oh and your last bit "subject closed", so why are you still debating it ???

Allan, I quote from Lutz

As I said, I'm not at home at present so I don't have access to the article but Brian (St. Albans) has confirmed the result

Lutz has got some research of his own if you would only let him get it

 

[trucker]

Allan, I quote from Lutz

As I said, I'm not at home at present so I don't have access to the article but Brian (St. Albans) has confirmed the result

Lutz has got some research of his own if you would only let him get it

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Once again Kevin point taken, I will continue to do as I have for many years and presume that my outfit will take a greater distance to stop than what it would do with a solo car, what others do is entirely there choice.

Subject closed as it is now starting to border on childish/ridiculous, is it any wonder the media slate us.

Allan.

 

[MikeP]

No, the subject cannot be closed. Lutz surely has the right to substantiate his comments with evidence, and since he is not at home you will have to wait for him to produce the evidence. That is common courtesy - you have issued a challenge and Lutz must be able to respond.

 

[Berty3]

Must agree with Allan on this one, sound comon sense advice for the following reasons : Brakes: Most caravans and trailers these days have brakes, smaller ones may not, but usually as long as you matched your tow car right, they don't need them. However, don't be mislead, the brakes on caravans etc, are 'over-run' brakes. I.e., they are designed to slow it down, NOT stop it. Usually the brakes are of drum type, like those found on the back wheels of most cars. They are operated by the tow hitch, as the car slows down the caravan pushes against the tow bar, the hitch has a hydraulic (usually) ram in it and as the caravan pushes it pushes the ram in which in turn, applies the brakes. Their main function is to help stop the caravan running away with you, and keeps it at the cars speed as well as assist the cars brakes in stopping. However in an emergency they are almost ineffective and you are mainly relying on your cars brakes.

So when towing, you have to allow yourself twice the stopping distance, and follow other cars twice as far behind, because no matter how fast you can apply the brakes, or what fancy electronics you have on your car, you are going to need at least twice the stopping distance.

 

[emmerson2]

Must agree with Allan on this one, sound comon sense advice for the following reasons : Brakes: Most caravans and trailers these days have brakes, smaller ones may not, but usually as long as you matched your tow car right, they don't need them. However, don't be mislead, the brakes on caravans etc, are 'over-run' brakes. I.e., they are designed to slow it down, NOT stop it. Usually the brakes are of drum type, like those found on the back wheels of most cars. They are operated by the tow hitch, as the car slows down the caravan pushes against the tow bar, the hitch has a hydraulic (usually) ram in it and as the caravan pushes it pushes the ram in which in turn, applies the brakes. Their main function is to help stop the caravan running away with you, and keeps it at the cars speed as well as assist the cars brakes in stopping. However in an emergency they are almost ineffective and you are mainly relying on your cars brakes.

So when towing, you have to allow yourself twice the stopping distance, and follow other cars twice as far behind, because no matter how fast you can apply the brakes, or what fancy electronics you have on your car, you are going to need at least twice the stopping distance.

Well, I must have different brakes to yours, Berty, cos if I brake hard, my caravan brakes will lock the wheels, Even just slowing for roundabouts, I can feel the van brakes doing their job. I'd respectfully suggest that yours are a little under par!!

 

[MikeP]

Berty - if you read the whole thread, you'll see that your experience doesn't fit in with the norm.

If your caravan brakes are properly adjusted, when you apply your car brakes you should feel a gentle bump through the rear of the car. A big clonk means that adjustment is needed! You might not even notice it. But you should feel something akin to a slight backwards pull. The only thing I can compare it to is walking along and someone tugging on the back of your coat. This is the caravan brakes doing their job correctly.

The ferocity of car braking does, to an extent, influence the degree of application of the caravan brakes. The mechanism is a bit crude, but it works fine if it is adjusted correctly. In the simplest terms, brake gently and the caravan does the same. Do an emergency stop and the caravan brakes will be fully applied if correctly adjusted.

Double the braking distance? Caravan brakes ineffective? The car brakes doing all the work? Er, no.

 

[Berty3]

Theres nowt on the telly so I have just done a search on the tinternet and I cant find any information to suggest that braking with your caravan makes the stopping distance shorter. They all say the opposite that it will increase the distance, Eastenders is rubbish at the moment so I will see if I can find owt else out.

Berty.

 

[MikeP]

While you've got time on your hands, do you need to book your caravan for a service and to have the brakes checked out?

 

[Berty3]

Can't find anything to suggest reduced braking distances towing a trailer, they all state this

RAC: You will need to be aware that the vehicle and trailer will take longer to stop, accelerate and turn than a vehicle on its own.

AA, say the same

Caravan club, gives the same advice

Camping and caravanning, just the same like leave a bigger gap

Don't seem to be able to find one single article that says that braking distances will be shorter.

Will have a look again tomorrow, so much information on this www it's mind boggling.

Bert.

 

[Berty3]

No mate it's only 5 months old.