Is diesel dirty?

[LizziePope]

You've seen the headlines, now Practical Caravan's David Motton looks at whether diesel really still rules, or if you should consider buying petrol when choosing what tow car to buy next. Please click here to read more.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Quote from article: "The company found that a Volkswagen Golf 1.4 TSI petrol with 148bhp achieved 39.4mpg. The equivalent 2.0-litre diesel with the same power output achieved 49.6mpg. That's enough to save the diesel driver just under £800 over 30,000 miles of driving. The more you drive, the more you'll save."

Did the cost saving account for the fact that diesel costs significantly more than petrol per litre at the pump?

 

[Martin24]

We are low mileage with our old lump of a 2.5 twin turbo diesel Isuzu. Certainly not getting any fuel savings by having one. All fossil fuels pump out muck so I'm not changing on that argument. All our tow cars throughout my childhood were petrol and certainly up to the job. I personally prefer driving a car with a petrol engine. The only reason we have a diesel tow car is that Isuzu D-Max only comes in diesel, in our country anyway. Mrs B prefers to drive a stinky ole diesel for some unknown reason (proper engine she says) but I managed to get her onto petrol this time round. :cheer:

 

[camel]

I don't think Diesel is any dirtier than all the wood burning stoves in my neighbourhood or the hundreds of coal burning power stations in the EU, Asia and China and also in US, so why pick on the Diesel all the time,

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Cash cow? Easy pickings?

 

[Dodger524]

A balanced article that sums up the current situation quiet succinctly.

Micro soot from petrol engines is the next target.

 

[Dustydog]

No comment has been made about buses coaches lorries and railway engines or are they exempt

 

[Raywood]

We have just bought a petrol Mazda 6. On looking at the market I found very few decent sized petrol engines and the cars tended to be lighter too. As someone who advocates having the tow car as heavy as possible it is a bit of a u turn but I am still just under 90%. The cars weight rather than towing capacity might limit us in future if we want to change the caravan though.
The car is still very stiff but the computer is showing 40.9 mpg at the moment although I have not put in enough fuel to really check the accuracy but the last Mazda was pretty accurate so it looks quite good. The previous diesel did about 44 in normal driving as a comparison.
We only got the towbar fitted yesterday so have not towed with it yet but have sites booked and will see how it goes.
Frankly I am not convinced by the attacks on diesels but their future looks uncertain so time will tell if we are correct.

 

[otherclive]

Well reluctantly I have just changed back to diesel as the 2.0Litre non turbo Forester revved far too high for my liking. It wasn't bought as a tow car as three years ago we decided to give up caravanning and sold the XC70 D5 and bought the Forester. Then when we decided to buy another caravan we bought one (1300kg MTPLM) which should have been well within the Subaru's towing capability. But on a trip to the New Forest and back it was stable but just lacked the power to tow without seeing the engine revs rise up, and stay high when in steady cruise. It wasn't relaxed tow and although the car still had two more years of powertrain warranty left I decided to go back to diesel as Subaru dealers wanted silly money for the Forester XT which would have had the low down torque required for towing. So I bought 170PS Skoda Superb and we had just arrived back from a week on Dartmoor with the van and car well laden dogs and granddaughter, roof box etc. The Subaru did around 22mpg on its trip to the New Forest with a light outfit and no roof box. The Superb did 30mpg and was only at 1600-1700 rpm at 60mph on the motorway. So I am very pleased with the change but accept that diesels are considered more polluting than petrols, but be aware that the figure of 40000 premature deaths that is bandied about is not true. The researcher has said that figure is 40000 equivalent deaths which when apportioned over the UK population leads to someone who may live till 80, actually only living to 79 and 11 months. I can live with not going into cities, as I live only 12 miles from Bath and have been there twice in the last three years. Too many darned tourists!!

 

[HNB]

This is just another money making scheme by the government! Pick on the poor motorists!!!

This scrapage scheme that they will offer will be stupid aswell, will not be of benifit to alot of people...like me for example...

I got my car on finance last year, with a view that ticked every box needed for my requirement...now how will the government compensate me and costs to get into a suitable petrol? they wont, thats the thing...

And on another note....i can no find a car that ticks all the boxes...

i need 7 seater, nice powerfull enough engine for the towing with some sporty looks.

only thing i find that ticks them boxes is the ford s max titanium x sport 2.0 ecoboost, but they only do it in bloody auto...

next would be a 1.5 ecoboost but they only do a titanium (1 without the kit) and the engine worries me it would struggle towing...

looks like i am going to have to wait to see what them idiots say next about it all

 

[emmerson]

Forget the dirty horrible slimy smelly stuff! Get sensible, go LPG. Half price and virtually zero emissions!

 

[Woodentop]

It is my belief much of the problem lies in people who don't have a clue what the issues are spouting out to a non-understanding and fearful public who like to think themselves slightly 'green.' Many of these are 'meeja' types who write on technical subjects with no technical understanding whatsoever.

Any diesel car compliant with Euro4 or later (i.e. about 2009) will have a DPF fitted as standard, so it is the older vehicles that cause much of the problem. There is also worry about oxides of Nitrogen - but 79% of the air we breathe is Nitrogen!

I feel that before HMG start bashing the modern diesel car driver they should look at other causes of pollution of which I suggest:-
any diesel car older than 10 years
older buses and coaches
older lorries and vans
construction site plant especially diesel generators that are often running 24/7
agricultural vehicles many of which are old and few of which comply with Euro-anything
diesel trains - especially the older ones based on buses - that should have been scrapped years ago

It does beg the question what happens to overseas vehicles that come to the UK on holiday?

Germany have a good idea - a vignette that shows your vehicle emission class which then defines where you can and cannot go.

Or the French idea where every diesel has a class (again on a vignette) and then limit which class of vehicle is allowed into areas as pollution levels change.

Both of these vignettes are cheap and do not require a vehicle test. The German badge costs €6 and the French one costs under €5 including delivery. Of course if we had such in the UK it would probably cost £20+ per year and require an emissions test to get it.

D'oh!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I don't think Diesel is any dirtier than all the wood burning stoves in my neighbourhood or the hundreds of coal burning power stations in the EU, Asia and China and also in US, so why pick on the Diesel all the time,

The fact the article looked at the relative pollutants of diesel and petrol engines is not "picking" on Diesel as you put it. Its a legitimate question in the context of choosing a towing vehicle. :huh:

I have yet to see a wood or coal burning tow car. :lol:

P.s. Traction engines are not cars! :lol:

 

[Hutch]

Prof, have you never been to a steam engine rally.

 

[Hutch]

Picky Prof, Just wondering , what sort of torgue the Hydrogen Ful cell cars will produce, the big makers are investing including GM to then US army. But the refuelling stations aren oo expensive to instal at present.

 

[woodsieboy]

Diesels are already taxed at different rates based on emissions, my objection to over charging to use dirty vehicles is that it does nothing to solve the pollution problem it just says if you can pay you can pollute, and what happens to brake and tyre dust that all vehicles produce, even electric ones, that must be breathed in by pedestrians and cyclists along with other pollutants, an din 6 years time they will change their minds again and decide something else is causing the end of the world

 

[camel]

Prof,
Why all of a sudden is Diesel being looked at and compared to Petrol to see which gives off the most pollutants, I could have saved the people or who ever commissioned the report their money, just stand in a Haulage yard at four-o-clock in the morning surrounded by Lorriies ticking over and you have the answer,

 

[otherclive]

It is my belief much of the problem lies in people who don't have a clue what the issues are spouting out to a non-understanding and fearful public who like to think themselves slightly 'green.' Many of these are 'meeja' types who write on technical subjects with no technical understanding whatsoever.

Any diesel car compliant with Euro4 or later (i.e. about 2009) will have a DPF fitted as standard, so it is the older vehicles that cause much of the problem. There is also worry about oxides of Nitrogen - but 79% of the air we breathe is Nitrogen!

I feel that before HMG start bashing the modern diesel car driver they should look at other causes of pollution of which I suggest:-
any diesel car older than 10 years
older buses and coaches
older lorries and vans
construction site plant especially diesel generators that are often running 24/7
agricultural vehicles many of which are old and few of which comply with Euro-anything
diesel trains - especially the older ones based on buses - that should have been scrapped years ago

It does beg the question what happens to overseas vehicles that come to the UK on holiday?

Germany have a good idea - a vignette that shows your vehicle emission class which then defines where you can and cannot go.

Or the French idea where every diesel has a class (again on a vignette) and then limit which class of vehicle is allowed into areas as pollution levels change.

Both of these vignettes are cheap and do not require a vehicle test. The German badge costs €6 and the French one costs under €5 including delivery. Of course if we had such in the UK it would probably cost £20+ per year and require an emissions test to get it.

Cannot see what your point is regarding atmospheric nitrogen and nitrogen oxide. The two are totally different as are H20 and O2.

However, I do agree that the continental system of providing vignette emission stickers to vehicles that show their emission status. We were in Germany and had green sticker for our car, and what was refreshing was that the cities weren't ringed with expensive camera systems to check on the vehicles eligibility. The low cost and effective approach was to use police or council wardens. I suspect in UK we will take the normal overly bureaucratic and expensive option of massed ANPR/CCTV to manage it. So its going to be some time before we notice any changes.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof,
Why all of a sudden is Diesel being looked at and compared to Petrol to see which gives off the most pollutants, I could have saved the people or who ever commissioned the report their money, just stand in a Haulage yard at four-o-clock in the morning surrounded by Lorriies ticking over and you have the answer,

Actually scientifically you don't have the answer, becasue a yard full of lorries will be diesels and that doesn't give you a comparison to the equivalent usage of petrol powered vehicles. But that technicality aside, The vast majority of caravanners will be using cars that are either petrol or diesel powered, so for those who wish to be ecologically minded they may wish to choose a car as a tow vehicle which produces lower emissions.

For some it may also affect their daily commute, if cities introduce emission based surcharges for road usage or parking, so having access to such studies can help to make an informed decision. These studies would be bloated with irrelevant information if they also looked a wood burning stoves, and the outputs for power stations in China or US etc.

But another aspect is fact that how you burn a fuel will impact on the spectrum and toxicity of all the emissions that are produced so for example fuel burnt in an engine will produce a different spectrum of emissions to the same fuel burnt in a atmospheric burner. Its also apparent the same fuel burnt in engines from different manufacturers will produce a different spectrum and proportions, so nothing is cut and dried.

In a wider context , individuals have little say in the choices of fuel sources used at power stations but they can choose what fuel they use at home and in cars etc. Wood burning is far more ecologically sensible than fossil fuels as they are considered to be renewable, and the in particular the CO2 produce will be balanced by the amount recombined into the currently growing biomass.

Even if our individual impact on worldwide harmful emissions is minute, does that mean we should ignore the issue? No every small step will take as individuals to reduce finite amount of emission and will reduce the total impact on or world, and set an example to others.

 

[Gafferbill]

Greater London already has a Low Emission Zone policed by ANPR and other means which has a daily charge for non exempt vehicles of £100/day.
Fail to pay and you can get a fine of £250 which rises if you do not pay straight away.

My diesel tow car and diesel run about are both exempt .

 

[Woodentop]

Diesels are already taxed at different rates based on emissions, my objection to over charging to use dirty vehicles is that it does nothing to solve the pollution problem it just says if you can pay you can pollute, and what happens to brake and tyre dust that all vehicles produce, even electric ones, that must be breathed in by pedestrians and cyclists along with other pollutants, an din 6 years time they will change their minds again and decide something else is causing the end of the world

Very definitely +1

 

[otherclive]

Greater London already has a Low Emission Zone policed by ANPR and other means which has a daily charge for non exempt vehicles of £100/day.
Fail to pay and you can get a fine of £250 which rises if you do not pay straight away.

My diesel tow car and diesel run about are both exempt .

And the ULEZ will co-incide withe the Congestion Charging Zone so the infrastructure is in place to police it. But compared to London's wealth many other cities won't have the finances to install such infrastructure and could take several years to implement real change,wheras the European approach can start with a few street signs and those council staff already on the streets. Of course we could always award the work to a third party contractor who will require a profit margin.

 

[JRS1]

Just thought this might answer some of your Q.and IMHO a great product,well worth the time and effort in checking it out. www.Cgon.co.uk it's both money saving( MPH) on all vehicles & meets all the new regs. Etc.

Cheers jrs

 

[Woodentop]

Just thought this might answer some of your Q.and IMHO a great product,well worth the time and effort in checking it out. www.Cgon.co.uk it's both money saving( MPH) on all vehicles & meets all the new regs. Etc.

Cheers jrs

Just read about it. What I don't understand is where it gets the hydrogen from?

 

[JRS1]

Hi woodentop, thier web site has the answers in Questions/ Answers you will find this most informative regardsJrs1