kerb weight confusion

[muzzy]

Hi

we are just about to jump into the world of caravan ownership and currently trying to overcome the first hurdle of my vehicle weight, max tow weight and nose weights!

God its a nightmare!

firstly, i cant find the kerb weight for my car. I can find later models but not ours, which is a 2000 Ford Focus 1.8 TDi 115psi.

Once i have that weight (which isn't on the log book) we can start to decide what caravan to get!

Any help appreciated.

Secondly, when working from the kerb weight, can you add the weight of the towbar to that as it is now a permenant fixture to the car?

any help appreciated

lots more questions to come in sure!

 

[emmitdb]

Greetings Muzzy to the mad mad world of caravans.

You have put us on the spot HOWEVER, to save time I can tell you that a Focus 3 door of 2002 vintage does NOT HAVE TYPE APPROVAL FOR TOWING.

Can you please respond and say whether it is 3 door or 5 door?

 

[Lutz]

Where have you unearthed that information from, Del? My database tells me that the Focus 1.8 TDi has a maximum permissible towload of 1400kg and it doesn't differentiate between 3 and 5 door.

The only really accurate way of finding out what the kerbweight is if it is not shown in the logbook is to weigh the car. Any published figures can only be a rough guideline and then it's unimportant whether you add the weight of the towbar or not.

 

[emmitdb]

Where have you unearthed that information from, Del? My database tells me that the Focus 1.8 TDi has a maximum permissible towload of 1400kg and it doesn't differentiate between 3 and 5 door.

The only really accurate way of finding out what the kerbweight is if it is not shown in the logbook is to weigh the car. Any published figures can only be a rough guideline and then it's unimportant whether you add the weight of the towbar or not.

Evening Lutz

Abelgratis has the 2002 3door as not type approved.

I thought it strange as it lists the 2 Litre Duratec as well.

 

[muzzy]

sorry, should have stated its a 5 door estate

 

[Lutz]

It's also illogical that there should be a difference between 3 door and 5 door.

I'm sorry, but I have to correct my figure (typo error). It should have been 1300kg , not 1400kg.

 

[emmitdb]

Thanks for that.

As Lutz has stated the only real weigh(couldn't resist that!!!) to find your vehicles weight is to weigh it. The reason being that people order 'bolt on' extras when new and that alters the kerb weight.

Fill it with diesel, take it to the weigh bridge and get a ticket.

Next bit seems complicated but isn't.

The caravan you want to buy has two weights.

They are called the MIRO which stands for Mass in Running Order and

the MTPLM which stands for Maximux Technically Permitted Laden Mass.

The MIRO is, if you like the kerb weight of the caravan ie the van as it stands with nothing in it(except for the battery and a gas bottle.)

The MTPLM is the maximum weight that the manufacturer says you can get the caravan to weigh, ie After the wife has laden it with her clothes, her chair, and all the food. It can't weigh any more.

I won't call the next bit a rule because it isn't enshrined in law. Its a convention that says that the caravan, fully laden (ie the MTPLM) shall not weigh more than 85% of the kerb weight of the caravan.

Now, if you look through this forum you will find umpteen people that say "I drive at 99% etc. Well, let them. You are a novice (I hope I am not wrong there) and that 'Convention' is there for your guidance. This is especially so bearing in mind that you are considering towing with what, in effect, is a small vehicle (towing wise) and therefore your choice as far as caravans is somewhat limited.

There are other proper laws out there as well regarding what any individual may or not tow but, providing that you are going to use your Focus, I will not dwell on them here because, put simply they will not apply to you providing you comply with the above convention (I'll let others try to explain).

After you have ploughed your way through the above here is a ball park answer to your original question.

IF your Focus should have a kerb weight of 1295kgs then the caravan you should be looking for would have an MTPLM of around 1100kgs because 1100kgs is 85% of 1295kgs.

You COULD buy a van of an MTPLM slightly over 1100kgs and you wouldn't be committing any cardinal sins but I can tell you that the more van that is behind you, the less you will enjoy the experience. Go over it by any distance and you could be putting yourself into a place that you don't want to go.

 

[emmitdb]

It's also illogical that there should be a difference between 3 door and 5 door.

I'm sorry, but I have to correct my figure (typo error). It should have been 1300kg , not 1400kg.

You're beginning to sound like Mr Sock Lutz and I totally agree with you. It is illogical.

 

[muzzy]

thanks for the detailed info, although i think you had a typo in the middle and should have said 85% of the car weight not the caravan?!

ok, without weighing it, i might still do that, going on a weight of approx 1300kg for the car kerb weight, i am starting to understand he weight of caravan i can go for.

getting somewhere now

 

[emmitdb]

thanks for the detailed info, although i think you had a typo in the middle and should have said 85% of the car weight not the caravan?!

ok, without weighing it, i might still do that, going on a weight of approx 1300kg for the car kerb weight, i am starting to understand he weight of caravan i can go for.

getting somewhere now

You are right Muzzy (well spotted)

The caravan should be no more than 85% of the car.

 

[emmitdb]

I would add Muzzy that the reason I strongly suggest that you stick to the 85% is that your car does not have an abundance of power and therefore you don't have huge reserves of grunt that can help in certain circs.

Come back with as many questions as you like. We all started somewhere.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi muzzy

Very good info given to you so far and 100% correct I am one of those who tow a outfit @98% and it tows very well but then I do have over 30years experience towing trailers. would I recommend it absolutly not" and for a beginer no way.

I would comment however on a couple of points that may be of interest,

1. choose you van very carefully they can be hard to get rid of and expensive to change if you get it wrong, make a list of what you would like in it ie; no of berths, end washroom, fixed bed, ect, take a sunday to look at as many vans as possible in as many places as possible, noting the make, size, weight, ect, try and find your ideal van and see if it matches the weight restraints of you car. if it does then go and look for that particular van that your happy with "caution" you may have to make some compromises to find the right one at the right price.

NB. at some point everybody wishes their van was a bit bigger or had a bit more of this or that but that is all part of caravanning but dont try and be too ambitious to start with.

2. I am supprised that you have had trouble finding the weights for your car because they should on a 2000 be on the vin plate if you look there will be figures stamped on it 1. unladen weight and maybe the GVW (gross vehicle weight) 2. max trailer weight 3. the biggest figure max gross train weight. the last one is the most important because it is the total weight that the car can pull ie: total mass of the car + the total mass of the trailer added together. if you have the original car papers one of the booklets should be a towing guide with all the relevent figures in it, however these figures are the max and you should be looking as far as practical below these as possible.

3. your car like mine is not new and you are changing its use to a tow car so things like brakes, steering, suspension, and tyres are crucial and should be in tip top condition or renewed as required, AND don't forget to tell your insurance company that you tow a trailer with it.

I hope this all helps

colin.

 

[Lutz]

Unless Ford is an exception, the kerbweight is not to be found on the vehicle plate. The plate normally only gives details which are legally significant, i.e. the GVW, the GTW (Gross Train Weight), and the maximum permitted front and rear axle loads.

 

[602]

Hi,

I ought to know, so slap my wrist.

A group B licence holder is restricted to towing not more than the UNLADEN weight of the car.

The manufacturer decides the maximum that the car can tow.

So where IN LEGISLATION, does the KERB weight become relevent?

602

 

[Lutz]

I was referring to legislation regarding the technical aspect of the towcar only. The plating requirements that the car manufacturer has to fulfil only cover such items and not any driving licence restrictions for which the driver, not the car manufacturer, is held responsible. It is for this reason that the mass is service (kerbweight) should be entered in the V5c document, not on the VIN plate.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Greetings Muzzy to the mad mad world of caravans.

You have put us on the spot HOWEVER, to save time I can tell you that a Focus 3 door of 2002 vintage does NOT HAVE TYPE APPROVAL FOR TOWING.

Can you please respond and say whether it is 3 door or 5 door?

Hello Del,

As you point out your figures relate to the 2002 model not the 2000 Muzzy has.

This also goes to show that third party databases cannot be relied upon to give accurate information.

I also note that the web site you quote dose not seem to have been updated recently. From sampling just a few of the marks it seems that the last update was in 2007.

It also goes to show that

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

"Unless Ford is an exception, the kerbweight is not to be found on the vehicle plate. The plate normally only gives details which are legally significant, i.e. the GVW, the GTW (Gross Train Weight), and the maximum permitted front and rear axle loads."

quite right lutz my mistake it is the GVW and the GTW that I was refering to but somehow did not get that across in my post. I was trying not to be too technical for a newbie in explaining how one could work out the max trailer weight ie:-

my car has these weighs on the vin plate.

1. 1650kg "is the gross vehicle weight"

2. 2550kg "is the gross train weight"

so deduct 1. from 2. gives a max trailer weight of 1100kg.

this in it's simplist form gives the main legal requirements of towing with this vehicle direct from the vin plate.

there are ways of jiggling round these figures and still be legal but then you enter a minefield of conflicting data having to weigh everything so no item exeeds it's maximum value.

something a newbie would definitly not want to get into.

colin

 

[Zafiral]

Colin - sorry to correct your maths, but with the figures you state there, you can only tow a caravan of 900kg (assuming you have the car full to the GVW)

 

[Glenn_5132962]

Sorry to be contradicting but the MIRO of a caravan is its weight as delivered from the factory. This does not include a battery or gas bottle.

 

[Lutz]

Sorry to be contradicting but the MIRO of a caravan is its weight as delivered from the factory. This does not include a battery or gas bottle.

Some caravans are fitted ex-works with a battery, though. In such cases the battery is, of course, included.

 

[muzzy]

well i found teh vin plate with the weights on, but this does not show the kerb weight.

only the max train weight and teh max vehicle weight loaded.

I have just got back from a public weighbridge and the car weighed up at 1340kg with a full tank of fuel and nothing in it except my littleun's car seat, a tow rope and a first aid box. So say 1320kg kerb weight.

This means on the 85% rule i can tow 1122kg.

Now if the car is loaded with me, wife and child, plus car seat, clothes, food, pushchair, i reckon that puts the weight of the car at around 1550kg

max train weight is 2955kg

minus above figure of 1550kg = 1405kg

so, corect me if im wrong, but the max weight caravan i should be looking for is around 1000kg, that allows me 122kg of weight inside the caravan which would consist of awning, gas, battery, bedding, kitchen utensils.

do you think that all sounds reasonable?

thanks

steve

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi steve

in a nutshell yes it does sound ok based on the figures you have given, may be a little conservative for some but a van with a MTPLM of under 1200kg with a lowish MIRO shold be fine after all the awning can go in the car boot if required

colin

 

[muzzy]

thanks.

well ive never towed anything bigger than a trailer tent before so a little nervous about the whole thing. id rather go conservative at this stage )

 

[smiley]

After reading the posts I have got my log book out.

It doesn't state any towing weights it is blank, so doing the intelligent thing I got out my hand book for the car.

Aha, found it it tells me I have to work out my weights. Doh....I have a vauxhall, rather than using hubbys car all the time for the van I was thinking of having a bar put on my car....Looked on the net nothing comes up...

 

[ProfJohnL]

well i found teh vin plate with the weights on, but this does not show the kerb weight.

only the max train weight and teh max vehicle weight loaded.

I have just got back from a public weighbridge and the car weighed up at 1340kg with a full tank of fuel and nothing in it except my littleun's car seat, a tow rope and a first aid box. So say 1320kg kerb weight.

This means on the 85% rule i can tow 1122kg.

Now if the car is loaded with me, wife and child, plus car seat, clothes, food, pushchair, i reckon that puts the weight of the car at around 1550kg

max train weight is 2955kg

minus above figure of 1550kg = 1405kg

so, corect me if im wrong, but the max weight caravan i should be looking for is around 1000kg, that allows me 122kg of weight inside the caravan which would consist of awning, gas, battery, bedding, kitchen utensils.

do you think that all sounds reasonable?

thanks

steve

Hi Muzzy

85% is definitely not a rule, it is only a suggestion. Towing ratio only form part of a series of considerations that go towards the towing characteristics of an outfit.

Provided the trailer is within the manufactureres max weight allowance don't worry if its 90%, though it is good practice to keep it as low as possible. I just wish people would stop using 85% as a golden cure all figure, it isn't.