Emmerson
I would have used a phrase like "I can't agree with your comments" rather than "utter rubbish" which comes across as rude and abrupt.
I would have used a phrase like "I can't agree with your comments" rather than "utter rubbish" which comes across as rude and abrupt.
emmerson thats fair play at least like me your honest,i,ll tell you the gist of it ,the conversion was
Emmerson
I can understand your reasoning now I have the facts. In your case its a sensible option if you are a V8 enthusiast.
What I can,t understand, if you read the post from Andy lower down, is why anyone would convert a citroen xsara 2.0 to lpg when a diesel version would give excellent mpg.
A V8 I can understand , but a 2.0 xsara?
I can understand your reasoning now I have the facts. In your case its a sensible option if you are a V8 enthusiast.
What I can,t understand, if you read the post from Andy lower down, is why anyone would convert a citroen xsara 2.0 to lpg when a diesel version would give excellent mpg.
A V8 I can understand , but a 2.0 xsara?
I think you are right Cliff, doesn't make sense on a small engine. Also on a new vehicle your warranty may become invalid.
CliveV apparently knows a company which converts Smart cars! My local converter recently did a Fiat Punto. No, I can't make sense of it either. As I said earlier, to each his own!
Emmerson,
I trust we are still friends , and able to continue the friendly banter ?
After all we share the same interest..................caravans!
I trust we are still friends , and able to continue the friendly banter ?
After all we share the same interest..................caravans!
No problem, Danny. Differences of opinion stimulate the brain!
It's good to be able to differ on this forum without resorting to personal insults, which used to happen all to frequently. I look forward to the next one!!
Apart from the LPG being cheaper than petrol or diesel most of the Smart cars are used to commute into London. They can find small places to park in and they don't pay the congestion charge !
LPG is an excellent fuel. It gives me a real buzz to run my vehicle on the waste product of the production of the dirty fuels that most others use.
It produces considerably less pollution than diesel and petrol - if you want proof - look at a diesel/petrol exhaust and also look at the front of your caravan (especially with a diesel!!!!) after a longish journey.
Would you really want to have a petrol or diesel fire in your caravan to cook with or keep warm - or would you rather have the Butane/Propane clean burning stoves and heaters that you already have???? Anyone seen a petrol fire?
Bit of a no brainier that one isn't it. But we are still happy to burn oil and petrol to transport us to our campsites?
Let's look at the cost?
Whatever the cost of conversion - you will get your money back and be in profit at some time in the future with LPG at c47p per litre and petrol/diesel in the 90p range.
As for the conversion - well most saloon cars can have a neat tank where the spare wheel goes and then have the tyres treated with the puncture preventing goo that is now available. Of course 4x4's make it easy because they have places to hang the tanks from so the original petrol tank can be retained.
LPG is so clean you can actually remove the Catalytic Converters! - You do not have to as they remain clean on LPG, but removing then actually helps the engine perform more efficiently. Anyone who has suffered the cost of replacing these things will know that they are not cheap! About 1/3 to
It produces considerably less pollution than diesel and petrol - if you want proof - look at a diesel/petrol exhaust and also look at the front of your caravan (especially with a diesel!!!!) after a longish journey.
Would you really want to have a petrol or diesel fire in your caravan to cook with or keep warm - or would you rather have the Butane/Propane clean burning stoves and heaters that you already have???? Anyone seen a petrol fire?
Bit of a no brainier that one isn't it. But we are still happy to burn oil and petrol to transport us to our campsites?
Let's look at the cost?
Whatever the cost of conversion - you will get your money back and be in profit at some time in the future with LPG at c47p per litre and petrol/diesel in the 90p range.
As for the conversion - well most saloon cars can have a neat tank where the spare wheel goes and then have the tyres treated with the puncture preventing goo that is now available. Of course 4x4's make it easy because they have places to hang the tanks from so the original petrol tank can be retained.
LPG is so clean you can actually remove the Catalytic Converters! - You do not have to as they remain clean on LPG, but removing then actually helps the engine perform more efficiently. Anyone who has suffered the cost of replacing these things will know that they are not cheap! About 1/3 to
As regards what cars are suitable for LPG conversion I suggest people look at some of the feedback from both private owners and Fleet operators re LPG.
One Fleet operator asks the question - "can we ignore LPG".
You can read the answer yourself:-
http://www.boostlpg.co.uk/what_is/What Customers Say.htm
But no surprizes - the answer is "NO"!!
One Fleet operator asks the question - "can we ignore LPG".
You can read the answer yourself:-
http://www.boostlpg.co.uk/what_is/What Customers Say.htm
But no surprizes - the answer is "NO"!!
- Mar 14, 2005
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Count your blessings that more people don't do it, Dave, because if they did, you can be absolutely sure that the government will seize the opportunity and tax LPG to a level that makes conversion unattractive. The German government already has. As from next year, LPG will be taxed at a rate almost equivalent to that of petrol. Only CNG remains exempted from the tax hike at least until 2012.
Yes Lutz, but do not forget that diesel in Europe is on average about 25% cheaper than petrol.
That is the real reason why LPG conversions ore not viable. With the greater MPG available from and oil burner and the diesel being cheaper in the first place - it is a no brainier for you guys in Europe!
I met with a client of mine who lives in France just before Christmas and he said that whilst petrol costs had moved towards those in the UK, France had placed their Road Fund Licence onto fuel costs. But that diesel was still about 75 to 80% of the cost of petrol.
As long as diesel is more expensive in the UK than petrol and LPG is taxed at 50% of the level that petrol is (guaranteed for a further three years) then the UK will remain a good place for
LPG
That is the real reason why LPG conversions ore not viable. With the greater MPG available from and oil burner and the diesel being cheaper in the first place - it is a no brainier for you guys in Europe!
I met with a client of mine who lives in France just before Christmas and he said that whilst petrol costs had moved towards those in the UK, France had placed their Road Fund Licence onto fuel costs. But that diesel was still about 75 to 80% of the cost of petrol.
As long as diesel is more expensive in the UK than petrol and LPG is taxed at 50% of the level that petrol is (guaranteed for a further three years) then the UK will remain a good place for
LPG
In France I've seen a steady flow of a wide variety of French cars large, medium and small at the LPG pumps. I guess someone is converting them or is there a factory fitted option that we in the UK are not party to ?
- Mar 14, 2005
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Don't ask me how the various governments do their sums to work out how to tax the general public but in the end they'll always make sure they find a way of getting at your money.
It is true that diesel fuel is significantly cheaper in Germany than petrol but then road tax on diesels is so much higher. The breakeven point is usually somewhere around 10000 miles annually but varies depending on the purchase price differential.
I don't know what the situation regarding factory-fitted LPG systems in France is but many manufacturers in Germany offer LPG or CNG systems as regular production options on selected models. LPG is not quite as popular here but sales of well over 10000 units of the CNG version of the Zafira make it the most popular single model of any optional factory-fitted gas system here. Unfortunately, it disqualifies itself as a towcar because in its CNG version it only has a max. 400kg towload!!! I would therefore advise anybody contemplating conversion of their car to gas to check with the manufacturer whether its max. towload is in any way affected.
Ford and Saab have gone another way and are now offering their cars with ethanol systems as standard. The big advantage is that the fuel tank remains unmodified and one can drive on whichever fuel you put into the tank. Ethanol is about 75% of the price of petrol here which makes it very attractive but the pump density is still relatively thin. It's a big thing, however, in Sweden where most new cars are ethanol-powered and the fuel is readily available at every petrol station. But there again, however, it's probably only a matter of time before the government closes the next tax gap.
It is true that diesel fuel is significantly cheaper in Germany than petrol but then road tax on diesels is so much higher. The breakeven point is usually somewhere around 10000 miles annually but varies depending on the purchase price differential.
I don't know what the situation regarding factory-fitted LPG systems in France is but many manufacturers in Germany offer LPG or CNG systems as regular production options on selected models. LPG is not quite as popular here but sales of well over 10000 units of the CNG version of the Zafira make it the most popular single model of any optional factory-fitted gas system here. Unfortunately, it disqualifies itself as a towcar because in its CNG version it only has a max. 400kg towload!!! I would therefore advise anybody contemplating conversion of their car to gas to check with the manufacturer whether its max. towload is in any way affected.
Ford and Saab have gone another way and are now offering their cars with ethanol systems as standard. The big advantage is that the fuel tank remains unmodified and one can drive on whichever fuel you put into the tank. Ethanol is about 75% of the price of petrol here which makes it very attractive but the pump density is still relatively thin. It's a big thing, however, in Sweden where most new cars are ethanol-powered and the fuel is readily available at every petrol station. But there again, however, it's probably only a matter of time before the government closes the next tax gap.
LPG in France has gone up a lot in the last year or so (also very hard to get in Spain) and it's creeping up here. The cheapest near me is now 49.9p per litre. It use to be 39.9p per litre.
If I were considering converting to LPG now I wouldn't do it. Given the increase in fuel cost and the lack of filling stations in the South East (try getting LPG on the M25). I remember reading three years about how the number of filling stations were increasing on a weekly basis. Well, not near me; no new ones and one has closed.
With the newer diesels which some are so refined that you can't tell it's a diesel and the pulling power, diesl is the way to go now.
If I were considering converting to LPG now I wouldn't do it. Given the increase in fuel cost and the lack of filling stations in the South East (try getting LPG on the M25). I remember reading three years about how the number of filling stations were increasing on a weekly basis. Well, not near me; no new ones and one has closed.
With the newer diesels which some are so refined that you can't tell it's a diesel and the pulling power, diesl is the way to go now.
I agree that LPG has gone up - we pay 46.9 at our nearest Shell Garage and 48.9 at our local Total garage.
I too used to pay 39.9 but then petrol was 78.9!!!! and look at it now! N- Look a diesel now!
I have Petrol stations with LPG all around me and have never had a problem on the M25! - Mainly because there are so few service stations anyway!! I can top up at Fleet on the M3 and the Winchester Services sell it as well.
Don't forget you can fill up on LPG in some of the oddest places (often cheaper than at a petrol station!!!) - Calor Gas centres are usually tucked away on industrial estates as are other suppliers.
Local business firms that run LPG fleets often allow the public to fill up as well. There is a firm at Bournemouth International Airport where you can do this and whilst this was useful some years ago, now that the Shell garage up the road sells the stuff, I have not been there for some time.
Must go back and check out the price.
I agree diesels seem to be the way to go, but even so, it is hard to get away from the simple fact that even at 46.9 p/L I can run my 3.9litre V8 Discovery at an equivalent of close to 40 MPG when solo and 36 MPG when towing. Now with the cost of diesel in the UK being that much higher I estimate that for me to get the equivalent economy I would need to achieve 47 mpg solo and about 42 mpg towing. Not insurmountable I grant you. But my sons 200TDi Discovery gets no where near that.
Neither do the large tow cars such as the 3.0L BMW's and Jaguars so beloved of certain, now "passed on", members of this Forum
Then fold in the environmental and engine wear benefits and LPG makes sense to me.
As for LPG in Spain - up until recently LPG was not taxed there at all but it was restricted to Municipal Vehicles only. But you could still get it as a holiday maker but you needed to plan your journey well.
It was worth it when you could get it at about 15p a litre! (God that was GOOD! - I still dream about the Shell Garage in Santanda!)
But as I travel in Spain a lot, that is one reason why the conversion I had done on the Discovery was to have two under slung tanks and retain the original petrol tank. The far neater conversion is to have a "round" tank where the petrol tank was and a smaller petrol tank fitted up in the rear wing.
This works well in the UK and France Holland etc, but not good for Spain.
The advantage of my system is that I can load up on cheap LPG, cheap petrol and run for miles and miles without filling up.
But usually in the UK I have a gallon of petrol sloshing about in a wacking great big tank for emergencies and just enjoy cheap motoring via LPG at 46.9p per litre
I too used to pay 39.9 but then petrol was 78.9!!!! and look at it now! N- Look a diesel now!
I have Petrol stations with LPG all around me and have never had a problem on the M25! - Mainly because there are so few service stations anyway!! I can top up at Fleet on the M3 and the Winchester Services sell it as well.
Don't forget you can fill up on LPG in some of the oddest places (often cheaper than at a petrol station!!!) - Calor Gas centres are usually tucked away on industrial estates as are other suppliers.
Local business firms that run LPG fleets often allow the public to fill up as well. There is a firm at Bournemouth International Airport where you can do this and whilst this was useful some years ago, now that the Shell garage up the road sells the stuff, I have not been there for some time.
Must go back and check out the price.
I agree diesels seem to be the way to go, but even so, it is hard to get away from the simple fact that even at 46.9 p/L I can run my 3.9litre V8 Discovery at an equivalent of close to 40 MPG when solo and 36 MPG when towing. Now with the cost of diesel in the UK being that much higher I estimate that for me to get the equivalent economy I would need to achieve 47 mpg solo and about 42 mpg towing. Not insurmountable I grant you. But my sons 200TDi Discovery gets no where near that.
Neither do the large tow cars such as the 3.0L BMW's and Jaguars so beloved of certain, now "passed on", members of this Forum
Then fold in the environmental and engine wear benefits and LPG makes sense to me.
As for LPG in Spain - up until recently LPG was not taxed there at all but it was restricted to Municipal Vehicles only. But you could still get it as a holiday maker but you needed to plan your journey well.
It was worth it when you could get it at about 15p a litre! (God that was GOOD! - I still dream about the Shell Garage in Santanda!)
But as I travel in Spain a lot, that is one reason why the conversion I had done on the Discovery was to have two under slung tanks and retain the original petrol tank. The far neater conversion is to have a "round" tank where the petrol tank was and a smaller petrol tank fitted up in the rear wing.
This works well in the UK and France Holland etc, but not good for Spain.
The advantage of my system is that I can load up on cheap LPG, cheap petrol and run for miles and miles without filling up.
But usually in the UK I have a gallon of petrol sloshing about in a wacking great big tank for emergencies and just enjoy cheap motoring via LPG at 46.9p per litre
Micheal , not sure where you live, but I just checked out my sat navs that has not been updated for some months and for example Sevenoaks has 10 LPG garages arund the area. LPG stations seem quite plentiful in Kent and the data is now about 10 months out of date.
Agreed cris - mine shows the same.
These days it is rare that a Motorway Service does not have LPG.
But it is worth while checking rather than just assuming.
These days it is rare that a Motorway Service does not have LPG.
But it is worth while checking rather than just assuming.
I heard that a lots of Safeways have changed to Morrisons and that there station are all being upgraded with LPG along with most BP stations.
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Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.
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